Bulking goal, hard gainer, and older.
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You don't even need casein. Just hit those macros.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1354685710 -
Casse in is soo expensive. 3 lb tub of cottage cheese from Sams is only 4 dollars. Blend 1 cup of that with 2 cups chocolate milk and you get 500 calories with 40 grams protein. That's my nightly shake. Do get a total t test done though.0
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- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
Who told you all this nonsense?
None of that is nonsense. All of it (except not sure what 'bulking protein' refers to) has scientific reasoning to back it up. The amount of protein which can be utilized in one meal however is unknown. Different studies have different numbers. And eating fats will slow the digestion process and allow for greater amounts to be utilized over time.
The important question is, does protein supplementation like the protocol above provide a significant benefit? Jury is out. We know for a fact that it does provide significant benefits post workout, just like intra and post carbs do provide a benefit.
- If the 25-30g in one sitting were true, people wouldn't be able to add size through intermittent fasting, 2 meals a day, 3 meals a day etc. Use your brain.
- The post workout anabolic window is MUCH greater than immediately post workout....
- You do not go into a catabolic state if you do not eat or take a casein shake before bed...
Stop wasting money on trash and eat real food.
You didn't refute a single thing. There is scientific backing to all of it and shows marginal benefits.
We are talking marginal here, not minimums
IIFYM is not an excuse for anti science and dogma. The idea that protein timing is 100% irrelevant is absolutely insane and shows true indoctrination. i follow IIFYM. I also read science. You know those studies that show increased protein synthesis when 3-5g leucine is present with 25g protein vs 25g protein with low leucine content? (yes, well documented). Pretty much obliterates your religion right there.
Stop preaching religion and think this through logically.- You do not go into a catabolic state if you do not eat or take a casein shake before bed...
Correct. You do, however, need to maintain a positive nitrogen balance to maximize protein synthesis. This is done by eating protein.
I do agree that casein is not needed or even optimal. Any whole food protein or even whey with ample fats will do the same thing before bed. Casein is waste of money generally.0 -
Seems like you have been bro scienced up badly. To break it down easy: JUST MAKE SURE IT FITS IN YOUR MACROS. It doesn't matter when the heck you have your protein.
Irony.
Pure bro science. The creators of IIFYM did NOT have this in mind when they began using the term.. When using protein, try to get most your protein from whole foods, not protein powder. It just leaves a bigger hole in your pocket.
Next we have this little gem of bro science followed by outright fiction. Whole foods vs protein, there is no difference in protein quality or effect on protein synthesis. leave your whole foods bro science behind. Hole in the pocket? Interesting....given that most protein supplements are gram for gram MUCH cheaper than any whole food substitute. Then you contradict yourself by saying you don't waste money on supps and only recommend protein and creatine. Guess what? The OP's protocol you ridiculed is just protein and components of protein.
When will you people realize that optimality is entirely different than what is required at minimum to progress?
Why attack a completely legitimate and provably optimal supplementation protocol when the OP clearly is able and willing to afford it? Maybe the difference is marginal and insignificant, but it's still at least as good, if not better, than anything else recommended.0 -
Irony.
Pure bro science. The creators of IIFYM did NOT have this in mind when they began using the term.
I don't preach IIFYM, and eating donuts and **** while bulking/cutting. I just believe in the general principle behind it. It doesn't matter when you get your protein in the day, it just matters if it hit your goals. For argument's sake I could consume all my daily protein in 1 sitting.Next we have this little gem of bro science followed by outright fiction. Whole foods vs protein, there is no difference in protein quality or effect on protein synthesis. leave your whole foods bro science behind. Hole in the pocket? Interesting....given that most protein supplements are gram for gram MUCH cheaper than any whole food substitute. Then you contradict yourself by saying you don't waste money on supps and only recommend protein and creatine. Guess what? The OP's protocol you ridiculed is just protein and components of protein.
When will you people realize that optimality is entirely different than what is required at minimum to progress?
Why attack a completely legitimate and provably optimal supplementation protocol when the OP clearly is able and willing to afford it? Maybe the difference is marginal and insignificant, but it's still at least as good, if not better, than anything else recommended.
So your telling me buying casein is cheaper than eating whole foods? Where the heck do you buy your food then lol? When I said I only recommend protein, I ment not to waste his money on casein. It's just an expensive protein, I use regular protein powder myself, but I only take it if I'm having trouble hitting my protein macros for the day. I don't consume 4-5x scoops of it daily.0 -
I love debates at the edge of what we know. Alan Aragon put out a very good paper not too long ago with Brad Schoenfeld that pretty much did away with the arguments that meal timing matter. That said, it matters to me in terms of my gym performance, and I shake like hell after a particularly heavy legs day until I eat something. The point is, it is easy to overstate arguments on meal timing and it absolutely does matter to me in terms of performance (I'll trust the science on body comp). As for the body being only able to absorb 30 grams of protein at a time I'm pretty sure that was debunked a while back and I can't imagine how that would work unless someone was eating the silly 6 meals a day nonsense. Of course, following any of these rules isn't exactly going to hurt anyone other than possibly annoy the hell out of them.
http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-53.pdf0 -
Eat enough cals
eat enough protein
do some sort of progressive resistance training that your body allows
DO THAT EVERYDAY!
The broscience bit may have an element of truth to it but until you do the above you are majoring in the minors.
^this0 -
Your getting great advice here. The only thing I'd add is try not to neglect your lower body. Those are some large muscle groups there that would maximise your gains. I have 0 knowledge of your spine condition but it looks like you've researched a lot so maybe try more research on wether you can incorporate squats and DL (maybe with bands rather than weight like someone else said) or some kind of alternative like split squats or lunges?
I also don't think it'd be that much of a struggle to shoot for a 1lb gain - it would help your carb shortage. You could just add simple things like full fat milk in your shakes or PB or whatever. Good luck with it.
ETA: I quite enjoy my casein before bed. Don't know about any of the scientific stuff but I did notice a bit of weakness when I didn't have it (could have been something else or entirely psychological ). I have it microwaved with milk so it's a nice wee hot chocolate - I don't see any harm in it and it gets the protein Grammes up
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I love debates at the edge of what we know. Alan Aragon put out a very good paper not too long ago with Brad Schoenfeld that pretty much did away with the arguments that meal timing matter. That said, it matters to me in terms of my gym performance, and I shake like hell after a particularly heavy legs day until I eat something. The point is, it is easy to overstate arguments on meal timing and it absolutely does matter to me in terms of performance (I'll trust the science on body comp). As for the body being only able to absorb 30 grams of protein at a time I'm pretty sure that was debunked a while back and I can't imagine how that would work unless someone was eating the silly 6 meals a day nonsense. Of course, following any of these rules isn't exactly going to hurt anyone other than possibly annoy the hell out of them.
http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-53.pdf
And to piggyback
http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/50 -
Protein synthesis must be triggered post workout by eating protein AND/OR Leucine: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/2/533S.full
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/51/4/928.full
Food for thought following Alan Aragon's study on milk as a perfect post workout meal: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/13/1/9
Studies show either works to trigger MTOR. Scientific though and logic suggests the two together create a larger stimulus but waiting on conclusive evidence. This right here debunks the idea that you can eat all your protein in the morning and have the same level of protein synthesis. Of course, this is pretty obvious and only the most religious IIFYM guys believe that there is zero post workout "anabolic window". the window is larger than the bro science 30 minutes though.
For guys with low daily protein (not us, so less relevant, but still interesting): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22357161
The reason we add Leucine to whey is that a typical serving of whey does not contain a possibly optimal amount of leucine to achieve the best trigger. you need 3g to 5g for that. If you are eating a steak instead, then yes, plenty of leucine in that. But its important to realize that almost all of the positive benefits of protein synthesis triggering from eating protein is actually due to eating leucine.
This is just one example. The 6 meals a day for better metabolism, etc etc, yes that is bro science. But there is very real evidence for pre, intra, and post workout supplementation...which means the statement "meal/protein timing is irrelevant" is provably false.
good stuff. This adds the missing element to the above studies with the following quote. Does having food in the system from a previous meal still allow for this leucine trigger? The study suggests 3 hours max.
"However, infusion-based studies in rats [78,79] and humans [80,81] indicate that the postprandial rise in MPS from ingesting amino acids or a protein-rich meal is more transient, returning to baseline within 3 hours despite sustained elevations in amino acid availability."
These are pretty large windows but they definitely do lead to the conclusion that someone eating IF with a workout NOT in the eating period, or eating 1 large meal in the morning or evening is NOT going to achieve maximal protein synthesis unless they are eating BCAAs every few hours.0 -
A better study with great comparison groups showing Pro+Leucine+carbs>carbs +pro>carbs
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/288/4/E645
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Protein synthesis must be triggered post workout by eating protein AND/OR Leucine: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/2/533S.full
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/51/4/928.full
Food for thought following Alan Aragon's study on milk as a perfect post workout meal: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/13/1/9
Studies show either works to trigger MTOR. Scientific though and logic suggests the two together create a larger stimulus but waiting on conclusive evidence. This right here debunks the idea that you can eat all your protein in the morning and have the same level of protein synthesis. Of course, this is pretty obvious and only the most religious IIFYM guys believe that there is zero post workout "anabolic window". the window is larger than the bro science 30 minutes though.
For guys with low daily protein (not us, so less relevant, but still interesting): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22357161
The reason we add Leucine to whey is that a typical serving of whey does not contain a possibly optimal amount of leucine to achieve the best trigger. you need 3g to 5g for that. If you are eating a steak instead, then yes, plenty of leucine in that. But its important to realize that almost all of the positive benefits of protein synthesis triggering from eating protein is actually due to eating leucine.
This is just one example. The 6 meals a day for better metabolism, etc etc, yes that is bro science. But there is very real evidence for pre, intra, and post workout supplementation...which means the statement "meal/protein timing is irrelevant" is provably false.
good stuff. This adds the missing element to the above studies with the following quote. Does having food in the system from a previous meal still allow for this leucine trigger? The study suggests 3 hours max.
"However, infusion-based studies in rats [78,79] and humans [80,81] indicate that the postprandial rise in MPS from ingesting amino acids or a protein-rich meal is more transient, returning to baseline within 3 hours despite sustained elevations in amino acid availability."
These are pretty large windows but they definitely do lead to the conclusion that someone eating IF with a workout NOT in the eating period, or eating 1 large meal in the morning or evening is NOT going to achieve maximal protein synthesis unless they are eating BCAAs every few hours.
That's what I was saying man. I'm not saying the post workout window doesn't exist... I'm just saying it's it expands beyond that immediate 30 minute window.
Personally, I follow IF but my training fall's within the fed period anyway.0 -
Here is a good read regarding protein and what can the body absorb at one time
http://www.simplyshredded.com/does-excess-protein-get-stored-as-fat.html0 -
That's what I was saying man. I'm not saying the post workout window doesn't exist... I'm just saying it's it expands beyond that immediate 30 minute window.
Personally, I follow IF but my training fall's within the fed period anyway.
My training is at the end of my fast....then I get to eat. :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile:0 -
My view regarding timing is that while there is "timing" to getting nutrients.
The people who will benefit the most from those timing windows are going to be your elite athletes or people getting ready to take the stage for a competition.
But for most regular joes out there, hitting your caloric and macro goals is far more important....0 -
My view regarding timing is that while there is "timing" to getting nutrients.
The people who will benefit the most from those timing windows are going to be your elite athletes or people getting ready to take the stage for a competition.
But for most regular joes out there, hitting your caloric and macro goals is far more important....
Agreed.0 -
- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso
-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
Lets just break this down into 1 simple sentence. You don't need to do any of that. Seems like you have been bro scienced up badly. To break it down easy: JUST MAKE SURE IT FITS IN YOUR MACROS. It doesn't matter when the heck you have your protein. You can have 50g in the morning, 100g at night. Doesn't matter as long as you hit your daily protein macros. Amino's acids as well are a waste. YOU DONT NEED CASEINE. Slow digesting protein bs, it doesn't matter.
This. Just get the cheapest protein you can find, eat it, and you'll be fine.
There is SOME science behind a lot of your bro science, but not enough to justify paying any attention to it. Accomplishing what you want to accomplish isn't hard: Eat plenty of food, eat plenty of protein, lift stuff. Anything else you've read in Men's Fitness is BS designed to sell you Caseine, "bulking protein," and other useless stuff that generally costs more than real food.
Once you're approaching the absolute pinnacle of your physical potential, you can start caring about when to eat and which types of protein to use.0 -
First, let me say thanks for the feedback. I was not intending to set off some religious war or anything. I've read plenty of Bodybuilding.com and other sites. Plenty of mens health mags and so on. I took from all that reading some basic ideas I thought were on the right track. That is how I have been doing it. I did get cleaner build and can maintain about 160lbs. I wanted to do more and was hoping for some ideas. You folks have given me some. For that thanks. To answer some questions and comments.
- Ok, I'll ditch the Caseine. I have 1 tub, only tub I ever bought. Thought it might be useful.
- I have some Dymatize Fusion 7, which is a mixed protein and not expensive.
- I have BSN Mass gainer I take in the morning to get 700 calories right away. I'm going to add milk to bump it.
- I have GNC AMP I take after workout.
- All those have the usual stacks built in, leucine included.
- I have been supplementing Creatine recently, before and after workout.
- Yes I have a hard time hitting numbers because I don't feel that hungry. So supplementing with protein shakes helps and I can afford it. Already budgeted for.
- I also eat meats, ie, steak, fish, chicken, and so on. I grill them with basic spices. So no fried stuff.
- Yes I admit it. I fell for the 6 meals/day plan. I don't like the full/bloated feeling of 1-2 meals/day. 3-4 i'm fine with.
- Yes I have had my blood tests done. Every 3 months. I am on a TRT system. I had all the usual signs and my T level was really really low. So my levels are now excellent AND it works!!! Improves in many ways.
- Had lower back problem. L5-S1 is worn. Did PT for several months. Was doing better. Had a microdiscectomy done to help alleviate nerve pressure and pain. 8 weeks later going back to doc for visit. I got hit by a tractor trailer, hard, in my Vette. Vette vs 18 wheeler. Don't try this please, it ain't a happy ending... L5-S1 is now gone. Got fused, have handful of Titanium there. Spent a year recovering in PT. Then started on P90, P90X and all that fun stuff. Fell in love with working out. I can lift it. My back gets really pissed. I do leg work, squats, lunges, thrusts, calf raises, with 25lb dumbell in each hand. Weights over my head are painful beyond 50lbs.
So I have some limitations. It's a project to see if I can get to 175lbs and clean. I hit 180+ once while recovering. You can guess where that weight went. I used P90X to kill that crap and got down to 150. I can hold 160lbs just fine. So more calories, hit your macros, more time lifting than cardio. Got that and will try not to get so hung up on the science and just lift more, progressively. :-) I'm trying Beast next month after I finish P90X3. That is all weights, drop sets, strip sets, etc... Should be fun.
I have an appointment with a Nutritionist on Friday.
Do your best, forget the rest.... lol...0 -
First, let me say thanks for the feedback. I was not intending to set off some religious war or anything. I've read plenty of Bodybuilding.com and other sites. Plenty of mens health mags and so on. I took from all that reading some basic ideas I thought were on the right track. That is how I have been doing it. I did get cleaner build and can maintain about 160lbs. I wanted to do more and was hoping for some ideas. You folks have given me some. For that thanks. To answer some questions and comments.
- Ok, I'll ditch the Caseine. I have 1 tub, only tub I ever bought. Thought it might be useful.
I don't think you need to ditch it if you already bought it. Couldn't hurt since its handy, that's your call.- I have been supplementing Creatine recently, before and after workout.
I don't think you need to take so much, especially for your bodyweight. One big spoonful a day should be plenty. Personally I followed the regimen of taking it in the mornings on days when I didn't work out, and after a workout on days when I did. 5g each day regardless. I did that when I was over 245lbs (227 now) and I saw noticeable results after a week.- Yes I have a hard time hitting numbers because I don't feel that hungry. So supplementing with protein shakes helps and I can afford it. Already budgeted for.
I'd say if you're not hungry don't eat and don't worry about it. That sounds to me like your body is saying to stop and only put in what you are comfortable with. Food is fuel, so you should eat when you're hungry and seriously don't worry about it if you just aren't. Scale back your macro targets, be more realistic.- Yes I admit it. I fell for the 6 meals/day plan. I don't like the full/bloated feeling of 1-2 meals/day. 3-4 i'm fine with.
I don't think there's anything to fall for with 6 meals a day, its fine. IF with 2 meals a day can also be fine. I think these things are personal preferences and finding out what your body responds to. I have done both, you can get results with either. Is one better than the other or more efficient somehow? Maybe, that's something you have to play with and see what is optimal for you.
Again this is just my experience, but what I've learned is you have to tailor things to yourself and discover what works best for you. There are few actual 100% correct ways of doing things, usually there are several acceptable ways to do things and one may be better for you than another. But that can and is often different than the next guy. Don't look for absolutes, be flexible and experiment.
Anyone who goes looking for "the one true way" of achieving your goals is in for some disappointment. There are always several legitimate paths. That's why you can't sweat these details, odds are you're going to take everything you're planning now and throw it out in 6 months anyway.0
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