Time to bulk?

I've been on a cut since the end of September. I first weighted myself on October 12th. I was 12st 3lbs. I'm now 11st 3lbs and although I've lost lost of weight and body fat, I'm now starting to feel a bit ill coming in at under 1700 cals a day - usually coming in under 1500 net in order to speed up the weight loss. My food diary is public, so feel free to pull it to pieces if it helps me to get on the right path!

My current pics are contained in this thread:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1142045-work-in-progress-may-2010-to-nov-2013

Looking at those pics, would you say that I should carry on cutting? Would you say that by looking, my body fat% is still too high before I think about bulking?

I feel really, really tired now. I've posted this as I want to get some advice before deciding whether or not I should ignore/listen to what my body is telling me!

Replies

abadvat

1500 to 1700 calories a day?? Seems way too low for the pics i see.
What's your height / age and fitness levels?

not bulking but maybe a good session of reverse dieting will be good!

Chances are you are way too low on your cals and your body is storing more fat than the due.
Ramping up your cals. and twicking your macros will eventually make you loose more fat than you supposedly are now.

inbox if you want to further discuss.

good luck!

moya_rargh

1500 to 1700 calories a day?? Seems way too low for the pics i see.
What's your height / age and fitness levels?

not bulking but maybe a good session of reverse dieting will be good!

Chances are you are way too low on your cals and your body is storing more fat than the due.
Ramping up your cals. and twicking your macros will eventually make you loose more fat than you supposedly are now.

inbox if you want to further discuss.

good luck!

Height: 5ft 8ins

Age: 39

I train 60mins weights 4x a week - Upper A, Lower A, Upper B, Lower B

I run 10km 2x a week - takes me approx. 55-60mins to complete 10km.

colortheworld

Just reading how much you work out makes me think you need to eat more. I'm a 5'5" female who does a mixture of strength and cardio, about 20 minutes a day 7 days a week (doing Jillian Michael's 30 Day Shred) and eat almost as much as you do.

renewondergem

I'm thinking you should not bulk, but just eat more. Your body will put the food to use for muscle mass. Just eat high in protein and fiber!

With your training, you could easily eat 2000 kcal and still lose weight

moya_rargh

I'm thinking you should not bulk, but just eat more. Your body will put the food to use for muscle mass. Just eat high in protein and fiber!

With your training, you could easily eat 2000 kcal and still lose weight

I'm currently eating around 2000 a day and then burning around roughly 500-600 off with exercise.

I'm about to change my goals to gain 0.5lbs a week once I've got this week's (much increased) shopping list sorted.

EDIT. Just changed my goals:

New goal weight 13st, gaining at 0.5lbs a week.

MFP has just worked out the following based on the above:

2250 cals a day for maintenance - add 200 or 500 cals a day for bulking?

Carbs: 309g
Fat: 75g
Protein: 84g. I currently weigh 157lbs so shouldn't I be getting nearer to 180-200g a day of protein?

AverageUkDude

I'm thinking you should not bulk, but just eat more. Your body will put the food to use for muscle mass. Just eat high in protein and fiber!

With your training, you could easily eat 2000 kcal and still lose weight

I'm currently eating around 2000 a day and then burning around roughly 500-600 off with exercise.

I'm about to change my goals to gain 0.5lbs a week once I've got this week's (much increased) shopping list sorted.

EDIT. Just changed my goals:

New goal weight 13st, gaining at 0.5lbs a week.

MFP has just worked out the following based on the above:

2250 cals a day for maintenance - add 200 or 500 cals a day for bulking?

Carbs: 309g
Fat: 75g
Protein: 84g. I currently weigh 157lbs so shouldn't I be getting nearer to 180-200g a day of protein?

Your maintenance based on your stats are closer to 2800 calories a day.

http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/

chrisdavey

maintenance calcs are not going to be accurate for someone with metabolic adaptation.

I would personally diet break for 2 weeks and then start to decrease the cals again. I don't think at your current BF% that the partitioning between fat/muscle gain would be that good.

moya_rargh

maintenance calcs are not going to be accurate for someone with metabolic adaptation.

I would personally diet break for 2 weeks and then start to decrease the cals again. I don't think at your current BF% that the partitioning between fat/muscle gain would be that good.

How do I do that in noob terms? Sorry!

AverageUkDude

maintenance calcs are not going to be accurate for someone with metabolic adaptation.

There's still a ton of arguments on if metabolic adaptation even exists, I know there are currently a few studies happening that will prove interesting on this subject.

At Op you will find lots of reading around nutrition etc here:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/show/3834-eat-more-to-weigh-less

HeidiMightyRawr

So you've lost another stone from the after pictures in that link (from october)?

If that's the case, I wouldn't focus anymore on cutting, and switch to maintenance for a while, or bulk up if you want.

If you do decide to cut more, I wouldn't say that itself is the issue with how you're feeling, it's probably more to do with the calorie intake. 1700 is quite low for a man anyway, especially if you're active. I'm assuming you're active if you're cutting and bulking, otherwise the bulk would be just fat gain. The fact that you've lost 14lbs in 6 weeks roughly, also indicates your deficit is quite big.

If you do cut more, I'd up the calories at least by another 500 a day. You'll lose at a slower rate which is good as you're very close to goal, and you'll probably feel a ton better than you do now! You don't need to be losing that quickly unless you have a lot to lose.

SideSteel

maintenance calcs are not going to be accurate for someone with metabolic adaptation.

There's still a ton of arguments on if metabolic adaptation even exists, I know there are currently a few studies happening that will prove interesting on this subject.

At Op you will find lots of reading around nutrition etc here:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/show/3834-eat-more-to-weigh-less

Are you confusing metabolic adaptations with metabolic damage? The former has evidence to support it through research.

SideSteel

I have some questions.

You state in the OP that you have been cutting since September but your attached post indicates you've been losing weight for a long period of time. Did you take a break at maintenance prior to September? I'd like to know how long you've been dieting and what you were doing before that.

Do you have records of your weekly weigh-ins between Oct 12th and current?

Alternatively can you tell me what rate you've been losing weight at between November 5th and current?

I'm asking because your intake ramps up significantly starting around November 5th.

Regardless, I wouldn't bulk. Your best bet right now is to either take a diet break for a couple of weeks to give you a mental break, or, depending on the above answers, you may be able to increase calories a bit and continue cutting. I'd base this on how mentally fried you are. The diet break could be what you need to just de-stress and allow yourself to return to dieting.

Regarding metabolic adaptations, debating aside as to whether or not it even exists, I don't think it's a big concern for you despite your weight loss. You're losing weight just fine. In fact dropping 14lbs over 6 weeks is quite rapid. This is also why I'd like to see what that rate of loss has done in weekly increments because you have a significant increase in intake towards 11/5 and onward.

moya_rargh

I have some questions.

You state in the OP that you have been cutting since September but your attached post indicates you've been losing weight for a long period of time. Did you take a break at maintenance prior to September? I'd like to know how long you've been dieting and what you were doing before that.

Do you have records of your weekly weigh-ins between Oct 12th and current?

Alternatively can you tell me what rate you've been losing weight at between November 5th and current?

I'm asking because your intake ramps up significantly starting around November 5th.

Regardless, I wouldn't bulk. Your best bet right now is to either take a diet break for a couple of weeks to give you a mental break, or, depending on the above answers, you may be able to increase calories a bit and continue cutting. I'd base this on how mentally fried you are. The diet break could be what you need to just de-stress and allow yourself to return to dieting.

Regarding metabolic adaptations, debating aside as to whether or not it even exists, I don't think it's a big concern for you despite your weight loss. You're losing weight just fine. In fact dropping 14lbs over 6 weeks is quite rapid. This is also why I'd like to see what that rate of loss has done in weekly increments because you have a significant increase in intake towards 11/5 and onward.

Been following the 'gradually eating less crap diet' since 2010. Didn't start measuring properly until October 12th this year.

Are my weigh-ins not public on my profile? Al I know is 12st 3 on Oct 12th and gradual decrease to 11st 3 on Nov 21st.
My weight 'steadied out' from the start of November as I started feeling really tired after diving in head-first in October, so listened to my body and started giving it more fuel.

SideSteel

Do you recall how much you've lost in the past two weeks?

moya_rargh

Do you recall how much you've lost in the past two weeks?

I've lost 3lbs in the past fortnight.

JoRocka

Take a break- at least 3-4 weeks. Eat at maintenance.

It doesn't have to be CUT or BULK- it's not one or the other- there is a middle ground where you are just sustaining- hold there- stabilize and then make the decision.

SideSteel

In my opinion that rate of loss is just about ideal.

That being said, if you're mentally or physically exhausted from dieting, it still wouldn't be a bad idea to take a break at maintenance intake for a couple of weeks and then go back to your deficit.

Your caloric average over the past two weeks is as follows:

2195
175 c
51 f
138 p

The fact that you can drop about 1% bodyweight per week on that intake is great, in my opinion.

mrdexter1

Everyones so nice !

But it boils down to if you re hapy with that look - maintain.

( there is plenty of scope to lift more of the fat off and for that you need to cut ! )

Only bulk if you can live with the extra fat you ll put on !

whiteheaddg

I don't post much anymore, but I read your two threads and wanted to offer an endorsement on two of the posters. SideSteel and Sara will steer you straight and, if you are not already, you should check out their group (believe it is "eat, train, progress.")

I believe I was in the same boat you are about three years ago. I'm 42, 5'10", and was ~195 lbs three years ago. Managed to get down to about 175 before joining MFP which helped me hit 155. My first bulk attempt went poorly as I tended to get nervous every time I put on weight (even though I realized that was the goal) - that got me into a yo-yo of adding/cutting calories. The end result is that I gained about 11 lbs, but I'd wager only about 3lbs of that was LBM.

So I read a LOT of info on these forums (most posted by SideSteel and Sara) and came up with a more structured gameplan over the past year. Cut back down to 155 - a better looking 155 than before - and I'm now on my 2nd bulk cycle. Pushing hard on the weight gain and heavy lifting. I'm nearing 165 and, while putting on some fat, I've clearly gained much more LBM and can't wait for the spring cut to see what I will have gained.

TL;DR: Read a lot. Make a game plan. STICK TO IT.

Good luck.

moya_rargh

I don't post much anymore, but I read your two threads and wanted to offer an endorsement on two of the posters. SideSteel and Sara will steer you straight and, if you are not already, you should check out their group (believe it is "eat, train, progress.")

I believe I was in the same boat you are about three years ago. I'm 42, 5'10", and was ~195 lbs three years ago. Managed to get down to about 175 before joining MFP which helped me hit 155. My first bulk attempt went poorly as I tended to get nervous every time I put on weight (even though I realized that was the goal) - that got me into a yo-yo of adding/cutting calories. The end result is that I gained about 11 lbs, but I'd wager only about 3lbs of that was LBM.

So I read a LOT of info on these forums (most posted by SideSteel and Sara) and came up with a more structured gameplan over the past year. Cut back down to 155 - a better looking 155 than before - and I'm now on my 2nd bulk cycle. Pushing hard on the weight gain and heavy lifting. I'm nearing 165 and, while putting on some fat, I've clearly gained much more LBM and can't wait for the spring cut to see what I will have gained.

TL;DR: Read a lot. Make a game plan. STICK TO IT.

Good luck.

Thanks, mate. Your post struck a chord! My plan is to bulk through the winter and start cutting in early March for the summer.

jblackjr

First off your starving yourself, so stop doing that! I went down that road to and felt like complete *kitten* on a daily basis. I'm 6'4" 210lbs and was trying to maintain 1500 cals a day. It was hell.

If you want to increase your size I say go for a bulk, but do it slow and do it smart. Find your maintenance and eat about 250 more calories for the first couple of weeks and see how your body handles that. If that goes well increase to 500 extra a day and eat as clean as possible.

SideSteel

First off your starving yourself, so stop doing that! I went down that road to and felt like complete *kitten* on a daily basis. I'm 6'4" 210lbs and was trying to maintain 1500 cals a day. It was hell.

If you want to increase your size I say go for a bulk, but do it slow and do it smart. Find your maintenance and eat about 250 more calories for the first couple of weeks and see how your body handles that. If that goes well increase to 500 extra a day and eat as clean as possible.

OP is averaging 2190 calories per day for the past two weeks at 157 lbs. Just clarifying this as this intake is far from starving. It's actually quite good that OP can lose around 1% BW/week at this intake.

TonyStark30

I don't post much anymore, but I read your two threads and wanted to offer an endorsement on two of the posters. SideSteel and Sara will steer you straight and, if you are not already, you should check out their group (believe it is "eat, train, progress.")

I believe I was in the same boat you are about three years ago. I'm 42, 5'10", and was ~195 lbs three years ago. Managed to get down to about 175 before joining MFP which helped me hit 155. My first bulk attempt went poorly as I tended to get nervous every time I put on weight (even though I realized that was the goal) - that got me into a yo-yo of adding/cutting calories. The end result is that I gained about 11 lbs, but I'd wager only about 3lbs of that was LBM.

So I read a LOT of info on these forums (most posted by SideSteel and Sara) and came up with a more structured gameplan over the past year. Cut back down to 155 - a better looking 155 than before - and I'm now on my 2nd bulk cycle. Pushing hard on the weight gain and heavy lifting. I'm nearing 165 and, while putting on some fat, I've clearly gained much more LBM and can't wait for the spring cut to see what I will have gained.

TL;DR: Read a lot. Make a game plan. STICK TO IT.

Good luck.

Thanks, mate. Your post struck a chord! My plan is to bulk through the winter and start cutting in early March for the summer.

I would cut a bit more then do the winter bulk, main reason being from March to Summer you will not get where you want to be in time (Purely by simple maths) So I would cut until I felt underweight, then bulk.

I'm 5'9 and went from over 14 stone and didn't start my bulk until just over 10 Stone, Bulked until March to over 12 and a half, and I'm still cutting lol but I was never going to make Summer even if I was strict. I was 11 Yesterday going to stop at 10 and a half stone and then just fill out at mainenance.

Everything about bulking was good, and my body does look and feel better for it but if I would've bulked earlier I would still have that fat to lose, doesn't matter what your plan is you are still going to be eating at a deficit for the time it takes to lose that fat. Just easier to get lean, see the fat go on as you bulk, then get lean again.

moya_rargh

My tipping point came last week. It wasn't the feeling tired and hungry all the time, nor was it the regular waking in the small hours with my stomach rumbling...it was the fact that I was starting to get weaker in the gym. It's horrible feeling so tired, weak and hungry all the time.

mustgetmuscles1

Just take a break if you still have some body fat to lose.

I dieted for a almost a year and became very fatigued and weak around 8 months. Took about a month at maintenance and then resumed weight loss. Felt much better and weight losses started being consistent again.

MrGonzo05

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1142045-work-in-progress-may-2010-to-nov-2013

Looking at those pics, would you say that I should carry on cutting? Would you say that by looking, my body fat% is still too high before I think about bulking?

Yes, continue cutting. Your are not yet lean enough to consider a bulk. Nothing wrong with a break, but don't bulk.

My tipping point came last week. It wasn't the feeling tired and hungry all the time, nor was it the regular waking in the small hours with my stomach rumbling...it was the fact that I was starting to get weaker in the gym. It's horrible feeling so tired, weak and hungry all the time.

It's normal to feel weaker, and actually be weaker, during a cut. There are things you can do that will help. Make sure your deficit is not excessively large, and that you consistently hit your macros. Avoid excessive exercise. Also, you may need to cut your training volume (not frequency). Though in the end, nothing will replace missing calories.

moya_rargh

Thanks guys. I'll try and come in as close to maintenance but 100-200 under at the most for the next few weeks and see how I feel.

chrisdavey

First off your starving yourself, so stop doing that! I went down that road to and felt like complete *kitten* on a daily basis. I'm 6'4" 210lbs and was trying to maintain 1500 cals a day. It was hell.

If you want to increase your size I say go for a bulk, but do it slow and do it smart. Find your maintenance and eat about 250 more calories for the first couple of weeks and see how your body handles that. If that goes well increase to 500 extra a day and eat as clean as possible.

OP is averaging 2190 calories per day for the past two weeks at 157 lbs. Just clarifying this as this intake is far from starving. It's actually quite good that OP can lose around 1% BW/week at this intake.

This is the biggest issue with MFP gross and net cals. I always think in gross cals yet many here post there net which can be a MASSIVE difference.

I agree with your recommendations FWIW

TonyStark30

My tipping point came last week. It wasn't the feeling tired and hungry all the time, nor was it the regular waking in the small hours with my stomach rumbling...it was the fact that I was starting to get weaker in the gym. It's horrible feeling so tired, weak and hungry all the time.

Even if you had a cheat day now and again it could help, as if you go gym the next day you'll feel stronger, compared to all the training you do depleted. I eat up to Maintenance with carbs on a Sunday, train like a beast Monday and act like I'm still a beast the rest of the week until I'm tired lol

moya_rargh

My tipping point came last week. It wasn't the feeling tired and hungry all the time, nor was it the regular waking in the small hours with my stomach rumbling...it was the fact that I was starting to get weaker in the gym. It's horrible feeling so tired, weak and hungry all the time.

Even if you had a cheat day now and again it could help, as if you go gym the next day you'll feel stronger, compared to all the training you do depleted. I eat up to Maintenance with carbs on a Sunday, train like a beast Monday and act like I'm still a beast the rest of the week until I'm tired lol

That's what I've decided to do, try come in as close to maintenance as possible on training days by adding some carbs before workouts so that I'm not training myself to death on empty!