1300 or 1800 (a.k.a Special Snowflake or TDEE)?

bflytilidy
bflytilidy Posts: 27
in Health and Weight Loss
Hi! I'm a newbie and trying to figure out how many calories to set as my target. The reason I'm on MFP is because I "successfully" lost 40lbs in 4 months about 2 years ago. Obviously I was not very successful since I not only gained the 40lbs back, but another 15. Although I lost the weight by eating mostly clean, made-from-scratch foods, I only counted calories for a few weeks until I got the hang of it. I would say I roughly ate 1200-1300 calories and did not eat back exercise calories because I was unaware of the concept, but likely did consume an extra snack or two when I worked out because I was hungrier, so maybe on those days I ate closer to 1400 or so. I worked out on average 4 times per week, 40 minutes of cardio and minimal strength training (once or twice a week). I probably burned about 275-350 calories during a typical session.

So I'm here now confused about my caloric goals. Like a lot of people, I initially went for the 1200. I felt satiated because I eat fairly healthy foods, but I have been exhausted. I even had difficulty with my usual gym routine on Tuesday night. I wasn't sure if it was just me adjusting or just life stresses. I've eaten a bit more generously the last couple days and feel better today.

I've been doing some research re TDEE versus a very low caloric intake. I like the concept and I believe part of the reason I gained weight back so quickly was because I consumed too little when dieting. However, I did also stop going to the gym, started going to a bunch of happy hours and dinners, and drank more than ever. So now I really don't know how to approach dieting this time. I understand the science behind TDEE versus overly restricting, but my issue with it is that eating 1836 calories (my TDEE-20%) seems too high when consuming healthy foods. I know... I know... I obviously ate a lot more than 1836 to get here again, but I think a lot of that was alcohol and laziness.

Like I said, I ate more this week than the avg. 1200 or so last week. On Monday it was 1659, Tuesday only 1317 net after exercise, Wednesday 1408. But today only 1278, even though I aimed for 1500. Although I'm not happy that I ate oatmeal for breakfast and an over processed lunch, I felt satiated today and energetic, and like the amount of food I consumed was right for me.

So, after my long explanation (sorry!) I'm trying to determine if I should just listen to my body and aim for 1300 since that's what I seem to respond to best and that's what "worked" for me in the past or if I should stop living in the past and step on board with eating TDEE of 1836? I guess on exercise days if I was to eat back my calories on the 1300 approach, I'd be at 1650 (adding estimated 350 to 1300), so that's pretty close. But I don't think I was that diligent about eating back exercise calls before, maybe an extra 100 calls or so (some almonds or a yogurt).

I obviously don't want to keep yo-yoing and want to do things in a healthy way so I can finally maintain, but I also don't want to eat more than I'm hungry for and I don't want it to take a whole year (I know how that sounds, just trying to be honest).

Some stats:

Female, 5'8", 34, have ranged in weight from 118 (18) to 218 (34)

SW: 218 (10/28)
CW: 210 (11/14, but it's always fast in the beginning... Have been stalling now for almost a week)
GW: 165 (I'm larger boned and I like keeping some of my curves, this is a toned size 10 for me)

iifym using Katch-McCardle (37% body fat) calculator:
BRM: 1669
TDEE: 2295
TDEE-20%: 1836

I know there isn't a magical answer, but I'd welcome your input. Thanks!
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Replies

  • samrockrocks
    samrockrocks Posts: 251 Member
    I say ultimately listen to your body, but set your goals for 15-20% below your TDEE. That number should be adjusted after about every 5 pounds you lose. This is the calculator I see a LOT on here and use myself: http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/

    It's also generally suggested that you eat back your exercise calories... or half.. it's highly debated around here. Like you said, listen to your body.
  • Siansonea
    Siansonea Posts: 917 Member
    Fewer calories will result in sustained weight loss. If you eat "TDEE", you're basically at maintenance, and you won't lose weight.
  • bflytilidy
    bflytilidy Posts: 27
    The 1800 is TDEE minus 20%, I should adjust my title but it doesn't look like I can.
  • Justkeepswimmin
    Justkeepswimmin Posts: 777 Member
    If you're truly doing any strength training then yes the 1800 and eat back exercise calories (or atleast half)

    Also the first time around did you have planned cheat days? You don't have to cut out all treats and alcohol....you'll go crazy and give up again! Allow X/year/month whatever.
  • carolina822
    carolina822 Posts: 155 Member
    My numbers are pretty similar to yours, and I recently readjusted my calories using the katch-mccardle TDEE calculation and settled on 1850. Setting it lower and eating back exercise calories kept me at maintenance level for two months, so apparently I was either eating more than I thought I was or not burning as many calories as I thought I was (or some combo of the two) along with feeling more deprived than I'd like to on a daily basis which led to eating crap late at night that would never even ordinarily be a temptation. And I've already dropped 3 pounds since.

    So, I'd set it at your KM-20% number, keep up with your normal fitness plan (assuming you included it as part of your TDEE calculation), and see how that goes. You may end up being able to eat a little more, or need a little less, but I'm finding that it's a lot more manageable to have one calorie goal and not have it bounce all over the place because I took a longer walk one day.
  • cafeaulait7
    cafeaulait7 Posts: 2,459 Member
    I'd eat a little more than you are now, yeah, at least a few days a week.

    Iffym using Katch-McCardle (37% body fat) calculator:
    BRM: 1669
    TDEE: 2295
    TDEE-20%: 1836

    It's the BMR that is likely why you are getting so tired. I did it this time, too, but mine were NETs that dipped too low. I found that every time I had a day that netted under my BMR by too much (100-200 calories, I think it was), I had to eat extra calories the next day or I'd get bad symptoms the following day. I couldn't just eat my normal deficit.

    Granted, I should eat it on the same day I run the higher deficit, but usually there's some reason I can't ;) My point is to eat the over-deficit amount by the next day, imho.

    I'm sure some folks can feel fine while dipping under their BMR, but it doesn't sound like you are one of them. It's not recommended anyway, and I'm sure there are good reasons for that :)

    So I'd aim for more calories for you, yes, definitely. I don't know that you have to hit 1800+ often, but do hit it some, imho (every few days). And watch that BMR!!

    edit- I should probably add that my advice is because you seem to find it hard to get the calories and you have already done a 'crash' diet before and didn't crash yourself. It's really best to just do TDEE-20 and do the exercise that includes. Have 1-2 glasses of wine with dinner some nights :) Or not. Just don't go all crazy-low, no. There is an in-between ;)
  • bflytilidy
    bflytilidy Posts: 27
    @samrockrocks - I'm liking the sound of your approach...

    @Justkeepswimm - My strength training is pretty minimal - I use like 5 of the machines for 3 reps of 10 or 15. Working on increasing this. Unfortunately, I'm a bit all or nothing, so I don't do well with cheat days. I had a few cheat days last time - Vegas weekend and then a couple of weekends during the last month when I started loosening up as I neared my goal.

    @carolina822 - Yes, I chose light activity for the TDEE calculation. I do like the idea of one calorie goal...
  • bflytilidy
    bflytilidy Posts: 27
    @cafeaulait7 - that's a very good point. Maybe I feel much better today because I ate more during the previous couple of days. I have to get the notion that I must eat the 1800 every single day out of my head. I like the idea of averaging near that instead, where maybe I don't eat the calorie surplus until the next day when I feel I need it.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    if 1800 cals/day is your TDEE -20% eat that, if you still have quite a bit of fat to lose

    if you're trying to lose the last few lbs, TDEE -10% is better

    sorry I didn't read all your OP it was a bit long.

    also: make sure you're tracking and logging carefully.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    I noticed an couple of incorrect response above where they said go ahead and to TDEE deficit method, and then eat back your exercise calories or a portion thereof.

    That is wrong if you included exercise in your TDEE level estimate.

    Your lower eating level prior, if you had added exercise calories back on per MFP method, would have probably gotten you right back up to where you are thinking sounds high right now.

    The usually end up close - depends on what motivates you more.

    Deficit every day exercise or not, but if you exercise you get to eat more.
    Or eating level is based on planned exercise, you so better do it or not as much deficit there.

    TDEE deficit method is nice because you really can plan well - same calories every day, no big jumps.

    Use the spreadsheet on my profile page to get best estimate of everything though, because likely you've burned off some muscle mass from past effort. And better activity calc, I doubt you are lightly active, but maybe are...

    But no need shooting your body in the metabolism and not letting be best it can be, save you from yo-yo dieting rest of your life away.

    Sadly you can't listen to your body though, because you can jack up hormones that would otherwise be useful.

    You feeling full has nothing to do with your body being fully fed for what you are asking it to do.
    Use your brain and keep learning.
  • bflytilidy
    bflytilidy Posts: 27
    @neandermagno - thanks for the input!

    @heybales - great point re feeling full not being necessarily indicative of my body being fully fed. My exhaustion is clearly trying to tell me I am under consuming, but I keep minimizing it. Thanks, I will definitely keep learning and for now make my way towards the 1800. :-)
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
    Female, 5'8", 34, have ranged in weight from 118 (18) to 218 (34)

    SW: 218 (10/28)
    CW: 210 (11/14, but it's always fast in the beginning... Have been stalling now for almost a week)
    GW: 165 (I'm larger boned and I like keeping some of my curves, this is a toned size 10 for me)

    iifym using Katch-McCardle (37% body fat) calculator:
    BRM: 1669
    TDEE: 2295
    TDEE-20%: 1836

    I know there isn't a magical answer, but I'd welcome your input. Thanks!

    132 lbs of LBM ? - are you confident in that fat % number ?
  • clambert1273
    clambert1273 Posts: 840 Member
    I am currently using the TDEE method (it works for me) and eat 1600-1900 calories per day depending on my mood/hunger. We had pizza last night and I had ice cream :)

    The only workout I do is heavy lifting 3x week. It seems to be working for me though - down 8.5lbs now (most was water weight I know lol).

    If I were you (again using me - I am 5'8 - 173.5 currently), I would start at 1600 for a week (making sure you hit that!) and see how you feel and where you are. If you are losing still, the next week goal for 1700 - check again. Find the point that is your sweet spot (I know I have one as too little for me will make me an angry woman). I have found mine at the moment and that will change as I lose weight and I am OK with that.

    You don't have to eat like a bird - like I said, I had pizza and ice cream last night (just weighed out) and tonight I am going out with family to a steakhouse and I prelogged it to see the damage so I can adjust. Do what is right for you! :)
  • smc864
    smc864 Posts: 570 Member
    If you are doing the TDEE - 20% method you do NOT eat back your exercise calories. Your exercise is already accounted for in that number.

    If it were me I would go for 1500 calories and then eat back half of my exercise calories if I felt hungry that day. If you do go for 1800 make sure that you are diligent in your logging because you have a smaller margin of error. I like to set my calories a bit low just in case I underestimate my calories accidentally.

    Best of luck!

    ETA: I would DEFINITELY incorporate some form of strength training 2-3 times/week.
  • clambert1273
    clambert1273 Posts: 840 Member
    If you are doing the TDEE - 20% method you do NOT eat back your exercise calories. Your exercise is already accounted for in that number.

    If it were me I would go for 1500 calories and then eat back half of my exercise calories if I felt hungry that day. If you do go for 1800 make sure that you are diligent in your logging because you have a smaller margin of error. I like to set my calories a bit low just in case I underestimate my calories accidentally.

    Best of luck!

    ETA: I would DEFINITELY incorporate some form of strength training 2-3 times/week.

    That is what I do.... I am very anal with my weighing to make sure I am as accurate as possible allowing me some leeway for error :) My scale measures even fluid ounces so when I pour my milk (like today) I make sure it is exactly 8 fl oz... yeah I know - don't judge me :laugh:
  • smc864
    smc864 Posts: 570 Member
    If you are doing the TDEE - 20% method you do NOT eat back your exercise calories. Your exercise is already accounted for in that number.

    If it were me I would go for 1500 calories and then eat back half of my exercise calories if I felt hungry that day. If you do go for 1800 make sure that you are diligent in your logging because you have a smaller margin of error. I like to set my calories a bit low just in case I underestimate my calories accidentally.

    Best of luck!

    ETA: I would DEFINITELY incorporate some form of strength training 2-3 times/week.

    That is what I do.... I am very anal with my weighing to make sure I am as accurate as possible allowing me some leeway for error :) My scale measures even fluid ounces so when I pour my milk (like today) I make sure it is exactly 8 fl oz... yeah I know - don't judge me :laugh:


    I'm right there with you :bigsmile:

    I literally weigh EVERYTHING that goes in my mouth... the tablespoon of creamer and tablespoon of milk that goes into my coffee, the teaspoon of mustard that goes on my sandwich... everything. Some might call me obsessive, I'd say I'm thorough. :laugh:
  • lauren3101
    lauren3101 Posts: 1,853 Member
    This is why I don't advocate 1200 calories on most occasions.

    Thing is, like you said, it didn't 'work' for you before, because you gained it all back. Your new approach needs to be accepting this as a lifestyle change, not a diet.

    Eat the 1800 or so. Your body is trying to tell you you aren't eating enough; that's why you are tired.

    I know it seems like a lot of food, but that's because 1800 cals of fruit and veg is a lot more food than 1800 cals of burgers. If you are struggling to eat that much, cook with oil (100 cal per tablespoon), eat full fat yogurts, cheese and milk. Nuts and peanut butter are high calorie yet healthy.

    Remember that the 1800 includes exercise though, so you have to be consistent with your exercise and don't log your exercise calories as additional.
  • SlytherinPrefect
    SlytherinPrefect Posts: 64 Member
    I'm going to chime in and vote for heybales' advice - his spreadsheet for TDEE calculation takes into account body measurements and averaging across several BF% methods, so it's made it really easy for me to figure out my TDEE & how much to eat on a daily basis. If you're a numbers nerd, check it out here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amt7QBR9-c6MdGVTbGswLUUzUHNVVUlNSW9wZWloeUE
  • SlytherinPrefect
    SlytherinPrefect Posts: 64 Member
    I literally weigh EVERYTHING that goes in my mouth... the tablespoon of creamer and tablespoon of milk that goes into my coffee, the teaspoon of mustard that goes on my sandwich... everything. Some might call me obsessive, I'd say I'm thorough. :laugh:

    I love this. I weigh every day and I weigh most of my food (unless it's pre-packaged) and my boyfriend has started to tell me the grams of frozen strawberries he's putting in the smoothies, even though he's not counting calories. Ha! I've converted him! :) But I think as long as a person is not pathological about it (as in, if the scale goes up or they go over by 100 calories, their self-hate switch turns on), more data is always better.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
    You can lose in a healthy way on 1800 or 1300, it's just a trade-off of speed vs. today's comfort level (if 1300 is uncomfortable to you).

    It sounds like you blame regaining on your calorie level last time you lost. I know that's a popular scapegoat here, and maybe your change in LBM is partly responsible, or your feelings of deprivation. But I would hate for someone to think that if they take 3 times as long to lose they're immune to regaining or something. 95% of people just regain. It's really hard to maintain. Of course, the longer you spend losing, the more likely your habits are becoming ingrained. But people who log aren't always necessarily building lifelong habits, either. Logging is unnatural and most of us want to stop, which is why most maintenance plans don't call for logging every bite or point but instead try to teach you to moderate your eating in more natural ways.

    MFP's plan is practically designed to keep you here, which isn't a bad business model.
  • bflytilidy
    bflytilidy Posts: 27
    @yarwell - I use one of those handheld fat monitors and it said 37%. Do you think that seems too high or low? I know those things aren't the most accurate, I use it more to track change. Like when I lost last time, my sweet spot at 165 seemed to be a 10% loss - so 27%. I think I will check out heybale' spreadsheet for more accuracy, or maybe use a different version of the TDEE calculator.

    @WalkingAlong - great points re the risk that in both instances you can gain it back. I seem to fear this even more since I've been back at the starting point several times in my life. Oh and I was definitely laughing out loud re MFP's perfect business model ;)

    Thank you everyone for your replies. I am very diligent about logging, unless it's something like onions or mushrooms, then I may eyeball it. Everything else I use my food scale or measuring cups or the standard package info. I think gradually increasing my calories (after I do a few more measurements/calculations to make sure 1800 is correct) seems to be the way I should go.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Thank you everyone for your replies. I am very diligent about logging, unless it's something like onions or mushrooms, then I may eyeball it. Everything else I use my food scale or measuring cups or the standard package info. I think gradually increasing my calories (after I do a few more measurements/calculations to make sure 1800 is correct) seems to be the way I should go.

    Handheld body comp's just depends, some bodies are good measurements, some not.
    A lot has to do with following the manufacturer's instructions as to when to use it, ect. I've never seen trainers at the gym do that right.

    Do be aware how off the standard package info can be from the weight of what is actually in the package. Especially if you use the MFP food database and select instead of 1 serving which you could weigh on correctly as grams or ounces, you select the Whole Package option.
    Because many times the labeling is honest in "about 3 servings", but by weight it's 3.3 to 3.7 perhaps. But the database entry for Whole Package is just doing 3 x single serving size.

    Good choice on reasonable deficit. can be much easier.
  • smc864
    smc864 Posts: 570 Member
    I literally weigh EVERYTHING that goes in my mouth... the tablespoon of creamer and tablespoon of milk that goes into my coffee, the teaspoon of mustard that goes on my sandwich... everything. Some might call me obsessive, I'd say I'm thorough. :laugh:

    I love this. I weigh every day and I weigh most of my food (unless it's pre-packaged) and my boyfriend has started to tell me the grams of frozen strawberries he's putting in the smoothies, even though he's not counting calories. Ha! I've converted him! :) But I think as long as a person is not pathological about it (as in, if the scale goes up or they go over by 100 calories, their self-hate switch turns on), more data is always better.

    Your boyfriend sounds adorable :smile:

    I totally agree when it comes to true obsessive weighing, and that's definitely not the case with me. I just have a type A personality, anal if you will. I like to know that my log is as close to reality as possible.

    I feel like I am learning for the first time what a normal portion is. Sometimes I'm over and sometimes I'm under. After a while I hope it becomes second nature -- at least by the time I'm in maintenance.

    Sorry OP, didn't mean to digress. I agree with WalkingAlong, just because you lose it slower this time doesn't mean you won't gain it back. I would really focus on a lifestyle change... which sounds like what you're doing.
  • bflytilidy
    bflytilidy Posts: 27
    @smc864 I know what you mean about learning what a normal portion is!! It's so important not just for weigh loss but to make a lifestyle change permanent. Oh and I totally agree, I'd like a boyfriend who will count the weight of strawberries for me, cute!
  • samrockrocks
    samrockrocks Posts: 251 Member
    If you are doing the TDEE - 20% method you do NOT eat back your exercise calories. Your exercise is already accounted for in that number.

    If it were me I would go for 1500 calories and then eat back half of my exercise calories if I felt hungry that day. If you do go for 1800 make sure that you are diligent in your logging because you have a smaller margin of error. I like to set my calories a bit low just in case I underestimate my calories accidentally.

    Best of luck!

    ETA: I would DEFINITELY incorporate some form of strength training 2-3 times/week.

    That is what I do.... I am very anal with my weighing to make sure I am as accurate as possible allowing me some leeway for error :) My scale measures even fluid ounces so when I pour my milk (like today) I make sure it is exactly 8 fl oz... yeah I know - don't judge me :laugh:

    So on the days you work out, you eat less? That sucks!
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    Female, 5'8", 34, have ranged in weight from 118 (18) to 218 (34)

    iifym using Katch-McCardle (37% body fat) calculator:
    BRM: 1669
    TDEE: 2295
    TDEE-20%: 1836

    At 210, you are likely considerably more than 37% body fat. If you were that low of a percentage, you'd be at a "beach body" %age at 170-175 pounds, which is pretty unlikely.

    K-D @ 50% gives BMR of 1400ish and non-exercise TDEE of 1700ish.
  • QuietBloom
    QuietBloom Posts: 5,413 Member
    I do the Special Snowflake edition. :bigsmile: I'm wildly inconsistent with my workouts. Some days I'll jog 8 miles and some days I only feel like going 3. So for me, I like to be able to adjust my calorie intake on a daily basis.

    Good luck!
  • smc864
    smc864 Posts: 570 Member
    If you are doing the TDEE - 20% method you do NOT eat back your exercise calories. Your exercise is already accounted for in that number.

    If it were me I would go for 1500 calories and then eat back half of my exercise calories if I felt hungry that day. If you do go for 1800 make sure that you are diligent in your logging because you have a smaller margin of error. I like to set my calories a bit low just in case I underestimate my calories accidentally.

    Best of luck!

    ETA: I would DEFINITELY incorporate some form of strength training 2-3 times/week.

    That is what I do.... I am very anal with my weighing to make sure I am as accurate as possible allowing me some leeway for error :) My scale measures even fluid ounces so when I pour my milk (like today) I make sure it is exactly 8 fl oz... yeah I know - don't judge me :laugh:

    So on the days you work out, you eat less? That sucks!

    Ummmmm no.

    I was suggesting two different scenarios:

    1. Eat 1500 calories/day
    2. Eat 1800 calories/day

    No matter if she decided on 1500 or 1800 I would suggest eating only some of your exercise calories back, if any.
  • Docpremie
    Docpremie Posts: 228 Member
    I've been using Haybales' spreadsheet to calculate my TDEE, % BF, daily calories & macros for >8 months. The spreadsheet works like a dream! My starting stats were very similar to yours (5-8, 217 pounds & 46% BF). I love the TDEE-deficit method, because my calorie goal stays constant, thus making it easy to plan out my day. It also extremely important to met your macro requirements: 1 gm/pound LBM of protein, 0.4 gm/LBM of fat and carbs are what is left over. The protein goal is essential to limiting lean body mass (i.e. muscle) loss. The problem with fast/quick weight loss is the loss of LBM. As you lose muscle, your BMR slowly down. You want to maximize your LBM to keep your calorie burn high & achieve the final body aesthetic desired. It's not difficult to eat the required calories, especially if you're hitting your protein & fat goals! You don't need to eat "diet food" (i.e. rabbit food), in fact, you shouldn't restrict your diet to rabbit food just to fill-up, because you'll never hit your protein goal.

    Beside the above, you also need to add in resistance training/heavy lifting to preserve muscle mass.

    The TDEE method really does work!!! I'm now down to 157 pound & 32% BF. I've only lost about 2 pounds of LBM!
  • bflytilidy
    bflytilidy Posts: 27
    @Mr_Knight - yeah it seems a bit low to me too, although I do often get the reaction that people don't think I weigh as much as I do. There's a woman I work with, same age and height and body type and she weighs 185. I actually think I look like I weigh less. Wow I really do think I'm a special snowflake, haha. I did have my body fat measured a few years ago by a nurse when I was 202 and it was 42%, but since then I have worked out quite a bit even though I've gained weight, so maybe it's possible? But I think it's more likely I'm around 45-50 like you say. I need to check out heybales spreadsheet.

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