Starvation Mode - Adaptive Thermogenesis and Weight Loss

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Replies

  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    Holy Science Batman. I love this stuff.

    psulemon :wink:


    How is it that you've just found this thread? :laugh:

    I know.. I need to hang my head in shame... my post whoring skillz as lacking..
  • pcotter54
    pcotter54 Posts: 707 Member
    Wow, I know I'm late to the party, but I'll add my thanks for this lucid and interesting series of posts.
  • JonnyQwest
    JonnyQwest Posts: 174 Member
    BUMP!!!!
  • johnthomasmoore
    johnthomasmoore Posts: 59 Member
    Bump!!!! Thanks for sharing this!
  • Derp_Diggler
    Derp_Diggler Posts: 1,456 Member
    Have any studies been done to determine whether adaptive thermogenesis is greater in people who lose more LBM than people who lose predominantly fat? If muscle uses more energy than fat and one loses more muscle than fat wouldn't that contribute to the 10 to 15% discrepancy in TDEE?
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    Have any studies been done to determine whether adaptive thermogenesis is greater in people who lose more LBM than people who lose predominantly fat? If muscle uses more energy than fat and one loses more muscle than fat wouldn't that contribute to the 10 to 15% discrepancy in TDEE?

    Models show that LBM calorie use is somewhere between 10-20 cals/kg/day at BMR. The discrepancy in TDEE goes beyond the part relative to LBM loss. It's related to changes in hormonal and the relevant neuro and metabolic downstream functions.
  • Derp_Diggler
    Derp_Diggler Posts: 1,456 Member
    Have any studies been done to determine whether adaptive thermogenesis is greater in people who lose more LBM than people who lose predominantly fat? If muscle uses more energy than fat and one loses more muscle than fat wouldn't that contribute to the 10 to 15% discrepancy in TDEE?

    Models show that LBM calorie use is somewhere between 10-20 cals/kg/day at BMR. The discrepancy in TDEE goes beyond the part relative to LBM loss. It's related to changes in hormonal and the relevant neuro and metabolic downstream functions.

    Thank you.
  • zenhiker2014
    zenhiker2014 Posts: 84 Member
    Posting to say thanks for doing the research and presenting it in such a clear and thoughtful way (and to get it on my topics list for future reference). Best discussion of this issue that I've seen to date.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    “Maintenance of a 10% or greater reduction in body weight in lean or obese individuals is accompanied by an approximate 20%-25% decline in 24-hour energy expenditure. This decrease in weight maintenance calories is 10–15% below what is predicted solely on the basis of alterations in fat and lean mass. Thus, a formerly obese individual will require ~300–400 fewer calories per day to maintain the same body weight and physical activity level as a never-obese individual of the same body weight and composition. Studies of individuals successful at sustaining weight loss indicate that reduced weight maintenance requires long-term lifestyle alterations. The necessity for these long-term changes is consistent with the observation that the reduction in twenty four hour energy expenditure (TEE) persists in subjects who have sustained weight loss for extended periods of time (6 months – 7 years) in circumstances of enforced caloric restriction in the biosphere 2 project, bariatric surgery and lifestyle modification.”

    Wait, what? Repeat that?

    Whether you go and live in a cave, get surgery or just change eating habits that 10% weight loss results in lower energy needs for 6 months to 7 years



    Great post OP, I seen it today as it's been resurrected in a link, in another thread.

    I haven't seen the study you quoted, only read that small part but I think you've got the wrong idea from the findings? (Like I say, I've only read the part you quoted so forgive me if your conclusion comes from the study, as a whole, and not the part you quoted). From the quote, I think the drop in metabolism comes from people who have used a 10% deficit from 6 months - 7 years - not that people who have used the deficit suffer a 6 month - 7 year drop.

    That's how it reads to me. I have also noticed, since bulking, that the amount of calories you need to be in surplus creeps up, pretty quickly. And from other threads, other people see this upward trend pretty quickly too.

    Hopefully that's the case anyway as my cut is coming up soon and I'll be hoping to drop the fat I've gained pretty quickly. So, from my understanding, if I keep my cutting periods below 6 months, I should suffer little, to no, ill effects metabolism wise.

    Thanks for posting though, it totally helps to make sense of the fact that it gets harder and harder to drop the fat if you get into the way of yo-yo dieting, which I seemed to have before discovering MFP.
  • Slinky_BraveHeartBunsOfSteel
    Slinky_BraveHeartBunsOfSteel Posts: 10,910 Member
    Saving for later:)
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    “Maintenance of a 10% or greater reduction in body weight in lean or obese individuals is accompanied by an approximate 20%-25% decline in 24-hour energy expenditure. This decrease in weight maintenance calories is 10–15% below what is predicted solely on the basis of alterations in fat and lean mass. Thus, a formerly obese individual will require ~300–400 fewer calories per day to maintain the same body weight and physical activity level as a never-obese individual of the same body weight and composition. Studies of individuals successful at sustaining weight loss indicate that reduced weight maintenance requires long-term lifestyle alterations. The necessity for these long-term changes is consistent with the observation that the reduction in twenty four hour energy expenditure (TEE) persists in subjects who have sustained weight loss for extended periods of time (6 months – 7 years) in circumstances of enforced caloric restriction in the biosphere 2 project, bariatric surgery and lifestyle modification.”

    Wait, what? Repeat that?

    Whether you go and live in a cave, get surgery or just change eating habits that 10% weight loss results in lower energy needs for 6 months to 7 years



    Great post OP, I seen it today as it's been resurrected in a link, in another thread.

    I haven't seen the study you quoted, only read that small part but I think you've got the wrong idea from the findings? (Like I say, I've only read the part you quoted so forgive me if your conclusion comes from the study, as a whole, and not the part you quoted). From the quote, I think the drop in metabolism comes from people who have used a 10% deficit from 6 months - 7 years - not that people who have used the deficit suffer a 6 month - 7 year drop.

    That's how it reads to me. I have also noticed, since bulking, that the amount of calories you need to be in surplus creeps up, pretty quickly. And from other threads, other people see this upward trend pretty quickly too.

    Hopefully that's the case anyway as my cut is coming up soon and I'll be hoping to drop the fat I've gained pretty quickly. So, from my understanding, if I keep my cutting periods below 6 months, I should suffer little, to no, ill effects metabolism wise.

    Thanks for posting though, it totally helps to make sense of the fact that it gets harder and harder to drop the fat if you get into the way of yo-yo dieting, which I seemed to have before discovering MFP.

    Sorry, the researcher states it's the reduction in TDEE that persist for that period. Consider this biological process - as you loss weight processes are set up to maintain homeostasis and slow down that weightloss, they overshoot a bit and remain in effect for a while as conservation measurements. Making cuts smaller, keeping cuts short and being active seem to reduce the effect.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    Haha.....I've looked at it again and again and I'm still reading it the same. Guess I'll need to have a look at the whole study, at some point, to get it.

    Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Haha.....I've looked at it again and again and I'm still reading it the same. Guess I'll need to have a look at the whole study, at some point, to get it.

    Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

    This may help too. Another study.

    Here they obtained the 15% weight loss in 3 months, with the eating goal to accomplish that prior.

    The next 3 months was eating at measured TDEE.

    And that newly measured TDEE was compared to personalized formula prior to losing weight and after losing it. Shows how much lower their TDEE was than it was for same amount of LBM.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

    The call it metabolic efficiency.

    Here's another study where they did the same thing, but more discussion of the why the body does that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_cmltmQ6A
  • malimisko
    malimisko Posts: 17 Member
    Evgeni - great post, I am still learning about weight loss.

    Don't know if starvation mode affects everyone the same, six months ago I was 370lb, with 46% body fat came down to 296 lb with 35% body fat. Also I went from pants size 44 to 36. Most of this was done by eating around 1000-1500 calorie diet (very low carb, mostly veggies, salad and meat) and cardio+weight exercise. When I plateau then I do some intermittent fasting and weight just keeps coming down.

    I know that I am supposed to eat only 500 calorie deficit, which would be 2000 or 2500 but was willing to take risk since danger of obesity is as bad as dangers of rapid weight loss. I am interested if anyone else has experienced side effects mentioned, don't know what my testosterone is, but I assume it's still acceptable since everything works so far.

    So question is how do you assess yourself if you hit adaptive thermogenesis or starvation - what to do ? What about other people that have successfully lost lots of weight in short time - if you had issues mentioned what is there to do to overcome it?
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Evgeni - great post, I am still learning about weight loss.

    Don't know if starvation mode affects everyone the same, six months ago I was 370lb, with 46% body fat came down to 296 lb with 35% body fat. Also I went from pants size 44 to 36. Most of this was done by eating around 1000-1500 calorie diet (very low carb, mostly veggies, salad and meat) and cardio+weight exercise. When I plateau then I do some intermittent fasting and weight just keeps coming down.

    I know that I am supposed to eat only 500 calorie deficit, which would be 2000 or 2500 but was willing to take risk since danger of obesity is as bad as dangers of rapid weight loss. I am interested if anyone else has experienced side effects mentioned, don't know what my testosterone is, but I assume it's still acceptable since everything works so far.

    So question is how do you assess yourself if you hit adaptive thermogenesis or starvation - what to do ? What about other people that have successfully lost lots of weight in short time - if you had issues mentioned what is there to do to overcome it?

    Read the post right above yours for what to do about it.

    So are you losing about 4 lbs weekly then - because the math you mention would indicate you should be around that.
    If you aren't - you've already done it.

    You might do the math for down the road - because where exactly do you plan to go eating that low, when the weight loss stops earlier than goal weight?
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    Evgeni - great post, I am still learning about weight loss.

    Don't know if starvation mode affects everyone the same, six months ago I was 370lb, with 46% body fat came down to 296 lb with 35% body fat. Also I went from pants size 44 to 36. Most of this was done by eating around 1000-1500 calorie diet (very low carb, mostly veggies, salad and meat) and cardio+weight exercise. When I plateau then I do some intermittent fasting and weight just keeps coming down.

    I know that I am supposed to eat only 500 calorie deficit, which would be 2000 or 2500 but was willing to take risk since danger of obesity is as bad as dangers of rapid weight loss. I am interested if anyone else has experienced side effects mentioned, don't know what my testosterone is, but I assume it's still acceptable since everything works so far.

    So question is how do you assess yourself if you hit adaptive thermogenesis or starvation - what to do ? What about other people that have successfully lost lots of weight in short time - if you had issues mentioned what is there to do to overcome it?

    Losing quickly does make sense in some cases. While Test-levels might be affected - my concern, hormone wise is more towards the thyroid t3 and t4 hormones which are down regulated and impact metabolism of protein, fats and carbs.

    What to do? Take breaks and go to maintenance every once in a while. Exercise and "build" LBM (difficult in a cut but possible to at least maintain) it compensates somewhat. Assure protein consumption remains higher. Supplement with vitamins (are you getting enough iodine?) and omega3. I'm not generally a fan of vitamin supplementation but at a large cut one is more likely to need them.

    See a doc, long term large cuts should include preventive tracking of blood markers...
  • malimisko
    malimisko Posts: 17 Member
    Thanks Evgeni

    I will request thyroid t3 checked on my next visit to the doctor. Also I think stabilizing for a month.
  • mycupyourcake
    mycupyourcake Posts: 279 Member
    Evgeni - great post, I am still learning about weight loss.

    Don't know if starvation mode affects everyone the same, six months ago I was 370lb, with 46% body fat came down to 296 lb with 35% body fat. Also I went from pants size 44 to 36. Most of this was done by eating around 1000-1500 calorie diet (very low carb, mostly veggies, salad and meat) and cardio+weight exercise. When I plateau then I do some intermittent fasting and weight just keeps coming down.

    I know that I am supposed to eat only 500 calorie deficit, which would be 2000 or 2500 but was willing to take risk since danger of obesity is as bad as dangers of rapid weight loss. I am interested if anyone else has experienced side effects mentioned, don't know what my testosterone is, but I assume it's still acceptable since everything works so far.

    So question is how do you assess yourself if you hit adaptive thermogenesis or starvation - what to do ? What about other people that have successfully lost lots of weight in short time - if you had issues mentioned what is there to do to overcome it?

    Read the post right above yours for what to do about it.

    So are you losing about 4 lbs weekly then - because the math you mention would indicate you should be around that.
    If you aren't - you've already done it.

    You might do the math for down the road - because where exactly do you plan to go eating that low, when the weight loss stops earlier than goal weight?
    Saving for later reading. Can't wrap my head around the link right now...
  • tigerblue
    tigerblue Posts: 1,526 Member
    Haha.....I've looked at it again and again and I'm still reading it the same. Guess I'll need to have a look at the whole study, at some point, to get it.

    Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

    This may help too. Another study.

    Here they obtained the 15% weight loss in 3 months, with the eating goal to accomplish that prior.

    The next 3 months was eating at measured TDEE.

    And that newly measured TDEE was compared to personalized formula prior to losing weight and after losing it. Shows how much lower their TDEE was than it was for same amount of LBM.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

    The call it metabolic efficiency.

    Here's another study where they did the same thing, but more discussion of the why the body does that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_cmltmQ6A

    @heybales-I read your blog. Would you say the MFP method is basically the same as the CREX group?
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    This may help too. Another study.

    Here they obtained the 15% weight loss in 3 months, with the eating goal to accomplish that prior.

    The next 3 months was eating at measured TDEE.

    And that newly measured TDEE was compared to personalized formula prior to losing weight and after losing it. Shows how much lower their TDEE was than it was for same amount of LBM.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

    The call it metabolic efficiency.

    Here's another study where they did the same thing, but more discussion of the why the body does that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_cmltmQ6A

    @heybales-I read your blog. Would you say the MFP method is basically the same as the CREX group?

    If you do exercise, and keep the deficit reasonable, and change it as you lose weight, I'd say yes.

    Notice these started in overweight region, many are between normal and overweight and still try to have big deficit.

    Also, even when overweight, the 2 lb loss goal can be much more than 25% of TDEE many times. And then they make it worse by assuming badly inflated numbers for exercise, eat half back or less, and make the deficit even worse.

    At that point the exercise can be helping, but they are pushing themselves closer to the LCD group.

    But MFP used as recommended, or even a tad extreme, can be successful. I've seen many that ate back the database calories - but they kept the 2lb goal loss longer than they really should have.
    But since exercise was often enough, inflated there made up for extreme deficit there, and balance was obtained.

    It's when folks do everything to stay on the "safe side" they usually ruin it. Select sedentary even if not really, select 2 lbs though 1 recommended. Over-estimate food eaten just in case. Under-estimate exercise if at all for eating back. Stay under calorie goal by 100-200, ect.

    All kinds of ways this tool can be screwed up, just like using the TDEE deficit method.
  • angelzxy321
    angelzxy321 Posts: 1,019 Member
    bumping for future reading
  • fatcity66
    fatcity66 Posts: 1,544 Member
    Thank you so much for this awesome post! I read it from beginning to end, and you made it very easy to understand.
    You have validated my "cheat days," and I only see maybe a .5 lbs gain after them now, which then comes off, plus more, rather quickly, over the next few days. I hope I am conserving my metabolism and LBM. I do have to say, my body is looking different, more defined, flatter tummy, etc, so that's a good sign. :)
  • pusheen12
    pusheen12 Posts: 192 Member
    thank you for asking: I struggle with this question myself.
  • BigT555
    BigT555 Posts: 2,067 Member
    in to read later.

    thanks for putting this all together with links to original sources OP, great post
  • avril2626
    avril2626 Posts: 699 Member
    saving for later. great information. thanks.
  • tigerblue
    tigerblue Posts: 1,526 Member
    Any research out there about multiple adaptations?

    Apparently my body is equipped to adapt to famine! Every time I find the "magic number" that results in slow weight loss, my body adapts in about 6-8 weeks. And suddenly the number of calories that will produce a loss becomes my maintenance! And I stall again. Come zombie apocalypse, come! I will be the last one standing! But I will be one hangey witch!
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    Any research out there about multiple adaptations?

    Apparently my body is equipped to adapt to famine! Every time I find the "magic number" that results in slow weight loss, my body adapts in about 6-8 weeks. And suddenly the number of calories that will produce a loss becomes my maintenance! And I stall again. Come zombie apocalypse, come! I will be the last one standing! But I will be one hangey witch!

    That slow weight loss number of a few hundred cals and the 6-8 week adaptation is possible just the reset from losing weight.
    Or are you seeing something else?

    Do you do any resistance training?
  • ihad
    ihad Posts: 7,463 Member
    Rebump.
  • Phrick
    Phrick Posts: 2,765 Member
    I know it's an old thread but in to read later.
  • tigerblue
    tigerblue Posts: 1,526 Member
    Any research out there about multiple adaptations?

    Apparently my body is equipped to adapt to famine! Every time I find the "magic number" that results in slow weight loss, my body adapts in about 6-8 weeks. And suddenly the number of calories that will produce a loss becomes my maintenance! And I stall again. Come zombie apocalypse, come! I will be the last one standing! But I will be one hangey witch!

    That slow weight loss number of a few hundred cals and the 6-8 week adaptation is possible just the reset from losing weight.
    Or are you seeing something else?

    Do you do any resistance training?

    Not sure what you mean by "just the reset from losing weight". Do you mean that perhaps I am getting that slow weight loss just because of water weight loss that usually happens when you first restrict calories? If so, could be haven't thought of that. My deficit is probably only 200-300 cals. And I usually see the loss right after a "reset" of eating at maintenance. Not because I am really trying to reset, but because of circumstances--like I automatically plan to eat at maintenance any time I travel or at holidays. (I am really only trying to lose a bit of "vanity body fat", so I don't stress about maintenance, as long as I maintain at a reasonable number!). I guess I will watch and see, as I will be travelling again next week.

    And yes I do strength training. A 30-45 minute routine with dumbells from 3lbs to 20 lbs. probably not heavy for some, but for a small un athletic gal like me, two 20's is substantial! In the winter I do 3 or 4 days a week, since I often can't get outside because of the weather. Right now in summer it is more like 2-3 days a week because I can't stand to miss an outdoors cardio day! I love my runs, rides, and swims! As it gets hotter that may change a little.

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