Deadlifts and Overhead press
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I prefer barbell OHP to dumbbells, but I do both. I also have pre-existing limited shoulder mobility, but I seem to do just fine on both movements.
As far as deadlifts, I do touch and go if I'm at a reasonable weight, probably... 70-80% max weight? If I'm trying for more like 90-100% max weight, I do complete stops and lift again. Now, my stop is not 5 minutes, more like 3 seconds, but it's hard to have a fluid motion for deadlifts when you are near max weight, and I find it near impossible to do deadlifts without touching the floor at all. That just doesn't make sense to me.
That being said, I have a degree in teacher education. And we all know that in America, that's about worthless.0 -
It sounds like someone saying nobody should eat peanuts because some people are allergic to them.However, he did say that the overhead press is a dangerous exercise, mainly because it forces your bones into a locked position, which is unnatural, and may lead to rotator cuff injuries; it is really bad for your shoulders. I don't remember his exact words, and I may be waaayyy off regarding what he said, but the main point is that some people may do the overhead press their entire lives and not have any injuries (like Mehdi - creator of Stronglifts), but for others it isn't the same.0 -
I am 45 years old, used to bench 3 sets of 12 @ 100 pounds and OHP was my favourite exercise. I also used to be pretty good at handstands and walk overs and enjoyed working on my handstand push-ups. Now that I am in my forties, and after shoulder surgery, I can do none of these any more.
I love Strong Lifts and have read the book several times.
Ten years ago I was the OHP and chest press queen.
I will never do another OHP again though. I have paid dearly for continually and repeatedly impinging my supraspinatus.
My surgeon has even scraped some of the bone off my acrimony process (the bone at the top of my shoulder which sandwiches the rotator cuff muscles between it and the humorous) in the hopes that I will not impinge my rotator cuff muscle again. The shoulder is a very complicated joint.
Also see this:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/shoulder_shocker
If you must OHP do it right!!!! Make sure you put as much effort into your pulls, deadlifts and rows as you do you presses. I'll say it again, my goal is to develop strong deltoids but I will not do OHP again.
And at the end of this post I will admit that I am biased. But I have been going to physiotherapy for over six years, I've had shoulder surgery, and a frozen shoulder. The long process has been painful and it interferes with quality of life. I'm just grateful I didn't suffer from depression throughout it all.
So there's my strong opinion:)0 -
It sounds like someone saying nobody should eat peanuts because some people are allergic to them.However, he did say that the overhead press is a dangerous exercise, mainly because it forces your bones into a locked position, which is unnatural, and may lead to rotator cuff injuries; it is really bad for your shoulders. I don't remember his exact words, and I may be waaayyy off regarding what he said, but the main point is that some people may do the overhead press their entire lives and not have any injuries (like Mehdi - creator of Stronglifts), but for others it isn't the same.
And I don't know how you test for this "allergy". You could have an MRI, but that would not image your shoulder in movement.0 -
I get an entirely different result from conventional vs SLDL. The straight-legged ends when my hams/glutes can't do anymore, where a big set of conventional DLs ends with cement in my quads.Conventional: what I'm doing right now - resting the bar on the ground after each rep
Romanian: the same as what I'm doing right now, except, that I don't rest the bar on the ground after each rep; the bar should only go down to about mid-shin
Stiff-legged: your kness stay straight the entire time - seems like more of a stretch than an actual weight lifting exercise - there's no point for me to do this0 -
Sorry, but you have not happened upon a lifting yoda at your community gym. You're better off sticking to the deadlift and the overhead press. But do what you like.0
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This would be a corollary of the Dunning-Kruger effect. (Someone who does not have expertise in a field would be unable to judge whether or not someone else really is an expert, for the same reason that they would not be good at judging their own competence in that field.)This guy knows what he's talking about though. He told me the kinseology aspect of his reasoning.
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I think the people having problems with the OHP are just trying to push to much weight. It is a full body lift and people dont like that they cant push the weight like they can with the seated DB press.
When I first started it I hated it because even the bar was heavy when I tried to maintain proper form. Went from doing 30lbs DB's in each hand with the seated shoulder press to just a bare bar with the OHP. Stuck with it and the strength gains came quickly. Great lift for the entire core and hits the shoulders just fine.0 -
I got an inguinal hernia, so should I now advise everyone in the world to not hold their breath or use a lifting belt to create internal abdominal pressure?
It sounds like someone saying nobody should eat peanuts because some people are allergic to them.However, he did say that the overhead press is a dangerous exercise, mainly because it forces your bones into a locked position, which is unnatural, and may lead to rotator cuff injuries; it is really bad for your shoulders. I don't remember his exact words, and I may be waaayyy off regarding what he said, but the main point is that some people may do the overhead press their entire lives and not have any injuries (like Mehdi - creator of Stronglifts), but for others it isn't the same.
And I don't know how you test for this "allergy". You could have an MRI, but that would not image your shoulder in movement.0 -
In conclusion: should I replace overhead press with standing dumbbell shoulder press & should I stop resting the barbell on the floor after each rep while doing deadlifts?
Good topic, the problem here is the problem with a lot of physical fitness related topics. There are a lot of reputable people and organizations with varying opinions. I think it comes down to what works best for you, and gets you the results you want with the least wear and tear. Lets be honest our bodies wont last forever and no matter how perfect your form or how careful you are the pains are gonna come. Here is my opinion.
Standing dumbbell/ barbell press: This is me all the way. I strive for a standing form that not only hits the shoulders but involves my abs and my back greatly, something i have not been able to obtain while sitting.
Deadlifts: I agree with your trainer, the intent (as i was taught) is to have the muscles engaged through the whole range of motion of said exercise. Leaving the weight on the ground does nothing for your muscles, however when i do deadlifts I ensure the plates touch the ground and immediately go back up. Ultimately I do this so that I know I am going through the complete range of motion.
I live by the principle that if there is an area of the "range of motion" that the muscles aren't engaged, than it shouldn't be a part of the "range of motion" (some exceptions of course).0 -
Leaving the weight on the ground does everything for your muscles. The point of a deadlift is in the name. You lift a dead weight from the ground. If you bounce the weight off the ground, you're using momentum to get it back up, which is cheating on the lift, and ultimately cheating yourself of the full benefits. The weight should come to a dead stop on the ground, hence "dead"lift.In conclusion: should I replace overhead press with standing dumbbell shoulder press & should I stop resting the barbell on the floor after each rep while doing deadlifts?
Good topic, the problem here is the problem with a lot of physical fitness related topics. There are a lot of reputable people and organizations with varying opinions. I think it comes down to what works best for you, and gets you the results you want with the least wear and tear. Lets be honest our bodies wont last forever and no matter how perfect your form or how careful you are the pains are gonna come. Here is my opinion.
Standing dumbbell/ barbell press: This is me all the way. I strive for a standing form that not only hits the shoulders but involves my abs and my back greatly, something i have not been able to obtain while sitting.
Deadlifts: I agree with your trainer, the intent (as i was taught) is to have the muscles engaged through the whole range of motion of said exercise. Leaving the weight on the ground does nothing for your muscles, however when i do deadlifts I ensure the plates touch the ground and immediately go back up. Ultimately I do this so that I know I am going through the complete range of motion.
I live by the principle that if there is an area of the "range of motion" that the muscles aren't engaged, than it shouldn't be a part of the "range of motion" (some exceptions of course).0 -
Okay, not gonna worry about what he says, because he says that every program will lead to process regardless. Therefore, I'm sticking with it. However, he did say that the overhead press is a dangerous exercise, mainly because it forces your bones into a locked position, which is unnatural, and may lead to rotator cuff injuries; it is really bad for your shoulders. I don't remember his exact words, and I may be waaayyy off regarding what he said, but the main point is that some people may do the overhead press their entire lives and not have any injuries (like Mehdi - creator of Stronglifts), but for others it isn't the same. He says that I should replace the overhead press with dumbbell shoulder press (standing shoulder press, not seated I'm assuming, else it wouldn't be a compound exercise)? He says that overhead press is not superior to dumbbell shoulder press in any way, and that is a fact.
I may not be understanding what your are saying. He says the overhead press is dangerous, but then tells you to do standing dumbbell shoulder presses because the barbell overhead press is not superior to the standing dumbbell shoulder press? That's a mouthful. Anyway, regardless, I don't know if this area has been studied in great depth. One self-admittedly limited study at least found this:
This very limited study showed this for similar exercises: "We compared 4 shoulder press exercises: seated military press, standing military press, seated dumbbell press, and standing dumbbell press. This study demonstrated that combining 2 common instability-inducing strategies in shoulder presses the (standing + dumbbells) increased deltoid muscle activation. This was despite the fact that the resistance-trained volunteers lifted the least weight in this exercise. Our findings suggest that standing dumbbell presses may be more beneficial for muscular development of the deltoid muscles than more stable alternatives, however, if mechanical power output is a higher priority, more stable alternatives may be preferable. Furthermore, both standing instead of seated body position and dumbbells instead of barbell as the loading modality increased the stability requirement compared with seated and barbell execution, and we suggest to include these factors in periodized resistance training programs, which may reduce the risk of injuries and provide variation for athletes and others engaging in resistance training. Furthermore, as many sports require standing position and independent arm move- ments (pitching, smashing, and serving), we suggest, according the principle of training specificity, that these instability- inducing variables may be beneficial. Finally, in shoulder rehabilitation, standing shoulder presses may be a viable choice as higher muscle activation can be attained with lower external load."
http://romanoroberts.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Effects_of_Body_Position_and_Loading_Modality_on.10.pdf
So, in just comparing the standing versions, according to this limited study, you may be able to move more weight with a standing barbell version if that's your thing, but the standing dumbbell version has more stability requirements if that's your thing.0 -
Re-assessed...... Dead-Lift, Dead weight, from the floor to the floor, makes sense.
My question is overall whats the preferred method regarding the deadlift? I touch pause then right back up, i have seen it done without touching the ground, i have seen it done with as much as a three to five second pause (this one more often).0 -
Read through quickly and didn't see much in-depth explanation about the proper technique for OHP. Deads have been well-explained.
This breaks down what's in Starting Strength quite well, everything from position of the bar across the palm to lock-out position, as well as videos of Rip himself coaching the press: http://getthisstrength.com/main-lifts/overhead-press-form0 -
Good god this is why I hate trainers. Not the fine, smart, professional PTs ere on MFP, but the broscience morons like this dimwit.
The guy is an idiot. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Your first red flag is him crapping all over SL 5x5 as a valid strength building routine. A person can certainly say it's not what they want to do, maybe they don't like building functional strength or whatever, but to say it's no good shows his lack of real knowledge. Then on top of that, him not understanding the practical benefits to the standing OHP or why it's superior to seated dumbbell presses just makes him an imbecile of the highest order.
Now ask me how I really feel.0 -
So I think I'm going to stop overhead pressing, and instead replace it with standing dumbbell shoulder press. Does anyone have any tips for the standing shoulder press? How do I make it so that my lower back isn't stressed? Do I just lower the weight? Tighten my back?
Okay you really shouldn't get rid of the overhead press just because you're doing it wrong. There are plenty of YouTube videos that will go over proper form on the overhead press and how to protect your spine. What you need is practice and training. Lighten the weight, work on your form. Mastering the overhead press properly isn't something that you do fast. There are way too many nuances to it.
Of course its just my opinion. But I wouldn't get rid of it just because I wasn't getting it right yet and it's difficult.0 -
After some research, I've identified all the deadlift forms:
Conventional: what I'm doing right now - resting the bar on the ground after each rep
Romanian: the same as what I'm doing right now, except, that I don't rest the bar on the ground after each rep; the bar should only go down to about mid-shin
Stiff-legged: your kness stay straight the entire time - seems like more of a stretch than an actual weight lifting exercise - there's no point for me to do this
So... this leaves the conventional deadlift and the romanian deadlift. Which one is better? My personal trainer seems to say that the romanian deadlift is better.
I like that you're doing research on the different forms that's good. You did miss a couple: Sumos and Jeffersons. I love the deadlift and I practice all forms.
You're asking the wrong questions though. No form is better, they work your muscles differently. Knowing which ones from experience will work hamstrings vs quads more or which ones put more stress on your lower back or adductors and why would be good to learn. There's a lot to know with the deadlift.
There's also how you grab the weight, alternating grips or using the trap bar vs straight bar that will stress your muscles differently.
And yes there's different reasons and schools of thought on how/when/if the bar touches the ground. There are basically 3 choices in most cases: weight doesn't touch, weight taps rapidly, weight drops and resets. In my experience all 3 are valid depending on your goals, how heavy the weight is and which form is being used.
So IMO you need to broaden your knowledge and experience way beyond this trainer if you want to seriously apply the deadlift. I think it's the best exercise there is and really learning/using it will lean you up and build muscle faster than almost anything else.0 -
Re-assessed...... Dead-Lift, Dead weight, from the floor to the floor, makes sense.
My question is overall whats the preferred method regarding the deadlift? I touch pause then right back up, i have seen it done without touching the ground, i have seen it done with as much as a three to five second pause (this one more often).
it's entirely up to you.
for heavy weights (when i'm at or close to my max) i let it rest on the ground, and while still holding the barbell i raise my butt in the air and drop it down to reset and pull again. i want full range of motion. i find that the touch and go way of dead lifting is easier on lighter weights, around 50% of my max.0 -
This guy is a moron and is also wrong. Every powerlifter in the world will tell you he is wrong.
Do not be fooled by his illusions, he'll talk a good game to try to fill your ears with crap that sounds like it makes sense, but it's all just hot air.
The biggest reason, the absolutely biggest reason (after my nutrition of course) I got so muscular after only 6 months coming from having little to no muscle at all is because of big compound lifts, this includes the deadlift and overhead press. Not only are they ridiculously good mass builders, but they actually strengthened my joints. My hips don't pop and crack anymore, and my double-jointed shoulders stay in place throughout all my lifts, whereas when I was starting they would regularly creak around and push forward or backwards.
Those lifts are essential, unless you have health-based reasons for not doing them, everyone should have them in their lifting repertoire. You need to lose that trainer, he doesn't know what he's talking about and is only doing more harm than good.
Remember, in the lifting world, 99% of the time when someone decries an exercise, says it's dangerous, or has no benefits, they are usually talking about how they screwed it up and screwed up themselves.
The guy at my gym who always tells me not to do hyperextensions? He actually hyperextended his back when he did it, which you're not supposed to do, and injured himself.
My friend who always refers to deadlifts as snap-city? Slipped a disc because he always rounded his lower back.
The dude who says he hates leg days while spotting me for my squats because he thinks it ruins your knees? When I saw him squat he leaned too far forward and rounded his lower back.
Without fail, people that tell you not to do accredited, useful exercises, are people that failed to do them properly, and instead of fixing their issues, instead of assigning blame to themselves and remedying the issue, decided to blame the lift instead.
So not only is he an idiot, he's probably also a narcissist, don't follow him home.
He might eat you.
Well said. You are 110% correct.0 -
IMO there's nothing wrong with OHP - I've been doing it for 9 months. If you prefer to go with your trainers recommendation and do dumbells presses then there's nothing wrong with them either.
As to dead lifts, it sounds like your trainer is recommending either Romanian or stiff legged deadlifts - I wouldn't say these are better (I do normal deadlifts (with no problems btw) and Romanian as an assistance exercise).
I'm just not sure why you've selected a programme and then want to pick holes in it. Either do Stronglifts or do a programme your trainer has made for you. If you're looking for the scientific reasons behind each exercise either do your own research by reading scientific papers/books/articles or pick a trusted programme where someone has done all that studying for you - I know which one I'd choose.0
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