You can't build muscle at a calorie deficit? Why lift??

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  • The_1_Who_Knocks
    The_1_Who_Knocks Posts: 343 Member
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    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.
    You could try this technique, which does seem to work for many:
    http://www.leangains.com/search/label/Leangains Guide
    http://rippedbody.jp/2011/10/08/leangains-intermittent-fasting-guide-how-to-do-it-by-yourself/

    Thank you, I will check out.
  • archaichoney
    archaichoney Posts: 132 Member
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    Noob gains.
  • nmncare
    nmncare Posts: 168 Member
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    - for one thing, its a big part of being "all around fit" as you state your goal to be

    - you can make considerable strength gains without putting on actual mass as your body learns to recruit the muscle you have and make neurological adaptations

    - you preserve the muscle mass you have. muscle is a use it or lose it kind of thing. think of muscle as a very expensive commodity for your body to maintain...in a deficit of energy (calories) if you are not recruiting use of that muscle, there is really no reason for your body to hold onto that very expensive commodity. it thus becomes more efficient to burn off that lean mass in order to better cope with that deficit of energy. Using those muscles (weight training/strength training/resistance training) helps preserve that mass and maximizes fat loss. In the absence of resistance training you will lose a great deal of muscle mass along with the fat.

    - when you preserve that muscle mass and shed fat, you get "toned". you have to have muscle to look "toned"...so if you're burning up a bunch of lean mass while you diet, you're not really going to have that "toned" look...because you will be lacking in muscle mass.

    - It promotes fat-free body mass with decreasing sarcopenia.

    - It increases bone density which in turn reduces your risk of osteoporosis.

    - It Increases the strength of connective tissue, muscles, and tendons. This leads to improved motor performance and decreased injury risk.

    - It burns more calories at rest as your body repairs what has been broken down in the training process

    - It improves your quality of life as you gaining body confidence. Strength training will not only make you strong, but will also help with managing your weight.

    This is brilliant.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
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    Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.

    I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.

    But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.

    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.

    I am going to go against the grain of what the other poster recommened..

    I would recommend a heavy lifting program built around compounds as well. I would also recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting, or looking at strong lifts 5x5...

    For a sample program, I would consider something like..

    Monday - chest/arms
    Tuesday - cardio (HIIT/or steady state)
    Wens - legs
    thurs - cardio/abs
    Friday - back/shoulders
    Saturday - cardio/abs/active rest/whatever
    sunday - rest... < you should have at least one, one hundred percent rest day..

    after say three to six months you could back off cardio and transition to an upper/lower split and say one day of cardio...

    I would also suggest eating in a calorie deficit of about 500 per day to burn off the rest of the body fat...once you get to sub 12% body fat, you can do a bulk cycle to add more muscle...

    You should also set your macros to 40% protein/30% carbs/30% fats..

    that is just my two cents...
  • The_1_Who_Knocks
    The_1_Who_Knocks Posts: 343 Member
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    Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.

    I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.

    But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.

    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.

    I am going to go against the grain of what the other poster recommened..

    I would recommend a heavy lifting program built around compounds as well. I would also recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting, or looking at strong lifts 5x5...

    For a sample program, I would consider something like..

    Monday - chest/arms
    Tuesday - cardio (HIIT/or steady state)
    Wens - legs
    thurs - cardio/abs
    Friday - back/shoulders
    Saturday - cardio/abs/active rest/whatever
    sunday - rest... < you should have at least one, one hundred percent rest day..

    after say three to six months you could back off cardio and transition to an upper/lower split and say one day of cardio...

    I would also suggest eating in a calorie deficit of about 500 per day to burn off the rest of the body fat...once you get to sub 12% body fat, you can do a bulk cycle to add more muscle...

    You should also set your macros to 40% protein/30% carbs/30% fats..

    that is just my two cents...

    Thank you, all that is very helpful. I kind of like your idea of burning off the rest of the fat first and then starting to rebuild the bulk. I'm not looking to be real big anyway, and I might find if I am very toned that I am happy without adding much bulk at all.
  • LaLaLovely76
    LaLaLovely76 Posts: 73 Member
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    People are silly. I lift and have lost a butt load of weight.

    Two things (simplified..don't want haters to tell me i'm wrong, blah blah):

    1) if you want to lose fat then you need to build muscle to help burn more calories when doing the least amount of work. I.E. The more muscle you have, the easier it will become.

    2) if you want to lose weight and just diet, then you will lose both fat and muscle mass which would lead to flabby skin (e.g. bat wings) if you don't have at least some weight training involved.

    Lifting is just as important as cardio but will help expedite the fat loss process. You aren't going to look like the hulk by the end of it unless you really want to get there, but you will be nice and toned.


    Great info...Thanks for sharing...I'm in my early stages of weight loss and I know I need to include weight training in my regimen because I DO NOT want to have bat wings!!! :)
  • yo_andi
    yo_andi Posts: 2,178 Member
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    You should lift so you maintain the muscle mass you have, and believe me, you'll like the way you look as you're losing fat much better than with just dieting and cardio. Good luck!
  • timbrom
    timbrom Posts: 303 Member
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    Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.

    I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.

    But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.

    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.

    I am going to go against the grain of what the other poster recommened..

    I would recommend a heavy lifting program built around compounds as well. I would also recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting, or looking at strong lifts 5x5...

    For a sample program, I would consider something like..

    Monday - chest/arms
    Tuesday - cardio (HIIT/or steady state)
    Wens - legs
    thurs - cardio/abs
    Friday - back/shoulders
    Saturday - cardio/abs/active rest/whatever
    sunday - rest... < you should have at least one, one hundred percent rest day..

    after say three to six months you could back off cardio and transition to an upper/lower split and say one day of cardio...

    I would also suggest eating in a calorie deficit of about 500 per day to burn off the rest of the body fat...once you get to sub 12% body fat, you can do a bulk cycle to add more muscle...

    You should also set your macros to 40% protein/30% carbs/30% fats..

    that is just my two cents...

    ..... What?

    You recommend reading Starting Strength, NROLFW or Stronglifts, all of which are solid programs.

    Then you recommend a split routine? WTF? Have _you_ read those resources? Because you clearly haven't.

    You are basically telling people to look at those excellent resources, and then completely ignore them. I do not understand.
  • mhamirani
    mhamirani Posts: 7 Member
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    You might want to plug in your numbers in IIFYM calculator to see what your body and goals should actually be. MFP doesn't necessarily take all things into consideration when producing your goals for you. You, simply said, don't want to put your body in starvation mode (research it) slows down your thyroid and metabolism (research that)

    http://iifym.com/iifym-calculator/
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
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    Note that the amount of calories muscle burns just sitting there compared to fat is minimal.
    You are talking maybe 2 cal/day for a lb of fat and 6 cal/day for a lb of muscle.
    So losing 100lb of fat and putting on 25lb of muscle would see you burning the same.

    And that 25lb of muscle would let you, say, have an extra snack size mars bar a day over not having it. Of course, 25lb of extra muscle is a SIGNIFCANT amount and will take some time to put on for must people, presuming not juicing.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
    Options
    Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.

    I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.

    But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.

    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.

    I am going to go against the grain of what the other poster recommened..

    I would recommend a heavy lifting program built around compounds as well. I would also recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting, or looking at strong lifts 5x5...

    For a sample program, I would consider something like..

    Monday - chest/arms
    Tuesday - cardio (HIIT/or steady state)
    Wens - legs
    thurs - cardio/abs
    Friday - back/shoulders
    Saturday - cardio/abs/active rest/whatever
    sunday - rest... < you should have at least one, one hundred percent rest day..

    after say three to six months you could back off cardio and transition to an upper/lower split and say one day of cardio...

    I would also suggest eating in a calorie deficit of about 500 per day to burn off the rest of the body fat...once you get to sub 12% body fat, you can do a bulk cycle to add more muscle...

    You should also set your macros to 40% protein/30% carbs/30% fats..

    that is just my two cents...

    ..... What?

    You recommend reading Starting Strength, NROLFW or Stronglifts, all of which are solid programs.

    Then you recommend a split routine? WTF? Have _you_ read those resources? Because you clearly haven't.

    You are basically telling people to look at those excellent resources, and then completely ignore them. I do not understand.

    I clearly said it was my personal opinion ....so feel free to pick it apart...

    yes, I have read starting strength.
  • thekyleo
    thekyleo Posts: 632 Member
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    in
  • yo_andi
    yo_andi Posts: 2,178 Member
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    Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.

    I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.

    But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.

    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.


    I would recommend a heavy lifting program built around compounds as well. I would also recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting, or looking at strong lifts 5x5...

    For a sample program, I would consider something like..

    Monday - chest/arms
    Tuesday - cardio (HIIT/or steady state)
    Wens - legs
    thurs - cardio/abs
    Friday - back/shoulders
    Saturday - cardio/abs/active rest/whatever
    sunday - rest... < you should have at least one, one hundred percent rest day..

    after say three to six months you could back off cardio and transition to an upper/lower split and say one day of cardio...

    Have you even read SS or SL 5x5? You can't reference one of those and then recommend a split routine... unless you were just recommending those two programs for the form advice? :noway:
  • christian_finn
    christian_finn Posts: 12
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    Notice that on the comparisons it says "fat free mass". That would include water and glycogen. Just someone taking up intense training alone after/either not training at all would increase their "fat free mass" with glycogen/water.
    What's not mentioned in the study was the history of the men. Were they former athletes? Were they new to lifting? Were they extremely obese?
    While there are some exceptions to building muscle in a calorie deficit, building muscle is an anabolic process. Calorie deficit is a catabolic process. The 2 don't run simutaneously with great success.
    I find Finn much more tolerable than other PT's because he at least looks at science based evidence. I do believe he overlooked at the term of fat free mass on this study and just concluded that all the weight gain was just pure lean muscle.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    Notice that on the comparisons it says "fat free mass". That would include water and glycogen. Just someone taking up intense training alone after/either not training at all would increase their "fat free mass" with glycogen/water.

    ** Someone who is in an energy deficit is not going to end up with substantially greater glycogen/water levels after 14 weeks of diet and exercise. Cortisol-mediated changes in water retention may explain a small percentage of the changes in fat-free mass, but not all of them.

    What's not mentioned in the study was the history of the men. Were they former athletes? Were they new to lifting?

    ** They were overweight beginners. This was mentioned in the article.

    Were they extremely obese?

    ** The average body fat percentage of everyone taking part in the study was also shown in the article.

    I find Finn much more tolerable than other PT's because he at least looks at science based evidence. I do believe he overlooked at the term of fat free mass on this study and just concluded that all the weight gain was just pure lean muscle.

    ** I didn't conclude that all the weight gain was just "pure lean muscle". I also talked about:

    1. Cortisol-mediated changes in water retention.
    2. The weaknesses of the methods used to track changes in body composition.
    3. The possibility that one or more outliers (high responders in terms of gains in muscle mass) may have had a disproportionate influence on the results of the study.

    Christian
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
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    Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.

    I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.

    But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.

    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.


    I would recommend a heavy lifting program built around compounds as well. I would also recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting, or looking at strong lifts 5x5...

    For a sample program, I would consider something like..

    Monday - chest/arms
    Tuesday - cardio (HIIT/or steady state)
    Wens - legs
    thurs - cardio/abs
    Friday - back/shoulders
    Saturday - cardio/abs/active rest/whatever
    sunday - rest... < you should have at least one, one hundred percent rest day..

    after say three to six months you could back off cardio and transition to an upper/lower split and say one day of cardio...

    Have you even read SS or SL 5x5? You can't reference one of those and then recommend a split routine... unless you were just recommending those two programs for the form advice? :noway:

    please feel free to explain your alternate suggestion then..

    I may have not worded what I was saying correctly ..as I meant check out these for resources and here is a pretty common routine that you can build compound movements around...

    so my apologies for offending your sensibilities....rollz eyez...
  • 4ever420
    4ever420 Posts: 4,088 Member
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    So why do people keep saying I should be lifting weights at this stage in my weight loss journey? If I can't build muscle eating at a deficit, then why bother?

    - for one thing, its a big part of being "all around fit" as you state your goal to be

    - you can make considerable strength gains without putting on actual mass as your body learns to recruit the muscle you have and make neurological adaptations

    - you preserve the muscle mass you have. muscle is a use it or lose it kind of thing. think of muscle as a very expensive commodity for your body to maintain...in a deficit of energy (calories) if you are not recruiting use of that muscle, there is really no reason for your body to hold onto that very expensive commodity. it thus becomes more efficient to burn off that lean mass in order to better cope with that deficit of energy. Using those muscles (weight training/strength training/resistance training) helps preserve that mass and maximizes fat loss. In the absence of resistance training you will lose a great deal of muscle mass along with the fat.

    - when you preserve that muscle mass and shed fat, you get "toned". you have to have muscle to look "toned"...so if you're burning up a bunch of lean mass while you diet, you're not really going to have that "toned" look...because you will be lacking in muscle mass.

    - It promotes fat-free body mass with decreasing sarcopenia.

    - It increases bone density which in turn reduces your risk of osteoporosis.

    - It Increases the strength of connective tissue, muscles, and tendons. This leads to improved motor performance and decreased injury risk.

    - It burns more calories at rest as your body repairs what has been broken down in the training process

    - It improves your quality of life as you gaining body confidence. Strength training will not only make you strong, but will also help with managing your weight.

    Sorry to highjack this thread but I have a question to add. So you're saying by using muscles, the body is less likely to use them for energy. My question is, do I absolutely need to be doing a heavy lifting program right now or will my Jillian Michaels 30 Day Shred be effective as well since there is a lot of strength training built in? I don't have access to a lot of equipment right now so am just using 8lb dumbells. Will I still benefit from this?
  • Kimsoontobe
    Kimsoontobe Posts: 110 Member
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    Ok, I am just going to ask for a recommendation here.

    I used to be very fat, 5'11 and 274 pounds. Now I am 186 pounds...no longer fat.

    But...I still have I estimate about 10-12 pounds of belly I want to lose. You can't tell it when I have a shirt on but I want to not be able to tell when my shirt is off lol. I think I could continue my calorie deficit and cardio and ab workouts and get that done, but I want to be building some more muscle in my upper body and I'd like to rebuild my flat *kitten* too.

    How should I cycle my calories and my workouts to try and get both done at the same time? Any knowledgeable guidance is appreciated.


    I would recommend a heavy lifting program built around compounds as well. I would also recommend picking up a copy of starting strength and/or new rules of lifting, or looking at strong lifts 5x5...

    For a sample program, I would consider something like..

    Monday - chest/arms
    Tuesday - cardio (HIIT/or steady state)
    Wens - legs
    thurs - cardio/abs
    Friday - back/shoulders
    Saturday - cardio/abs/active rest/whatever
    sunday - rest... < you should have at least one, one hundred percent rest day..

    after say three to six months you could back off cardio and transition to an upper/lower split and say one day of cardio...

    Have you even read SS or SL 5x5? You can't reference one of those and then recommend a split routine... unless you were just recommending those two programs for the form advice? :noway:

    please feel free to explain your alternate suggestion then..

    I may have not worded what I was saying correctly ..as I meant check out these for resources and here is a pretty common routine that you can build compound movements around...

    so my apologies for offending your sensibilities....rollz eyez...
    Lol
  • MissesForrester
    MissesForrester Posts: 66 Member
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    BUMP
  • _rachel_k
    _rachel_k Posts: 243 Member
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    I haven't read through all the comments so excuse me if I have asked something else that is on a previous comment.

    How do you REALLY know if you're eating at a deficit and how much more you should eat? I was basing my information on BMR and TDEE calculators (the average of multiple sites) and it said I need 1900 (TDEE - 20%) and I lost no weight in 8 weeks of T25.

    My bf (who is in FAR better shape than me and used to wrestle in high school and used to be super buff in his early 20's) also thinks that I'm being fooled into thinking that by eating more, my fat loss and muscle gain will benefit, even after switching from T25 to Arnold Schwarzenegger's new encyclopedia of modern bodybuilding (in a week and a half I lost 5 lbs). I haven't been logging this week (I forgot to make a recipe for my chicken pot pie so I have NO clue how much I'm eating) but if I were to guess.... 1800 minimum.
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
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    How do you REALLY know if you're eating at a deficit and how much more you should eat? I was basing my information on BMR and TDEE calculators (the average of multiple sites) and it said I need 1900 (TDEE - 20%) and I lost no weight in 8 weeks of T25.

    The scales, in the long term. Specifically the trend they show, rather than individual figures.
    I like the app 'libre' which does all sorts of fancy averaging to give you a truer picture taking out daily fluctuations and so on. (Only been using it for a week, however.) It even shows you the sort of deficit you are REALLY on based on the trend.

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