Losing Muscle?

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AlyssasDiet
AlyssasDiet Posts: 120
in Health and Weight Loss
Can someone please explain to me the science behind "If you eat too few calories, you will lose muscle (instead of fat)"? I'm having trouble finding the logic behind this. The soul purpose of fat is to be energy storage, so why would your body ever go to your muscle for energy, before going to it's designated energy stores(the fat)? I'm not looking for "because it's true!" answer, I would prefer links to actual peer reviewed studies done. :huh:
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  • beachlover317
    beachlover317 Posts: 2,848 Member
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    *Sorry was going to answer, but I don't have studies to quote to you.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,397 MFP Moderator
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    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=127236133

    Here is a good discussion on bb.com about it. This might help. I will see if I can't find more science.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,968 Member
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    It has to do with body fat.......lots of it, your probably not going to lose much if any muscle with adequate protein and weight resistance.........low body fat and a big deficit, then the body is going to get that deficit energy from somewhere and that's muscle.

    Basically the body can liberate about 32 calories per lb of body fat, so it depends on how deep the deficit is and how much fat a person has......if someone is obese and trying to lose weight eating in a fairly big deficit with adequate protein intake, they're probably good to go. Sorry this comes up a lot and didn't feel like researching it, take it or leave my response, doesn't matter to me, said in a nice way. :smile:
  • Derf_Smeggle
    Derf_Smeggle Posts: 611 Member
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    /Edit/ It is an incorrect statement people make when they say we lose muscle *instead* of fat. Rather we can lose muscle along with fat loss. /End Edit/

    This generally relates to the over all umbrella of Catabolism. Catabolism, in simple terms that I understand, is the metabolic process of breaking down of complex molecules into simpler molecules to release energy. Catabolism covers the breakdown of carbohydrates, fat, and protein that we consume. It also includes the breakdown of stored energy in the body, such as, glycogen that is stored in the liver, stored fat, and protein stored in the muscle tissue.

    Our bodies really strive to maintain homeostasis. One part of this homeostasis is blood sugar, or blood glucose levels. Blood glucose levels have to be maintained so that cells can be provided with the material needed to produce ATP. Now here is the thing. The body does not actively care where it gets the glucose from. It will take from the most readily available source.

    I will say this is what I understand of the following process. I stand ready to be corrected. In cases where readily available glucose from dietary calories become less available and when glycogen stores are low in the liver our bodies will activate, or perhaps it is better to say, increase the level of a process called gluconeogensis. Gluconeogensis is the breakdown of non-carbohydrate substrates to produce glucose. If your body cannot find dietary sources of fat and protein to breakdown, it starts looking at stored fat and muscle protein to breakdown.

    At this point I'll repeat the body does not care where the glucose comes from, so long as it can get that blood glucose level raised.

    The general consensus in my reading about the topic on catabolism of lean muscle is that a small amount will occur during dieting and calorie restriction. The method of limiting the lean muscle loss seems to revolve around eating sufficient amounts of protein in a well balanced diet, by eating small amounts of food in greater frequency, and doing some muscle building exercise.

    In layman's terms that I understand it seems this works for the following reasons. By eating the right amount of protein in a balanced diet you are insuring there is a quicker, easier source of protein to go to for the catabolic processes. By eating frequently in small amounts you are insuring there is always a little something to "burn" before going to look for it in the muscle. By doing some muscle building exercise you are signaling the body that the protein bound up in the muscles is needed where it is at.
  • Derf_Smeggle
    Derf_Smeggle Posts: 611 Member
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    Basically the body can liberate about 32 calories per lb of body fat, so it depends on how deep the deficit is and how much fat a person has....
    I question this number. 1 gram of fat contains an average of 9 calories (kCal if we're being really precise). 1 pound is 454 grams, decimals aside. 1 pound (454 grams) of body fat is on average 87% lipid. 454g * 87% * 9 = 3555 calories.
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
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    Are you implying the body only runs on fat as its fuel source? You'll always lose some muscle in calorie restriction. Research pubmed, be warned this area is very broad

    Here are some
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16526835
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23446962
  • happystars82
    happystars82 Posts: 225 Member
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    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
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    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...
    Not sure if this applies to you but:
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html
  • AlyssasDiet
    AlyssasDiet Posts: 120
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    /Edit/ It is an incorrect statement people make when they say we lose muscle *instead* of fat. Rather we can lose muscle along with fat loss. /End Edit/

    This generally relates to the over all umbrella of Catabolism. Catabolism, in simple terms that I understand, is the metabolic process of breaking down of complex molecules into simpler molecules to release energy. Catabolism covers the breakdown of carbohydrates, fat, and protein that we consume. It also includes the breakdown of stored energy in the body, such as, glycogen that is stored in the liver, stored fat, and protein stored in the muscle tissue.

    Our bodies really strive to maintain homeostasis. One part of this homeostasis is blood sugar, or blood glucose levels. Blood glucose levels have to be maintained so that cells can be provided with the material needed to produce ATP. Now here is the thing. The body does not actively care where it gets the glucose from. It will take from the most readily available source.

    I will say this is what I understand of the following process. I stand ready to be corrected. In cases where readily available glucose from dietary calories become less available and when glycogen stores are low in the liver our bodies will activate, or perhaps it is better to say, increase the level of a process called gluconeogensis. Gluconeogensis is the breakdown of non-carbohydrate substrates to produce glucose. If your body cannot find dietary sources of fat and protein to breakdown, it starts looking at stored fat and muscle protein to breakdown.

    At this point I'll repeat the body does not care where the glucose comes from, so long as it can get that blood glucose level raised.

    The general consensus in my reading about the topic on catabolism of lean muscle is that a small amount will occur during dieting and calorie restriction. The method of limiting the lean muscle loss seems to revolve around eating sufficient amounts of protein in a well balanced diet, by eating small amounts of food in greater frequency, and doing some muscle building exercise.

    In layman's terms that I understand it seems this works for the following reasons. By eating the right amount of protein in a balanced diet you are insuring there is a quicker, easier source of protein to go to for the catabolic processes. By eating frequently in small amounts you are insuring there is always a little something to "burn" before going to look for it in the muscle. By doing some muscle building exercise you are signaling the body that the protein bound up in the muscles is needed where it is at.

    Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out! I'm starting to get t now. So it's more of a nutrients thing than a calorie thing. Which means I who eat (to be honest) way too much protein and exercise alongside my diet, shouldn't have to worry about losing any muscle?
  • AlyssasDiet
    AlyssasDiet Posts: 120
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    Are you implying the body only runs on fat as its fuel source? You'll always lose some muscle in calorie restriction. Research pubmed, be warned this area is very broad

    Here are some
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16526835
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23446962

    Thank you for these studies! They were very interesting and exactly what I was looking for!
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,397 MFP Moderator
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    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...

    your weight gain is most likely due to water retention.
  • happystars82
    happystars82 Posts: 225 Member
    Options
    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...
    Not sure if this applies to you but:
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html

    it says the link has expired?
  • happystars82
    happystars82 Posts: 225 Member
    Options
    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...

    your weight gain is most likely due to water retention.


    after a month?
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,397 MFP Moderator
    Options
    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...

    your weight gain is most likely due to water retention.


    after a month?

    I just looked at your diary. I bet you are eating a lot more calories than you think you are. You are not consistent with your logging. Also, if you aren't using a food scale, it's another way it could be off. If you want to discuss further, PM me.


    OP, sorry about the small hijack.
  • Bejede
    Bejede Posts: 191 Member
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    Bump
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
    Options
    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...
    Not sure if this applies to you but:
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html

    it says the link has expired?
    Works fine on my end. Make sure you entered it right.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,397 MFP Moderator
    Options
    /Edit/ It is an incorrect statement people make when they say we lose muscle *instead* of fat. Rather we can lose muscle along with fat loss. /End Edit/

    This generally relates to the over all umbrella of Catabolism. Catabolism, in simple terms that I understand, is the metabolic process of breaking down of complex molecules into simpler molecules to release energy. Catabolism covers the breakdown of carbohydrates, fat, and protein that we consume. It also includes the breakdown of stored energy in the body, such as, glycogen that is stored in the liver, stored fat, and protein stored in the muscle tissue.

    Our bodies really strive to maintain homeostasis. One part of this homeostasis is blood sugar, or blood glucose levels. Blood glucose levels have to be maintained so that cells can be provided with the material needed to produce ATP. Now here is the thing. The body does not actively care where it gets the glucose from. It will take from the most readily available source.

    I will say this is what I understand of the following process. I stand ready to be corrected. In cases where readily available glucose from dietary calories become less available and when glycogen stores are low in the liver our bodies will activate, or perhaps it is better to say, increase the level of a process called gluconeogensis. Gluconeogensis is the breakdown of non-carbohydrate substrates to produce glucose. If your body cannot find dietary sources of fat and protein to breakdown, it starts looking at stored fat and muscle protein to breakdown.

    At this point I'll repeat the body does not care where the glucose comes from, so long as it can get that blood glucose level raised.

    The general consensus in my reading about the topic on catabolism of lean muscle is that a small amount will occur during dieting and calorie restriction. The method of limiting the lean muscle loss seems to revolve around eating sufficient amounts of protein in a well balanced diet, by eating small amounts of food in greater frequency, and doing some muscle building exercise.

    In layman's terms that I understand it seems this works for the following reasons. By eating the right amount of protein in a balanced diet you are insuring there is a quicker, easier source of protein to go to for the catabolic processes. By eating frequently in small amounts you are insuring there is always a little something to "burn" before going to look for it in the muscle. By doing some muscle building exercise you are signaling the body that the protein bound up in the muscles is needed where it is at.

    Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out! I'm starting to get t now. So it's more of a nutrients thing than a calorie thing. Which means I who eat (to be honest) way too much protein and exercise alongside my diet, shouldn't have to worry about losing any muscle?

    How much weight/resistance training do you do? Regardless of how keen you are with nutrition and exercise, you will lose some amount of lean body mass. A small deficit and adequate protein will decrease the amount of muscle loss, but a threshold of 10-20% isn't uncommon.

    I will note, I have seen up to 50% loss in cases of LCD (person lost 40% but then again she was eating like 800 calories a day)
  • danimalkeys
    danimalkeys Posts: 982 Member
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    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...

    your weight gain is most likely due to water retention.


    after a month?

    Yes, even after a month- you retain water when you work out so your body can repair the muscles. It's much more likely that you've gained water weight than gained 1lb of muscle in a month while eating at a deficit. Building muscle needs a surplus of calories and a lot of hard work in the gym, and even then the gains are not 1lb a month, at least, in women who have a harder time putting muscle mass on.
  • Derf_Smeggle
    Derf_Smeggle Posts: 611 Member
    Options
    Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out! I'm starting to get t now. So it's more of a nutrients thing than a calorie thing. Which means I who eat (to be honest) way too much protein and exercise alongside my diet, shouldn't have to worry about losing any muscle?
    Not exactly. Some lean body mass loss is going to occur, but by eating the proper amounts of protein and by doing muscle building/weight training exercises you will reduce the amount of lean mass loss. You will also build overall muscle mass by causing the muscle cells to become hypertrophic.

    Basically, don't drive yourself nuts about the minor lean body mass loss. Eat properly. Workout. Enjoy your success!
  • Derf_Smeggle
    Derf_Smeggle Posts: 611 Member
    Options
    ok just when i think i understand something i then get confused again..

    i'm 242lb i have a 1000 cals a day deficit i burn on adverage 800 cals 4 times a week and i have gained a 1lb!
    i was told this is because of muscle built from gym.... my body must of been burning fat as i have lost inches.. so is it right if you have a deficit and are using muscle then your engery source will be body fat especially someone of my size? would that also explain how i have put on weight....?

    one confused little lady from the UK
    p.s feel free to add and inbox to explain this more if you like...
    Re-examine your calorie logging and re-examine your calculation for the calorie burn. I ran into the very same problem a couple years ago, during an earlier attempt to adjust my BMI. I broke out my food scale and my pocket notepad to check my consistency.

    Realized I was significantly underestimating my calorie intake.

    It is so ridiculously easy for me to underestimate, or to forget to log something.

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