How much protein is too much?

terizius
terizius Posts: 425 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
I'm currently making my 2nd attempt at bulking up, following the Shortcut to Size program by Jim Stoppani, Phd. The program recommends a macronutrient ratio of 40/40/20 (Protein/Carb/Fat). With my caloric goal of 3500 calories a day, that equals about 330 grams of protein. Besides being difficult to actually get that much protein, it seems like a crazy amount of protein to be consuming each day. I've done some research but haven't found any hard and fast numbers as to what equals too much. What are your ideas? (BTW, I'm a 31 year old male, 5'9", 142 lbs)
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Replies

  • cmeiron
    cmeiron Posts: 1,599 Member
    The numbers I usually see recommended (and those that I use for myself) are based on body weight, not a percentage of intake - doing the latter isn't so bad on a cut but on a bulk it's ridiculous. Try 1-1.2g protein/lb bw and a minimum of .35g fat / lb bw. Fill the rest with carbs, or more protein/fat, depending on your satiety and gym performance.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    This is why ratio based macros are insane. You don't need 40% more protein on a day you do a lot of exercise. 330 g is crazy even for a huge bodybuilder. For a 142 lb guy it's completely absurd.

    Shoot for 1.1 - 1.4 g/lb lean mass. That'll probably be around 150-160 for you.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    Read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24092765
  • Cre8veLifeR
    Cre8veLifeR Posts: 1,062 Member
    @cmeirun is right - too much protein is like too much of anything else - it converts to fat if the body can't use it.
  • cmeiron
    cmeiron Posts: 1,599 Member
    @cmeirun is right - too much protein is like too much of anything else - it converts to fat if the body can't use it.

    Actually, that's not what I said at all...I don't agree with this statement. Too much of CALORIES will convert to fat. He could eat the 330g of protein a day if he wanted to, but a) it's hard to do and b) he probably doesn't need to in order to build muscle. But he could, and it wouldn't put fat on unless he was eating over his maintenance intake.
  • cmeiron
    cmeiron Posts: 1,599 Member
    Read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24092765

    Ooooh, right, forgot about that paper and the higher range recommendation. Well, I was close :tongue: I'm getting about 1.15g/lb so not too far off from ideal.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    Well the paper is really about people in a calorie deficit. I'm totally comfortable recommending less for people maintaining or bulking. 1 g/lb lbm is as low ad I would go though.
  • alpacino9
    alpacino9 Posts: 25
    My best success bulking has been...

    Protein: 1 to 1.5x bodyweight
    Complex Carbs: 2x bodyweight

    I follow muscleforlife.com, works great.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    My best success bulking has been...

    Protein: 1 to 1.5x bodyweight
    Complex Carbs: 2x bodyweight

    I follow muscleforlife.com, works great.

    I follow science. Works great too and I don't need to waste money on stuff like raspberry ketones and testosterone boosters.
  • GradatimFerociter
    GradatimFerociter Posts: 296 Member
    Too little is much more relevant than too much. As long as you are getting enough protein and fats then the rest can be whatever you like really.
  • terizius
    terizius Posts: 425 Member
    I just read a very interesting article on what happens to the macronutrients that are consumed. Regarding proteins, essentially, anything extra that is taken in is used for energy. Here's an excerpt:

    about half of all ingested dietary protein is metabolized in the liver (details on this can be found in The Protein Book). Some of it is oxidized for energy while others are converted into other things (including glucose and ketones) for use elsewhere. But, protein oxidation rates do change in response to intake. So, when protein intake goes up, oxidation will increase; when protein intake goes down, oxidation rates decrease. This change isn’t immediate (as it more or less is for carbohydrates) and takes 3-9 days to occur but mis-understanding of this process has led to some goofy ideas such as protein cycling.

    The entire article can be read at: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/nutrient-intake-nutrient-storage-and-nutrient-oxidation.html
  • takumaku
    takumaku Posts: 352 Member
    I usually keep my protein intake about 1.3-1.5 g/lb. You are an individual. Try out different levels and find what works for you.
  • SteveJWatson
    SteveJWatson Posts: 1,225 Member
    From what I have read on here, you cut and bulk on about 1g/lb lean body mass - the increase in cals mostly comes from carbs when you are bulking.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    To answer your specific question: The upper limits of safe protein consumption are not really understood for people with healthy kidney function, but it's difficult (and expensive) to "shoot the moon" on protein.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/protein-requirements-for-strength-and-power-athletes.html

    One of the most sensible articles I've ever read on the subject. Basically, Lyle says 1.5g/lb is a recommendation that errs on the high side without being ridiculous.
  • NewTnme
    NewTnme Posts: 258 Member
    I suggest maybe talking to your doctor too much protein Can be hard on the kidneys.
  • maz2469
    maz2469 Posts: 67 Member
    1g / 1kg in BW of protein for normal people, only a bit more bulking. If you were on a high protein low carb diet, the protein would be used for energy (unless you were over eating, then it would be stored as fat too), but as someone mentioned before, it can lead to kidney problems...
  • ronrstaats
    ronrstaats Posts: 294 Member
    I suggest maybe talking to your doctor too much protein Can be hard on the kidneys.

    Only people with kidney problems will further their problems by ingesting too much protein. If you have healthy kidneys you won't get kidney problems from too much protein.
  • terizius
    terizius Posts: 425 Member
    Huffdogg, thanks for the link. I'm a scientifically minded person and that article sums it up nicely. For those not interested in reading the article.. here's the gist of it. A lot of research as been done, and they still don't have a concensus. But the guy writing this article (Whom I reference in an earlier post) is a science/research nut and goes with the guidelines provided by another study. Heres what that study said:

    ■We don’t know how much protein is required to optimize all of the potential pathways important to athletes.
    ■We know that a protein intake of 1.4 g/lb (3.0 g/kg) isn’t harmful and may have benefits that are too small to be measured in research
    ■As long as eating lots of protein doesn’t keep an athlete from eating too few of the other nutrients (carbs/fats), there’s no reason to not eat a lot. And there may be benefits.

    With that being said.. I've modified my currently daily protien goal to aboug 305 g. In my case, thats about 2g/lb. This is still high, however, my daily caloric intake is rather high as well. In my case, 305g of protien is only 35% of my calories, with 40% dedicated to Carbs and 25% for Fats.
  • NewTnme
    NewTnme Posts: 258 Member
    I suggest maybe talking to your doctor too much protein Can be hard on the kidneys.

    Only people with kidney problems will further their problems by ingesting too much protein. If you have healthy kidneys you won't get kidney problems from too much protein.
    Too much of anything can cause our organs to malfunction. I did not know if this person had any kidney issues so that is why I recommend him to ask his doctor before I suggested any increase in protein.
  • littlekitty3
    littlekitty3 Posts: 265 Member
    There's a lot of broscience on this one, especially sites like bodybuilding.com
    But you really only need .8g:1lb for a bulk.
    It wouldn't make a difference to go the 1g:1lb ratio, so get the extra .2 from good carbs. Don't be afraid of them. There are vegan body builders out there who eat nothing but fruits and veggies.
  • skipotronik
    skipotronik Posts: 9 Member
    i am 185 pounds and almost 6 feet tall, last year i hired a bodybuilding coach to tell me what to eat, at the time i was 166 pounds, he gave me a diet with 400 gr of protein and in about 3 months i was 185. i gained almost 20 pounds of muscle with that diet. now i wanted to bulk again but only with 300g but i get no results. from my point of view its all about the amount of protein you eat from fish,turkey,chicken and horse combined with great amount of green vegetable.

    its a very interesting topic. i know this type of diet cannot be done year around, it s a cycle thing.
  • terizius
    terizius Posts: 425 Member
    Does anyone have any personal, first-hand experience with various levels of protien consumption while bulking? So far, there have a lot of suggestions/recommendations, a few science/research backed responses but little to no first-hand knowledge or experiences being passed along

    Edit - I must have posted this right as Skip posted his above comment. Skip, thanks for sharing your experience.
  • skipotronik
    skipotronik Posts: 9 Member
    i actually put this diet in my diary and it scores 500g of protein...i know it sounds crazy but i was bulking like crazy and gaining strenght in the gym.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    I can tell you that my coach, Greg Nuckols, a world record holder in the squat and 3 lift total, tells me that there is no credible evidence that anything over 1.5g per kg is of any real use. The rest is training. I love science, but results also speak volumes.
  • terizius
    terizius Posts: 425 Member
    Huffdogg, I agree - there is no evidence that I can find supporting anything above 1.5g/lb. However, neither is there any evidence that there is any harm in more (in a normal, healthy, active person), and as the study I referenced previously mentions, a little more is better than a little less. The extra just gets burned as fuel. On the other hand.. protien is a pretty expensive source of fuel compared to carbs and fats..
  • grantdumas7
    grantdumas7 Posts: 802 Member
    Just keep in mind that protein is more thermogenic than carbs or fats, so I would only go about .85 to 1.25 grams of protein per LB. I would increase the carbs.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
    IMO in a caloric SURPLUS you're easily sufficient at 1g/lb BW and that's probably more than enough. Going WAY over that number won't likely cause you any problems but you're basically eating really expensive carbs at that point since you'll be oxidizing a ton of it.
  • GGDaddy
    GGDaddy Posts: 289 Member
    Does anyone have any personal, first-hand experience with various levels of protien consumption while bulking? So far, there have a lot of suggestions/recommendations, a few science/research backed responses but little to no first-hand knowledge or experiences being passed along

    Edit - I must have posted this right as Skip posted his above comment. Skip, thanks for sharing your experience.

    Another data point, take it for what it's worth.

    Back in my 20's, exactly 20 years ago, I bulked with a trainer who was under the impression that more than 15% protein just converts to fat. She had me on a 500 cal surplus at 3200 calories a day, and I logged macros with pen & paper. I stayed under 15% protein, which meant no more than 480 calories, i.e. 120 grams/day (at 190 lbs, roughly 0.63 g/lb) For perspective, I'm 6'4".

    Progress was:
    April 1994--190 lbs
    June 1994--197 lbs
    Nov 1994--213 lbs

    My %BF stayed near 14% throughout, so it was mostly muscle gains. Roughly 20 lbs lean muscle tissue in 7 months on 0.63g/lb protein.

    So it's possible.
  • terizius
    terizius Posts: 425 Member
    GGDaddy, Thanks for the info. That sounds pretty consistent with the lean gains I've read about. Interesting info.
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
    protien is a pretty expensive source of fuel compared to carbs and fats..

    TBH this is the only reason I don't eat a way higher protein macro. I just can't afford it lol.

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