You can't build muscle at a calorie deficit? Why lift??
Replies
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Despite what most people on here believe, some people can build muscle at maintenance. In fact, a lot of people can do it. Their weight doesn't change, but their bodyfat decreases. It's called recomping. Seems to work better for women than men. The amount of muscle you can build and the speed at which you can do it by recomping is limited, though...it's something like 5-10 lbs in a few years of lifting.
No one can gain true weight at or below maintenance though. No one. And everyone loses weight on a true deficit.
But out of shape, obese people can sometimes recomp on a deficit. That means they lose fat but gain a little bit of muscle at the same time.
Skinny people can't build any muscle whatsoever on a deficit or at maintenance. They have to gain weight in order to gain muscle.
It's really that simple!
agree, but previous poster said she is in a 750 calorie daily deficit AND adding 2 pounds of muscle a month….
Yeah, there's (no offense) something wrong with her numbers.
lolz …my thoughts exactly …or on some serious steroids...0 -
lolz …my thoughts exactly …or on some serious steroids...
You can't build something out of nothing...period0 -
According to the book New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women, women can gain about 2.5 pounds of muscle in a month. According to many, many sites the body has the ability to convert excess protein into fat, so why is out of the realm of possibility that the body can also convert excess fat into protein (muscle)? There are many, many examples of people who have used excess, wearable calories (fat) to build muscle.0
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It is difficult to build muscle, but you need to lift to maintain what muscle mass you already have.0
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According to the book New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women, women can gain about 2.5 pounds of muscle in a month. According to many, many sites the body has the ability to convert excess protein into fat, so why is out of the realm of possibility that the body can also convert excess fat into protein (muscle)? There are many, many examples of people who have used excess, wearable calories (fat) to build muscle.
They can gain that much muscle for a few months after starting to lift. Not after, period. Not even men can gain 2.5 lbs muscle in a month beyond the first few months UNLESS they are under a massive caloric surplus, have incredible genetics, and hormones are great (possibly still natural with a great hormonal profile).
When fat is broken down, it's used for energy; Not converted into muscle tissue. It's two independent processes. Fat cannot be converted into protein or muscle tissue. It must be be broken down for energy and then the body must use excess energy to build muscle tissue. So there may be some overlap during the day where energy is needed and fat is broken down and then there is excess energy at other times of the day and muscle is built. But the net effect under this scenario would probably be a zero sum game. It's essentially what happens while eating under maintenance.there are many, many examples of people who have used excess, wearable calories (fat) to build muscle.
There actually isn't one example in existence since that's an impossible process. It's two separate processes which MIGHT occur concurrently but they are still independent.0 -
You can build muscle in deficit, of course depends on how much fat, weight you have to lose. I gained plenty of muscle while burning ton of fat in last 3 months. Thats how NFL athletes change their body composition while losing weight. Go see an experienced trainer or some one who has pro athletes as clients.0
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Why lift?
Because lifting will help you overcome your fear of bikinis.0 -
It seems like there are lot of 'truisms' around weightlifting that really aren't truisms for 99% of the population-- the whole 'can't build muscle in a deficit' is one of them. A beginner certainly can put on muscle and lose fat simultaneously. As you progress, however, you'll find it increasingly difficult to do.0
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Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. This has reaffirmed not only my desire to start lifting, but really my fitness goals in general. Very very helpful. And I'm very glad I posted my question!!!
This is perhaps one of the best questions ever asked on these forums. So much misunderstanding concerning this. Others have commented thus but I shall briefly reiterate:
On a deficit you cannot
1. Gain muscle mass (due to catabolic state)
On a deficit, you CAN.
1. Gain strength
2. Increase muscle tone
3. Maintain lean mass
4. Increase fat burning potential.
5. Create an underlying muscle base that will shine through once the rolls of fat have dissolved over them0 -
According to the book New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women, women can gain about 2.5 pounds of muscle in a month. According to many, many sites the body has the ability to convert excess protein into fat, so why is out of the realm of possibility that the body can also convert excess fat into protein (muscle)? There are many, many examples of people who have used excess, wearable calories (fat) to build muscle.
yes, but not on a 750 calorie deficit..
if that person said they were on a 750 calorie surplus then yes I would believe it….0 -
I've never heard that before, I lift some and I build muscle just because the scale doesn't move doesn't mean you aren't burning fat, take your measurements and you will see the difference.0
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I've never heard that before, I lift some and I build muscle just because the scale doesn't move doesn't mean you aren't burning fat, take your measurements and you will see the difference.
How do you build muscle, in a deficit, only lifting "some"?0 -
bump0
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Bar a few confusing posts this thread has made me want to increase my weights workouts. Thanks to those who wrote in terms I could understand :flowerforyou:0
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Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. This has reaffirmed not only my desire to start lifting, but really my fitness goals in general. Very very helpful. And I'm very glad I posted my question!!!
This is perhaps one of the best questions ever asked on these forums. So much misunderstanding concerning this. Others have commented thus but I shall briefly reiterate:
On a deficit you cannot
1. Gain muscle mass (due to catabolic state)
On a deficit, you CAN.
1. Gain strength
2. Increase muscle tone
3. Maintain lean mass
4. Increase fat burning potential.
5. Create an underlying muscle base that will shine through once the rolls of fat have dissolved over them
Let me ask you a serious question. I don't know what your credentials are but you seem pretty confident, so I wanted to get your opinion.
Is this article, and the study that it references, complete BS?
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/0 -
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. This has reaffirmed not only my desire to start lifting, but really my fitness goals in general. Very very helpful. And I'm very glad I posted my question!!!
This is perhaps one of the best questions ever asked on these forums. So much misunderstanding concerning this. Others have commented thus but I shall briefly reiterate:
On a deficit you cannot
1. Gain muscle mass (due to catabolic state)
On a deficit, you CAN.
1. Gain strength
2. Increase muscle tone
3. Maintain lean mass
4. Increase fat burning potential.
5. Create an underlying muscle base that will shine through once the rolls of fat have dissolved over them
Let me ask you a serious question. I don't know what your credentials are but you seem pretty confident, so I wanted to get your opinion.
Is this article, and the study that it references, complete BS?
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/
from the summary of the article:
In summary, some people can and do build a decent amount of muscle while they’re in a calorie deficit.
But it’s a phenomenon that’s generally limited to people who are very overweight and have never lifted weights before, or those who are returning to exercise after a layoff, where muscle memory comes into play.
Once you’ve move past the “overweight beginner” stage, building a significant amount of muscle while losing fat is a goal that becomes progressively more difficult and will normally require some kind of calorie cycling strategy if you want to see decent results.
What this article refers to is "newbie gains" in obese beginners which is possible; however, after about 4-6 months of training this will stop and it becomes harder and harder to gain muscle and eventually said trainer will have to go into calorie surplus to put on additional muscle.0 -
Bar a few confusing posts this thread has made me want to increase my weights workouts. Thanks to those who wrote in terms I could understand :flowerforyou:
+10 -
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. This has reaffirmed not only my desire to start lifting, but really my fitness goals in general. Very very helpful. And I'm very glad I posted my question!!!
This is perhaps one of the best questions ever asked on these forums. So much misunderstanding concerning this. Others have commented thus but I shall briefly reiterate:
On a deficit you cannot
1. Gain muscle mass (due to catabolic state)
On a deficit, you CAN.
1. Gain strength
2. Increase muscle tone
3. Maintain lean mass
4. Increase fat burning potential.
5. Create an underlying muscle base that will shine through once the rolls of fat have dissolved over them
Let me ask you a serious question. I don't know what your credentials are but you seem pretty confident, so I wanted to get your opinion.
Is this article, and the study that it references, complete BS?
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/
from the summary of the article:
In summary, some people can and do build a decent amount of muscle while they’re in a calorie deficit.
But it’s a phenomenon that’s generally limited to people who are very overweight and have never lifted weights before, or those who are returning to exercise after a layoff, where muscle memory comes into play.
Once you’ve move past the “overweight beginner” stage, building a significant amount of muscle while losing fat is a goal that becomes progressively more difficult and will normally require some kind of calorie cycling strategy if you want to see decent results.
What this article refers to is "newbie gains" in obese beginners which is possible; however, after about 4-6 months of training this will stop and it becomes harder and harder to gain muscle and eventually said trainer will have to go into calorie surplus to put on additional muscle.
Ok, I can understand that, but to say simply "You cannot gain muscle mass while on a calorie deficit" is simply incorrect, right?0 -
The more muscle you have the more you can eat! Yes, you can burn fat and build muscle at the same time, NPC bikini and fitness competitors do it all the time. I suggest you check out some of the amateurs of the week on bodybuilding.com. They will display not only their journey to becoming fit, but also their complete diet with vitamins/supplements as well as their workout plan. Be sure to eat enough protein to maintain muscle and try to keep your carbs in check. Don't be afraid of fats like nuts, olive oil, and avocados while still watching your caloric intake.0
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Converting ANY excess calories to fat and then that fat back to carbs for fuel is the very basis of the body's energy storage and 'retrieval' system.
It does not stand to reason it should be good at doing it the other way around.
While I still do 3.5 weights session a week generally, I've decided to not worry about them so much being on a sustained deficit for a while and look to improving my cardio - I know doing more cardio may harm my lifting/muscles a bit more, but I can improve cardio performance in a deficit while I no longer can improve lifting performance (the first month being at a deficit my strength DID increase a good chunk despite lifting not being 'new' while my weight went down - but it's since petered out.)
Hopefully I can fairly quickly regain strength when on a 'bulk' and at that point tone down the cardio.0 -
Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.
I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.
But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.
How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.0 -
Notice that on the comparisons it says "fat free mass". That would include water and glycogen. Just someone taking up intense training alone after/either not training at all would increase their "fat free mass" with glycogen/water.Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses. This has reaffirmed not only my desire to start lifting, but really my fitness goals in general. Very very helpful. And I'm very glad I posted my question!!!
This is perhaps one of the best questions ever asked on these forums. So much misunderstanding concerning this. Others have commented thus but I shall briefly reiterate:
On a deficit you cannot
1. Gain muscle mass (due to catabolic state)
On a deficit, you CAN.
1. Gain strength
2. Increase muscle tone
3. Maintain lean mass
4. Increase fat burning potential.
5. Create an underlying muscle base that will shine through once the rolls of fat have dissolved over them
Let me ask you a serious question. I don't know what your credentials are but you seem pretty confident, so I wanted to get your opinion.
Is this article, and the study that it references, complete BS?
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/
What's not mentioned in the study was the history of the men. Were they former athletes? Were they new to lifting? Were they extremely obese?
While there are some exceptions to building muscle in a calorie deficit, building muscle is an anabolic process. Calorie deficit is a catabolic process. The 2 don't run simutaneously with great success.
I find Finn much more tolerable than other PT's because he at least looks at science based evidence. I do believe he overlooked at the term of fat free mass on this study and just concluded that all the weight gain was just pure lean muscle.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
- Full-body weight workouts, twice a week. Focus on the major compound lifts (squat, dead lift, bench press, overhead press, chin-ups, dips - add some curls at the end if you want)Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.
I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.
But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.
How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.
- Conditioning work in-between. Not just steady state "aerobic" but also HIIT/sprints/etc
- Make sure you're consistently getting enough daily protein (1gram per pound of lean body mass)
- Eat a moderate calorie surplus in the 36 hours surrounding your weight workouts
- Eat at a slight calorie deficit the rest of the time0 -
- Full-body weight workouts, twice a week. Focus on the major compound lifts (squat, dead lift, bench press, overhead press, chin-ups, dips - add some curls at the end if you want)Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.
I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.
But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.
How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.
- Conditioning work in-between. Not just steady state "aerobic" but also HIIT/sprints/etc
- Make sure you're consistently getting enough daily protein (1gram per pound of lean body mass)
- Eat a moderate calorie surplus in the 36 hours surrounding your weight workouts
- Eat at a slight calorie deficit the rest of the time
Thank you dude, that is very helpful. So if I am going to work out on a Monday night at 8 PM, I should be at a moderate surplus for say all day Monday and eat a nice big breakfast on Tuesday? Or be at a surplus for the entire day Tuesday as well?0 -
And how often should I do sit ups, planks, crunches, leg lifts etc? I see a lot of different opinions on the internet about the frequency of ab workouts.0
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When you eat at a deficit, you lose weight. This includes body fat and muscle. When you lift, you keep the muscle loss to a minimum.
This is all you need to know about your question.0 -
I would say starting eating a surplus mid-day Monday through Tuesday evening. You want some extra calories in the hours leading up to your workout to fuel your training, and in the 24 hours after to maximize recovery.Thank you dude, that is very helpful. So if I am going to work out on a Monday night at 8 PM, I should be at a moderate surplus for say all day Monday and eat a nice big breakfast on Tuesday? Or be at a surplus for the entire day Tuesday as well?
Ab muscles respond to training stimulus in the same way as other muscles. Not much point in working them more than every 72 hours or so.And how often should I do sit ups, planks, crunches, leg lifts etc? I see a lot of different opinions on the internet about the frequency of ab workouts.
And frankly, just because you want to lose fat in your mid-section doesn't mean you need to be doing a bunch of ab work, that's not really the way it works (spot-reduction is a myth).
The compound lifts I mentioned above will all hit your abs to varying degrees. The only ab-specific exercise I do is a few sets of ab-wheel rollouts at the end of my weight workouts.0 -
I would say starting eating a surplus mid-day Monday through Tuesday evening. You want some extra calories in the hours leading up to your workout to fuel your training, and in the 24 hours after to maximize recovery.Thank you dude, that is very helpful. So if I am going to work out on a Monday night at 8 PM, I should be at a moderate surplus for say all day Monday and eat a nice big breakfast on Tuesday? Or be at a surplus for the entire day Tuesday as well?
Ab muscles respond to training stimulus in the same way as other muscles. Not much point in working them more than every 72 hours or so.And how often should I do sit ups, planks, crunches, leg lifts etc? I see a lot of different opinions on the internet about the frequency of ab workouts.
And frankly, just because you want to lose fat in your mid-section doesn't mean you need to be doing a bunch of ab work, that's not really the way it works (spot-reduction is a myth).
The compound lifts I mentioned above will all hit your abs to varying degrees. The only ab-specific exercise I do is a few sets of ab-wheel rollouts at the end of my weight workouts.
Thank you man, I really appreciate it.0 -
You've got some excellent explanations, now let's go with some visual aids:
Three months of lifting eating at a very slight deficit. I technically weighed more in the "after" photo because of some water weight. I might weigh 2 actual pounds less in the second photo.
OMG YOU LOOK AMAZING - Well done - What did you do lifting wise/workout etc?0 -
You could try this technique, which does seem to work for many:How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.
http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Leangains Guide
http://rippedbody.jp/2011/10/08/leangains-intermittent-fasting-guide-how-to-do-it-by-yourself/0
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