Squating lower with heavier weights
Krustpie
Posts: 25
I think I have a mental block that I can't figure out why and could do with some advice.
When moving to heavier weights (back and front squats) I find that I stop squating low enough. I know I should go lower, I know I can go lower, I know that if I drop the bar it won't hurt me.
Any thoughts?
When moving to heavier weights (back and front squats) I find that I stop squating low enough. I know I should go lower, I know I can go lower, I know that if I drop the bar it won't hurt me.
Any thoughts?
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Replies
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fail a lift on purpose- even with just the bar- it's worth knowing HOW to fail and what that feels like.0
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You might have hit the nail on the head, I don't like failing. I'll give it a go next time I am in. Thank you0
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You don't have to go 90 degrees or full squat.
Do a half squat until you feel comfortable with the 'heavy' weight.
You will get stronger and be more comfortable going down to a full squat.
It will take time.
There are so many variations of exercises and tempo squats you can do to improve upon this... but that's a whole other essay to write about.0 -
You don't have to go 90 degrees or full squat.
Do a half squat until you feel comfortable with the 'heavy' weight.
You will get stronger and be more comfortable going down to a full squat.
It will take time.
There are so many variations of exercises and tempo squats you can do to improve upon this... but that's a whole other essay to write about.
half squats won't make someone able to do full squats, because it doesn't work the muscles necessary to do full squats. you just end up being able to do half squats with really heavy weights, and full squats only with light weights.
if someone can't go below parallel on squats, they need to deload to a weight at which they can go parallel, then work up to heavier weights by squatting below parallel and increasing the weight on the bar as their strength increases
if someone can't go below parallel at all, then that's a form issue and that needs to be worked on before putting weights on the bar, or even just holding a broomstick.0 -
I squat and deadlift on the same day. So I lower the weight on the squat rack and then rack pull it to the floor. I've done this with weight I wasn't comfortable repping out on a squat...at first. Now I'm not as intimidated by the weight, helped me add 30 pounds to my squat in 1 day!
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I find I go slightly shallower the heavier the weight, but always at least to parallel. If I find I can't hit parallel on a weight, I deload, focusing on getting even lower into my squat on any given weight.0
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I realised I wasn't going low enough and decided to go right back down to a low weight. I started with a 7kg bar and have been adding around 1kg each time I squat. I'm on 10.5kg now with perfect form, going below parallel on each squat. I would really recommend doing this and taking it slow.0
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When I was first squatting in a commercial gym I would grab one of the aerobic steps and set it up at a height that would get me a below parallel squat. I would lightly touch the step at the bottom of each rep and that ensured consistent depth and kept me from cheating on heavier weights.0
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could be a lot of things, but, weak hamstrings is my guess.... as it gets heavier you may lean forward and put more on weight your quads.. think about where you feel it in your foot... do you stop driving thru the heels and move forward in the foot.. if so its probably what I suggested... thsi is pretty common... If you fall into this rut its good to remember that your proper warmup sets are crucial because they are the only ones helping your hams catch up. lengthening the hams thru stretching is also very helpful
if you have this issue youlll also find yourself having your butt higher on heavier deadlifts and itll recruit more back and cause some rounding most likely
the obvious solution is to work on your hamstrings thru proper form, isolation exercises (e.g. lying leg curls), and stretching the hams properly0 -
could be a lot of things, but, weak hamstrings is my guess.... as it gets heavier you may lean forward and put more on weight your quads.. think about where you feel it in your foot... do you stop driving thru the heels and move forward in the foot.. if so its probably what I suggested... thsi is pretty common... If you fall into this rut its good to remember that your proper warmup sets are crucial because they are the only ones helping your hams catch up. lengthening the hams thru stretching is also very helpful
if you have this issue youlll also find yourself having your butt higher on heavier deadlifts and itll recruit more back and cause some rounding most likely
the obvious solution is to work on your hamstrings thru proper form, isolation exercises (e.g. lying leg curls), and stretching the hams properly
Hamstrings aren't the most important muscle group in squats, and actually, over engaging them may limit the amount of weight one can squat ( http://pushingitfurther.com/?p=106 ). Hamstrings are crucial to deadlifts, and having good mobility in the muscle is important, but glute activation is far more important in squats than hamstring activation.0 -
You don't have to go 90 degrees or full squat.
Do a half squat until you feel comfortable with the 'heavy' weight.
You will get stronger and be more comfortable going down to a full squat.
It will take time.
There are so many variations of exercises and tempo squats you can do to improve upon this... but that's a whole other essay to write about.
I have to disagree. You need to go to parallel or lower. If you can't with a heavy weight you need to deload.
Also, I hope you are doing warm up sets before your work set. For example if your work sets are at 245, do something like the following:
2 sets of 5 with the empty barm(45 lbs)
1 set of 5 at 115
1 set of 5 at 145
1 set of 3 at 185
1 set of 2 at 205
For each of these, it should be fairly easy to ensure that you go below parallel. THen when you get to your work sets you'll have perfected your technique and can focus solely on the weight0 -
could be a lot of things, but, weak hamstrings is my guess.... as it gets heavier you may lean forward and put more on weight your quads.. think about where you feel it in your foot... do you stop driving thru the heels and move forward in the foot.. if so its probably what I suggested... thsi is pretty common... If you fall into this rut its good to remember that your proper warmup sets are crucial because they are the only ones helping your hams catch up. lengthening the hams thru stretching is also very helpful
if you have this issue youlll also find yourself having your butt higher on heavier deadlifts and itll recruit more back and cause some rounding most likely
the obvious solution is to work on your hamstrings thru proper form, isolation exercises (e.g. lying leg curls), and stretching the hams properly
Hamstrings aren't the most important muscle group in squats, and actually, over engaging them may limit the amount of weight one can squat ( http://pushingitfurther.com/?p=106 ). Hamstrings are crucial to deadlifts, and having good mobility in the muscle is important, but glute activation is far more important in squats than hamstring activation.
From the link you provided (supporting what I said):
" I personally think you should instead squat in a more efficient manner (either high or low bar, trying to maintain a more upright torso and prioritizing quad involvement), while also doing some accessory work for your hamstrings such as GHRs, hamstring curls, or RDLs since, like we’ve already established, the squat is NOT a good hamstring builder anyways!
Now, just to preempt a question I know will pop up – I am NOT saying you shouldn’t train your hamstrings. Strong hamstrings mean a big deadlift, healthy knees, and a potentially lower risk of hamstring tears. Just don’t use the squat to train your hamstrings. Use hamstrings exercises to train your hamstrings."
I never said hamstrings are the dominating muscle in a squat, but, Both I and the author of that article would agree that its a crucial muscle to the squat and that they need to be trained for you to maintain proper form. If you don't see that in the text than I doubt you read teh article.0 -
You don't have to go 90 degrees or full squat.
Do a half squat until you feel comfortable with the 'heavy' weight.
You will get stronger and be more comfortable going down to a full squat.
It will take time.
There are so many variations of exercises and tempo squats you can do to improve upon this... but that's a whole other essay to write about.
Congratulations on the worst squat advice ever.
OP: Try working in paused squats to your program. It will make you more comfortable in the hole. And be sure you're keeping your air in your core until you're on your way back up in each repetition. Some people get a wee bit of panic as weights get heavier and lose tightness in the descent through the hips, which can also tend to make them reverse the motion before they hit depth.0 -
I think I have a mental block that I can't figure out why and could do with some advice.
When moving to heavier weights (back and front squats) I find that I stop squating low enough. I know I should go lower, I know I can go lower, I know that if I drop the bar it won't hurt me.
Any thoughts?
You could use a Smith machine to get used to slowly learning the movement of a full squat. Once grooved - take it to the free weights. This could take months or even longer, so be patient and focus on correct form.
That being said, a full squat vs. a parallel (or slightly above parallel) squat is always full of debate. Depending on your goals or needs or what you do for athletics - a full squat may not be necessary. Cylcists, sprinters and runners benefit more from just going to parallel or slightly above parallel. You could throw everyone who leads a more sedentary life into that category as well. Powerlifters are the ones who benefit the most from a full squat. And depending on your age and how much meniscus you have left in the knee - you may or may not want to be going to a full squat position in the first place.
If you are a powerlifter or trying to break some gym records - then go for the full squat position even though it could take months to years to learn. Otherwise, I serioiusly would not worry about it. I think the best rule I've heard is "better to be high and safe, than break parallel and your back ". I'm a cyclist/runner and stay slightly above parrallel to parallel - not to mention both knees have been scoped. My son, goes full squat and broke every squat record at his school. We both benefit from our own version of the squats.0 -
could be a lot of things, but, weak hamstrings is my guess.... as it gets heavier you may lean forward and put more on weight your quads.. think about where you feel it in your foot... do you stop driving thru the heels and move forward in the foot.. if so its probably what I suggested... thsi is pretty common... If you fall into this rut its good to remember that your proper warmup sets are crucial because they are the only ones helping your hams catch up. lengthening the hams thru stretching is also very helpful
if you have this issue youlll also find yourself having your butt higher on heavier deadlifts and itll recruit more back and cause some rounding most likely
the obvious solution is to work on your hamstrings thru proper form, isolation exercises (e.g. lying leg curls), and stretching the hams properly
Hamstrings aren't the most important muscle group in squats, and actually, over engaging them may limit the amount of weight one can squat ( http://pushingitfurther.com/?p=106 ). Hamstrings are crucial to deadlifts, and having good mobility in the muscle is important, but glute activation is far more important in squats than hamstring activation.
From the link you provided (supporting what I said):
" I personally think you should instead squat in a more efficient manner (either high or low bar, trying to maintain a more upright torso and prioritizing quad involvement), while also doing some accessory work for your hamstrings such as GHRs, hamstring curls, or RDLs since, like we’ve already established, the squat is NOT a good hamstring builder anyways!
Now, just to preempt a question I know will pop up – I am NOT saying you shouldn’t train your hamstrings. Strong hamstrings mean a big deadlift, healthy knees, and a potentially lower risk of hamstring tears. Just don’t use the squat to train your hamstrings. Use hamstrings exercises to train your hamstrings."
I never said hamstrings are the dominating muscle in a squat, but, Both I and the author of that article would agree that its a crucial muscle to the squat and that they need to be trained for you to maintain proper form. If you don't see that in the text than I doubt you read teh article.
The fact that you jumped right to the conclusion of weak hamstrings being the problem gave me the impression that you believed them to be a primary mover in the squat motion. Forgive my misinterpretation.
The hamstrings are important, I would never deny that, but I think assuming that's the first problem in someone's squat is a faulty assumption. quad strength and technique is more important. Overly cueing the hamstrings actually reduces the amount of knee extension in the squat, leading to a weaker squat. IT might not be super important at this point in the OP's lifting career, but hamstring dominant squats can lead to the development of bad form issues, such as the 'good morning squat' which can be a stumbling block in the future.0 -
Cylcists, sprinters and runners benefit more from just going to parallel or slightly above parallel. You could throw everyone who leads a more sedentary life into that category as well. Powerlifters are the ones who benefit the most from a full squat. And depending on your age and how much meniscus you have left in the knee - you may or may not want to be going to a full squat position in the first place.
No one benefits from squatting above parallel except people who prefer to have their knees shredded.0 -
Cylcists, sprinters and runners benefit more from just going to parallel or slightly above parallel. You could throw everyone who leads a more sedentary life into that category as well. Powerlifters are the ones who benefit the most from a full squat. And depending on your age and how much meniscus you have left in the knee - you may or may not want to be going to a full squat position in the first place.
No one benefits from squatting above parallel except people who prefer to have their knees shredded.
The cycling stroke ends just above parallel. Squatting to a very similar position is specific training for the pedal stroke and is well used by professional cyclists. One of the greatest coaches for Olympic sprinters in history advocated the 1/2 squats for all his sprinters and runners.
Just saying - we don't all have the same needs (or knees) when it comes to the squat. I have no idea what the OP's needs are which is why I asked.0 -
Cylcists, sprinters and runners benefit more from just going to parallel or slightly above parallel. You could throw everyone who leads a more sedentary life into that category as well. Powerlifters are the ones who benefit the most from a full squat. And depending on your age and how much meniscus you have left in the knee - you may or may not want to be going to a full squat position in the first place.
No one benefits from squatting above parallel except people who prefer to have their knees shredded.
The cycling stroke ends just above parallel. Squatting to a very similar position is specific training for the pedal stroke and is well used by professional cyclists. One of the greatest coaches for Olympic sprinters in history advocated the 1/2 squats for all his sprinters and runners.
Just saying - we don't all have the same needs (or knees) when it comes to the squat. I have no idea what the OP's needs are which is why I asked.
I get that the cycling stroke mimics a half squat, but above-parallel squatting is what damages people's knees. The squat movement is dramatically different than the cycling movement, with joint loading that makes it potentially detrimental in partial ROM. I'd love to see something by this Olympic coach you are referring too.0 -
Cylcists, sprinters and runners benefit more from just going to parallel or slightly above parallel. You could throw everyone who leads a more sedentary life into that category as well. Powerlifters are the ones who benefit the most from a full squat. And depending on your age and how much meniscus you have left in the knee - you may or may not want to be going to a full squat position in the first place.
No one benefits from squatting above parallel except people who prefer to have their knees shredded.
The cycling stroke ends just above parallel. Squatting to a very similar position is specific training for the pedal stroke and is well used by professional cyclists. One of the greatest coaches for Olympic sprinters in history advocated the 1/2 squats for all his sprinters and runners.
Just saying - we don't all have the same needs (or knees) when it comes to the squat. I have no idea what the OP's needs are which is why I asked.
I get that the cycling stroke mimics a half squat, but above-parallel squatting is what damages people's knees. The squat movement is dramatically different than the cycling movement, with joint loading that makes it potentially detrimental in partial ROM. I'd love to see something by this Olympic coach you are referring too.
Charlie Francis - author of Speed Trap (where it is all explained), coach of some of the world's best sprinters. Unfortunately, some of them were in the era of PED's (Ben Johnson), but the entire body of his coaching career consistently produced some of the best running athletes in history.
Cyclists do a lot of "jump squats" in the final power phase of weight training (using 45-60% of 1RM weight) which really requires a Smith machine to prevent injury. High and fast repetiions with lower weights that begin from the parallel position. Again - these are cycling specific squats and the leg position at the top of the stroke is parallel to slightly above parallel depending on the cyclists bike set up. The internet and books on cycling are filled with images and descriptions of not doing full squats. Sorry.0 -
Oh Crumbs what have I started? I know I have to squat lower & with form. Unloading and moving up slower sounds like great advice and failing on purpose also might stop my block on increasing the load. Thank you all for your comments and I will see how I get on this week.0
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For me, squats are both the best and worst exercise you can do.
Best because it works the quads, hams, glutes, back, abs, shoulders, traps and arms when performed correctly. Worst because it can screw up the quads, hams, glutes, back, abs, shoulders, traps and arms if done incorrectly.
Barbell squats are the way to go. You can't follow proper form with the Smith machine, and if you're not careful, you can hurt yourself because you're forcing your body to follow the machine's path rather than the body's.
When I perform a squat, I concentrate on pretending as if I'm going to sit down on a bench with the weight. When I almost reach that point, then I focus on pushing the weight up with my heels. There are a couple other things, such as holding in the abs, keeping my back straight, gripping the bar as if I was going to bend it around my neck (without putting pressure on my neck) and exploding the weight back up rather than trying to "force a burn" by going up slowly (and tearing up the back).
I'm going to qualify this by also admitting that I have knee issues that comes from jumping out of airplanes in my younger years; so I'm very careful about how I perform squats. It's also why I read articles and pay more attention to them than what's posted on some website.
Just sharing what works for me.
Your mileage may vary.
Good luck0 -
Cylcists, sprinters and runners benefit more from just going to parallel or slightly above parallel. You could throw everyone who leads a more sedentary life into that category as well. Powerlifters are the ones who benefit the most from a full squat. And depending on your age and how much meniscus you have left in the knee - you may or may not want to be going to a full squat position in the first place.
No one benefits from squatting above parallel except people who prefer to have their knees shredded.
The cycling stroke ends just above parallel. Squatting to a very similar position is specific training for the pedal stroke and is well used by professional cyclists. One of the greatest coaches for Olympic sprinters in history advocated the 1/2 squats for all his sprinters and runners.
Just saying - we don't all have the same needs (or knees) when it comes to the squat. I have no idea what the OP's needs are which is why I asked.
I get that the cycling stroke mimics a half squat, but above-parallel squatting is what damages people's knees. The squat movement is dramatically different than the cycling movement, with joint loading that makes it potentially detrimental in partial ROM. I'd love to see something by this Olympic coach you are referring too.
Charlie Francis - author of Speed Trap (where it is all explained), coach of some of the world's best sprinters. Unfortunately, some of them were in the era of PED's (Ben Johnson), but the entire body of his coaching career consistently produced some of the best running athletes in history.
Cyclists do a lot of "jump squats" in the final power phase of weight training (using 45-60% of 1RM weight) which really requires a Smith machine to prevent injury. High and fast repetiions with lower weights that begin from the parallel position. Again - these are cycling specific squats and the leg position at the top of the stroke is parallel to slightly above parallel depending on the cyclists bike set up. The internet and books on cycling are filled with images and descriptions of not doing full squats. Sorry.
thanks for the info!0 -
You don't have to go 90 degrees or full squat.
Do a half squat until you feel comfortable with the 'heavy' weight.
You will get stronger and be more comfortable going down to a full squat.
It will take time.
There are so many variations of exercises and tempo squats you can do to improve upon this... but that's a whole other essay to write about.
I don't really like this advice. I would prefer to have the person go for a full range for the heaviest weight they can do with good form (no rounding, no hyper extending, no hip cork-screwing from the bottom). If you can't go for full range of motion (barring no significant injury) then drop the weight.0 -
You don't have to go 90 degrees or full squat.
Do a half squat until you feel comfortable with the 'heavy' weight.
You will get stronger and be more comfortable going down to a full squat.
It will take time.
There are so many variations of exercises and tempo squats you can do to improve upon this... but that's a whole other essay to write about.
I don't really like this advice. I would prefer to have the person go for a full range for the heaviest weight they can do with good form (no rounding, no hyper extending, no hip cork-screwing from the bottom). If you can't go for full range of motion (barring no significant injury) then drop the weight.
I've actually done partial squats loaded- on purpose... coming as down to whatever I was comfortable and then back up- I hate doing it- and I don't recommend it to ANYONE. But it has been helpful to me to do it purely for the mental block aspect.
But again- I would never recommend it and never for full sets- mostly for one or two sets- single reps each. When I've done it I've gone as far as comfortable- re-racked. Break. Again- little lower. Re-Rack- break. all the way down to just below/at the official parallel line.
I get stuck in the hole- so my goal was to try to do a NOT ATG squat and figure out what that meant for me.
but it's not fun. it sucks.0 -
Check out this article....it's easily one of the best I have read (no surprise given that it was written by Dave Tate) regarding squats. I have since started using a low box to train squats and it really does make a big difference. If you do have a fear of failing, this method will for sure help you get over it plus it's great for form.
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/sports-training/dave-tates-free-squat-manual/
In addition, you don't have to ATG in your squat in order for it to be effective. I also wouldn't recommend the half squat as someone else did, but going to parallel or even just above is perfectly fine.0 -
Really good article, thank you Vegus Baby. So last night I took it right back to basics and worked with just a bar with no added weights and worked on making sure I had the right depth of squat, repeating the move and feeling that little movement that you get when you know the squat is right. Tonight I have lined up my spotter and will go for the heavier weights.
Thank you again for your comments.0 -
Again thank you all for your comments. I spent an hour last night with one of my instructors, breaking my technique down to see where I was failing/faultering, captured the movement on record and again worked until I kept getting it right. So I now have a plan and homework.0
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Oh Crumbs what have I started? I know I have to squat lower & with form. Unloading and moving up slower sounds like great advice and failing on purpose also might stop my block on increasing the load. Thank you all for your comments and I will see how I get on this week.
I've just gone through this myself...and realized that I wasn't going low enough so I deloaded and went atg and yup I would have failed at the higher weights...I don't like failing either...
Oh another thing I did was watched the so you think you can squat and so you think you can deadlift series on youtube....
all I can say is WOW I wish he was my trainer....0 -
The Dave Tate article that Vegasbaby posted was really interesting so I will definatly take a look at the youtubes, thank you.0
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Fall back on your hamstrings and do not let your knees go past your toes. Come up with your heels. I usually prefer *kitten* to grass deep squats but thats just me. Some just go 90 degrees.0
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