Advanced calorie deficits (Fair Warning - long post)
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Awesome post!
Thank you!0 -
This is a great read. I think if more people understood the science behind how the body works and that there is variation, MFP message boards would be a happier place. It's so silly when people are celebrating 10 pound weight losses in 1 week and inconsolable when they gain 4 pounds in 1 day. Why would we celebrate or mourn changes in water weight?
My take is that many people are trying to make things too simple and ironically make things more complex. The calories in versus calories out simplicity is pretty true when kept within limited bounds. Just like Newtonian physics is just fine for explaining how larger objects and reasonable speeds interact. You don't need quantum mechanics to predict how an apple falls to the ground.
People are making things more complex through three things. Making changes that are too big and expecting very consistent results and expecting results too quickly. You're calculated TDEE is probably 10% off your actual TDEE. That sucks. One could go through a much more complex process to figure it out. Or they can make small adjustments based on feedback.
Let me spell it out. Track your current caloric intake. Calculate TDEE. Calculate a cut that lets you lose a REASONABLE amount of weight. If you got out of 15% or 20% cut, you're probably going to push out of where the TDEE - x% model works. Just like how you can't use Newtonian physics to predict behavior of sub-atomic particles. You know where you are and where you think you should be. Work towards that goal in increments. If you take in 3500 calories a day today and need to be at 2100 calories, it may be best to work to 2100 over a couple weeks. Small changes.
Then you're at calculated TDEE minus a reasonable percentage. You're probably going to have a couple minor problems. You may not lose weight as fast as you want. Wait a little bit. Like a month. If you aren't losing weight or losing too fast, make a small adjustment. Like 50 to 100 calories a day. Then wait. Repeat. You're basically looking for the minor variation from calculated TDEE where you actually exist.
Your second problem is that you might be really hungry. Look at your protein and fat. Make some small adjustments. Wait. See if you feel better. Avoid massive changes to macros and calories just because you gained 2 pounds in one day.
If you make small changes, you probably won't fall into starvation mode or whatever. You used a reasonable starting point and made small changes. It's a lot harder to miss the sweet spot with fine adjustments.
Why don't people do this? They want results NOW! So and so diet says you can lose 10 pounds in a week. Gee that sounds better than waiting a month to see if something is working and then losing 4 pounds per month. Personally, I would rather figure out how to function for a lifetime than lose 10 pounds of water and glycogen NOW.0 -
bump0
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This is a great read. I think if more people understood the science behind how the body works and that there is variation, MFP message boards would be a happier place. It's so silly when people are celebrating 10 pound weight losses in 1 week and inconsolable when they gain 4 pounds in 1 day. Why would we celebrate or mourn changes in water weight?
My take is that many people are trying to make things too simple and ironically make things more complex. The calories in versus calories out simplicity is pretty true when kept within limited bounds. Just like Newtonian physics is just fine for explaining how larger objects and reasonable speeds interact. You don't need quantum mechanics to predict how an apple falls to the ground.
People are making things more complex through three things. Making changes that are too big and expecting very consistent results and expecting results too quickly. You're calculated TDEE is probably 10% off your actual TDEE. That sucks. One could go through a much more complex process to figure it out. Or they can make small adjustments based on feedback.
Let me spell it out. Track your current caloric intake. Calculate TDEE. Calculate a cut that lets you lose a REASONABLE amount of weight. If you got out of 15% or 20% cut, you're probably going to push out of where the TDEE - x% model works. Just like how you can't use Newtonian physics to predict behavior of sub-atomic particles. You know where you are and where you think you should be. Work towards that goal in increments. If you take in 3500 calories a day today and need to be at 2100 calories, it may be best to work to 2100 over a couple weeks. Small changes.
Then you're at calculated TDEE minus a reasonable percentage. You're probably going to have a couple minor problems. You may not lose weight as fast as you want. Wait a little bit. Like a month. If you aren't losing weight or losing too fast, make a small adjustment. Like 50 to 100 calories a day. Then wait. Repeat. You're basically looking for the minor variation from calculated TDEE where you actually exist.
Your second problem is that you might be really hungry. Look at your protein and fat. Make some small adjustments. Wait. See if you feel better. Avoid massive changes to macros and calories just because you gained 2 pounds in one day.
If you make small changes, you probably won't fall into starvation mode or whatever. You used a reasonable starting point and made small changes. It's a lot harder to miss the sweet spot with fine adjustments.
Why don't people do this? They want results NOW! So and so diet says you can lose 10 pounds in a week. Gee that sounds better than waiting a month to see if something is working and then losing 4 pounds per month. Personally, I would rather figure out how to function for a lifetime than lose 10 pounds of water and glycogen NOW.
I can find no fault in your argument. I agree with everything you said there.0 -
Big Thumb Up.
However, I do have one question about this paragraph
"Starvation mode IS, in it's simplest form, your body's metabolic processes recognizing, over the course of days or more likely weeks, that it's receiving far fewer calories than it needs. This triggers two major functions. First, when in starvation mode the body will reduce energy consumption wherever it can, starting with the least important (in it's opinion) functions first. Second the body will use any extra calories it can find and store them as fat. So when someone says starvation mode is a myth, please try to explain that it's not a myth, it's just difficult to prove, and you can't just blithely say someone's in that state without some serious analysis. "
OP, how do we correlate this statement with dieting? True or false, but we all have to take in less food to lose weight and eventually our bodies learn how to deal with less amount food. And we usually do this for days, months even years...Would that be a type of "starvation mode"?0 -
Big Thumb Up.
However, I do have one question about this paragraph
"Starvation mode IS, in it's simplest form, your body's metabolic processes recognizing, over the course of days or more likely weeks, that it's receiving far fewer calories than it needs. This triggers two major functions. First, when in starvation mode the body will reduce energy consumption wherever it can, starting with the least important (in it's opinion) functions first. Second the body will use any extra calories it can find and store them as fat. So when someone says starvation mode is a myth, please try to explain that it's not a myth, it's just difficult to prove, and you can't just blithely say someone's in that state without some serious analysis. "
OP, how do we correlate this statement with dieting? True or false, but we all have to take in less food to lose weight and eventually our bodies learn how to deal with less amount food. And we usually do this for days, months even years...Would that be a type of "starvation mode"?
well, it's a good question, and again, not an easy answer. everyone is different, which is why I'm so big on the "tweak, test, analyze,retweak, repeat" method.
Remember what I wrote about the body making up for a small amount of deficit with fat stores, depending on your individual genetics, how fat is stored in your individual body, how much surface area fat you (again, as an individual) have that is accessible by those chemicals calling for energy, and depending on your own metabolic rates and pathways, it will vary. For most people, who are in decent shape and don't have a lot of fat to lose (for example a woman in the 18 to 22% Body Fat range or a man in the 14 to 18 % Body Fat range) you can probably get away with around 10% below TDEE as a deficit, but again, it's very individualized. And starvation mode isn't an on/off switch, it's really more of a gradual slope. When your body reaches a certain level you actually level out with loss vs. maintain. You will very rarely (see almost never) gain weight while in starvation mode unless you tend to eat drastically reduced calories for long periods followed by binges.0 -
Thanks SHBoss, very helpful!0
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bump0
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Is it possible to put all your posts into a blog? I would love to follow.
:flowerforyou:0 -
Big Thumb Up.
However, I do have one question about this paragraph
"Starvation mode IS, in it's simplest form, your body's metabolic processes recognizing, over the course of days or more likely weeks, that it's receiving far fewer calories than it needs. This triggers two major functions. First, when in starvation mode the body will reduce energy consumption wherever it can, starting with the least important (in it's opinion) functions first. Second the body will use any extra calories it can find and store them as fat. So when someone says starvation mode is a myth, please try to explain that it's not a myth, it's just difficult to prove, and you can't just blithely say someone's in that state without some serious analysis. "
OP, how do we correlate this statement with dieting? True or false, but we all have to take in less food to lose weight and eventually our bodies learn how to deal with less amount food. And we usually do this for days, months even years...Would that be a type of "starvation mode"?
well, it's a good question, and again, not an easy answer. everyone is different, which is why I'm so big on the "tweak, test, analyze,retweak, repeat" method.
Remember what I wrote about the body making up for a small amount of deficit with fat stores, depending on your individual genetics, how fat is stored in your individual body, how much surface area fat you (again, as an individual) have that is accessible by those chemicals calling for energy, and depending on your own metabolic rates and pathways, it will vary. For most people, who are in decent shape and don't have a lot of fat to lose (for example a woman in the 18 to 22% Body Fat range or a man in the 14 to 18 % Body Fat range) you can probably get away with around 10% below TDEE as a deficit, but again, it's very individualized. And starvation mode isn't an on/off switch, it's really more of a gradual slope. When your body reaches a certain level you actually level out with loss vs. maintain. You will very rarely (see almost never) gain weight while in starvation mode unless you tend to eat drastically reduced calories for long periods followed by binges.
Another excuse for me to refeed. LOL0 -
Glucose and ketones are the brains preferred fuels, but fat is the preferred fuel of muscle especially in aerobic conditions. This is why your liver converts all excess carbs via into fatty acids for storage.0
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Nice review.
Add that the adaptive thermogenesis is usually not in reference to the expected known effects of too big a deficit, like potential muscle mass loss resulting in lower TDEE, and eating less means less TEF resulting in lower TDEE, or weighing less means you burn less moving around resulting in lower TDEE.
But the effect also mentioned above about body slowing down spontaneous or non-exercise activity, possibly big lowering of TDEE.
And just the plain effect of body getting more efficient with BMR, TEF, and TDEE, causing a lowering.
It's that last one the studies haven't shown clear evidence of how long it takes to recover from, meaning metabolism and TDEE are back up at expected level based on LBM and what you could have been if not in extreme deficit.
That's where the slipping in to maintenance can be so bad. Some grind right in to it with little weight loss the final few weeks, showing just how little their maintenance is going to be now.
Not sure how the logic works that if no loss for 3-4 weeks, and someone just decides the last 2 lbs isn't needed to be lost, how they think they can now eat 500 more daily just because MFP says maintenance is that high.
Totally agree!
This is where I'm at. I'm still trying to lose those last few pounds as I haven't lost since October so I know I'm floating around maintenance. I'm still tweaking every little thing and trying to be patient but it's very frustrating.
I'm starting to think I may need to give my body a break from being in calorie deficit mode.
Well, there's the kicker - you literally are not, right?
From potential TDEE most likely yes, from literal at the moment TDEE no.
So increase slowly. Diet break weeks are always great ideas. The more reasonable the deficit in the first place, the less likely they are needed frequently.
But everyone has their own stress level, and what level of combined stresses their body is going to start adapting.
Probably why some people can start eating clean, same calories, and start losing. They had some food sensitivity, perhaps not full allergy, but enough it caused their body stress.
Combined with perhaps intense frequent exercise (wrong time for in a diet) stress, and diet stress, and lack of sleep, and life, ect - too much.0 -
Saving to come back to...0
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In... because this is really interesting!0
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bump for later reading0
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Bump, great read0
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bump, great read0
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great read!0
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So...to take this a step further....what, in your opinion, are symptoms or warning signs of starvation mode? How can one recognize they are in starvation mode?
ETA: Not trying to be snarky, just thought it was a good question to add to the discussion. I should also add that I have no idea what the answers to those questions are.
You can also see listlessness, fatigue or depression. (Obviously, there are a lot of other things that can cause these symptoms so they in no way definitively point to starvation mode, but if you see them begin or worsen in conjunction with a long-term caloric deficit, it's a warning sign). Another sign is fingernails that won't grow or become weak/brittle, but again there are a lot of other things that can cause that.0 -
Glucose and ketones are the brains preferred fuels, but fat is the preferred fuel of muscle especially in aerobic conditions. This is why your liver converts all excess carbs via into fatty acids for storage.
This is kinda true. I say that because when muscle is in a resting state, there's a balance between glycogen and FFA usage depending on serum glucose levels in the body, low serum levels means more glycogen usage. I can't speak to whether that's the reason why the body converts energy into FFA's, I've never read any studies postulating that before. To me it was just common sense, the body will use the most efficient storage path, with 9 calories per g for lipids vs 4 (+-) for carbohydrates, it's just reasonable to assume it will use the most efficient storage method. Whether that's accurate, I don't know. But if you have some studies or research that shows evidence of reasoning for conversion to lipids, I would truely like to read it.
I'm not being snarky at all, I mean it, I would like to read any information you have.
I make no bones about my own knowledge level, there's plenty I don't know, even after studying this stuff for many years. I'm always willing to learn more, and not afraid to say when I'm mistaken or misinformed about something.0
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