Bulking goal, hard gainer, and older.
vms4evr
Posts: 106 Member
I'm at 162lb and aiming for 175lbs. I'm 58 years old. Male. I workout 5-6 days a week. Mostly P90X-3. I'm reducing cardio and adding more weights. Doing some of the Beast workout also. I mountain bike when I can, which isn't much lately.
So I need to add 13lbs. Goal is set to .5lb/wk. I don't think I can do 1lb/wk successfully.
I need about 168g of protein/day.
- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
That regiment means I'm always getting protein but rarely overloading. Don't forget I'm eating steak, fish, chicken, roast beef, and other foods with a lot of protein. So I'm hitting 150g of protein a day with no problem.
My fats are working out well. My carbs seem low. I'm not hitting my daily intake totals of calories like I should. ANy day I add cardio and I'm way under. Last time I tried no cardio and bulking I got stronger and got more belly fat. Was kind of upset. My history suggests that my body will fight really hard to get back to 155 once i get over 165. Unless I don't work out and eat crap, then of course, we know what happens next... lol
I take a good multivitamin regiment, pre-workout stuff to get a bit more pumped.
I use only dumbells and only just started with a bar weights. I have hardware in my lower back. So big weights and squats or deadlifts is bad. So the mainstay most builders like is a problem for me.
I'm just starting on the bulking phase. So any ideas that help would be welcome.
So I need to add 13lbs. Goal is set to .5lb/wk. I don't think I can do 1lb/wk successfully.
I need about 168g of protein/day.
- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
That regiment means I'm always getting protein but rarely overloading. Don't forget I'm eating steak, fish, chicken, roast beef, and other foods with a lot of protein. So I'm hitting 150g of protein a day with no problem.
My fats are working out well. My carbs seem low. I'm not hitting my daily intake totals of calories like I should. ANy day I add cardio and I'm way under. Last time I tried no cardio and bulking I got stronger and got more belly fat. Was kind of upset. My history suggests that my body will fight really hard to get back to 155 once i get over 165. Unless I don't work out and eat crap, then of course, we know what happens next... lol
I take a good multivitamin regiment, pre-workout stuff to get a bit more pumped.
I use only dumbells and only just started with a bar weights. I have hardware in my lower back. So big weights and squats or deadlifts is bad. So the mainstay most builders like is a problem for me.
I'm just starting on the bulking phase. So any ideas that help would be welcome.
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Replies
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that looks pretty good. the shakes might be a bit overkill, but certainly wont hurt you.
The key thing that is going to affect your muscle gain is your hormones. Have you had a full hormone panel done recently? testosterone is in normal ranges? That will affect your body composition more than anything else.0 -
Hi
I'm undergoing spinal issues at the moment, so I've picked up resistance bands instead of iron.
Looks like a lot of thought has gone into your diet. That worries me. Spend less time thinking and more time necking! Your body doesn't really care much about fast release/slow release blah blah blah. It just wants fuel.0 -
- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
Who told you all this nonsense?0 -
What exactly is 'bulking protein'? Are you referring to casein?0
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- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
Who told you all this nonsense?
None of that is nonsense. All of it (except not sure what 'bulking protein' refers to) has scientific reasoning to back it up. The amount of protein which can be utilized in one meal however is unknown. Different studies have different numbers. And eating fats will slow the digestion process and allow for greater amounts to be utilized over time.
The important question is, does protein supplementation like the protocol above provide a significant benefit? Jury is out. We know for a fact that it does provide significant benefits post workout, just like intra and post carbs do provide a benefit.0 -
I'm undergoing spinal issues at the moment, so I've picked up resistance bands instead of iron.
Yeah I used them before and after surgery. I only do occasionally now, like when traveling. They work.Looks like a lot of thought has gone into your diet. That worries me. Spend less time thinking and more time necking!
That's the point of tracking it and letting some science help me. No worries on the other part. I get all the necking I can handle :-)Your body doesn't really care much about fast release/slow release blah blah blah. It just wants fuel.
It worries me you might be spending too much time necking. Yes your body does know.0 -
What exactly is 'bulking protein'? Are you referring to casein?
Sorry. For you and Trojan_BB.
Mass Gainer. Currently using the BSN one. Have tried others. I have 4 proteins in the cupboard. About 700 calories with water. Helps me hit my carb and calorie numbers.I need about 2,400 calories/day assuming no cardio. Which do some of.
Mass Gainer. bulking.
Mixed with lots of additives. post workout.
Casein. night time food.0 -
Gotcha. I've never done a mass gainer. Good luck with your bulk.0
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- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
Who told you all this nonsense?
None of that is nonsense. All of it (except not sure what 'bulking protein' refers to) has scientific reasoning to back it up. The amount of protein which can be utilized in one meal however is unknown. Different studies have different numbers. And eating fats will slow the digestion process and allow for greater amounts to be utilized over time.
The important question is, does protein supplementation like the protocol above provide a significant benefit? Jury is out. We know for a fact that it does provide significant benefits post workout, just like intra and post carbs do provide a benefit.
Agreed on the jury being out on how much you can absorb at once. Most everything I have read says 25g or so. So I use it as a rule of thumb.
Supplementing with protein shakes helps me get that mix of carb/protein/fat easier than making lots of foods.
I'll continue to convince myself it helps, otherwise i'm out a lot of money for expensive poop... lol....0 -
This is obviously a troll LMAO , can't believe no one has caught on yet... what is the date today??
58 years old looking to bulk, getting 125g of protein from shakes EVERY DAY LMAO!0 -
No troll.
I'll be here tomorrow and the days after.
Why can't I consume 125g of protein/day. I've been doing it for 3 years now. Between shakes and food it ain't that hard.0 -
I am a similar weight as you. I bulked from 165 to 186 lbs. on 3,000-3,200 cals/day. My macros were approx. 180g Protein, 120g Fat, 300g Carbs. Getting 180g Protein isn't too bad once you get used to it (even without shakes/supplements). Make sure you are training with progressive resistance and hitting your macros and you'll gain. It really is that simple.0
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Thanks. NRBreit.
I tried setting Goal to 1lb/wk and that had me around 3000 which is hard for me to do right now. So I dropped it back to .5lb/wk.
Has anyone looked at the default split MFP picks? It goes 50/20/30 or 50/20/30. So by default it picks 50% carbs and the majority of the people on here are looking to lose weight. That confuses me. I'd think dieters need less carbs, not necessarily none but maybe 30%.
I modified mine to get fats within reason and protein to hit my body weight as grams. So roughly 160g of protein. So I now have a 40/30/30 split. The bodybuilders say 40/40/20.
I'm trying hard to get trained on hitting my numbers. I've been tracking it on here for a couple of weeks now. That's what started me here. I do most of it from my phone.0 -
Has anyone looked at the default split MFP picks? It goes 50/20/30 or 50/20/30. So by default it picks 50% carbs and the majority of the people on here are looking to lose weight. That confuses me. I'd think dieters need less carbs, not necessarily none but maybe 30%.
I modified mine to get fats within reason and protein to hit my body weight as grams. So roughly 160g of protein. So I now have a 40/30/30 split. The bodybuilders say 40/40/20.
I wouldn't worry about percentages. Set your minimums for Protein (.8g per lb. of LBM) and Fats (around .4g per lb.) and then fill the rest of your calorie target as you see fit to give you best gym performance, etc. I like a bit more fat in my diet because it opens up more food choices, but some people prefer higher carbs.0 -
- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso
-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
Lets just break this down into 1 simple sentence. You don't need to do any of that. Seems like you have been bro scienced up badly. To break it down easy: JUST MAKE SURE IT FITS IN YOUR MACROS. It doesn't matter when the heck you have your protein. You can have 50g in the morning, 100g at night. Doesn't matter as long as you hit your daily protein macros. Amino's acids as well are a waste. YOU DONT NEED CASEINE. Slow digesting protein bs, it doesn't matter.
Stop wasting your money on all those supplements, the only two supplements I recommend are protein + creatine. When using protein, try to get most your protein from whole foods, not protein powder. It just leaves a bigger hole in your pocket.0 -
- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
Who told you all this nonsense?
None of that is nonsense. All of it (except not sure what 'bulking protein' refers to) has scientific reasoning to back it up. The amount of protein which can be utilized in one meal however is unknown. Different studies have different numbers. And eating fats will slow the digestion process and allow for greater amounts to be utilized over time.
The important question is, does protein supplementation like the protocol above provide a significant benefit? Jury is out. We know for a fact that it does provide significant benefits post workout, just like intra and post carbs do provide a benefit.
- If the 25-30g in one sitting were true, people wouldn't be able to add size through intermittent fasting, 2 meals a day, 3 meals a day etc. Use your brain.
- The post workout anabolic window is MUCH greater than immediately post workout....
- You do not go into a catabolic state if you do not eat or take a casein shake before bed...
Stop wasting money on trash and eat real food.0 -
Also, if you need a weight gainer to hit 2400 calories.... you need to rethink your diet.0
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Just a couple of things- I don't know about being 58, I'm 40. But firstly I average about 120g of protein in shakes a day. 2 60g drinks usually. That plus other protein from chicken or bars meaning I'll have 80-100 in a meal. I aim for about 200g a day more or less. I also am currently doing IIFYM + IF, so 2 big meals a day. Pretty sure the 25g protein/hour thing is crap.
I agree with others that the frequency or rate doesn't matter, it's your preference. Also agree that other supplements are probably a waste, just get your macros, protein and creatine if you want it and put in the effort. Vitamins are fine of course but don't overthink any of this stuff. Bulking is the relatively easy part, just eat and lift and rest.
Also agree that your diet seems small, why is hitting 3000 hard to do?
I've never taken casein and I've added my fair share of muscle/strength. Just protein and occasionally creatine supplements.
Of course everything I state is just my own experience.0 -
Eat enough cals
eat enough protein
do some sort of progressive resistance training that your body allows
DO THAT EVERYDAY!
The broscience bit may have an element of truth to it but until you do the above you are majoring in the minors.0 -
Generally solid plan. However:
1. Timing is not relevant. Don't worry about maximum absorption rates - those are myths.
2. Meats are better than shakes if possible. Shakes are for convenience.
3. Make sure you progressively overload.
4. I'd your testosterone levels checked .. it's tough building muscle at that age.0 -
You don't even need casein. Just hit those macros.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1354685710 -
Casse in is soo expensive. 3 lb tub of cottage cheese from Sams is only 4 dollars. Blend 1 cup of that with 2 cups chocolate milk and you get 500 calories with 40 grams protein. That's my nightly shake. Do get a total t test done though.0
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- I've been told I can't process more than 25-30 grams at any one time.
- I've been told 30-60 mins post workout to consume fast absorbing protein with high contents of added aminos. 25g. So I use Iso-Whey with lots of extras.
- During the day a mixed protein with iso-whey, standard whey, etc. 25g.
- Bulking protein in the morning. 50g, loaded with aminos, mixed wheys, and about 700 calories.
- Bedtime. 25g of Caseine. Slow absorbing digesting while you sleep. Aids in catabolism and feeds your body.
That alone gives me about 125g of proteins in the form of shakes.
Who told you all this nonsense?
None of that is nonsense. All of it (except not sure what 'bulking protein' refers to) has scientific reasoning to back it up. The amount of protein which can be utilized in one meal however is unknown. Different studies have different numbers. And eating fats will slow the digestion process and allow for greater amounts to be utilized over time.
The important question is, does protein supplementation like the protocol above provide a significant benefit? Jury is out. We know for a fact that it does provide significant benefits post workout, just like intra and post carbs do provide a benefit.
- If the 25-30g in one sitting were true, people wouldn't be able to add size through intermittent fasting, 2 meals a day, 3 meals a day etc. Use your brain.
- The post workout anabolic window is MUCH greater than immediately post workout....
- You do not go into a catabolic state if you do not eat or take a casein shake before bed...
Stop wasting money on trash and eat real food.
You didn't refute a single thing. There is scientific backing to all of it and shows marginal benefits.
We are talking marginal here, not minimums
IIFYM is not an excuse for anti science and dogma. The idea that protein timing is 100% irrelevant is absolutely insane and shows true indoctrination. i follow IIFYM. I also read science. You know those studies that show increased protein synthesis when 3-5g leucine is present with 25g protein vs 25g protein with low leucine content? (yes, well documented). Pretty much obliterates your religion right there.
Stop preaching religion and think this through logically.- You do not go into a catabolic state if you do not eat or take a casein shake before bed...
Correct. You do, however, need to maintain a positive nitrogen balance to maximize protein synthesis. This is done by eating protein.
I do agree that casein is not needed or even optimal. Any whole food protein or even whey with ample fats will do the same thing before bed. Casein is waste of money generally.0 -
Seems like you have been bro scienced up badly. To break it down easy: JUST MAKE SURE IT FITS IN YOUR MACROS. It doesn't matter when the heck you have your protein.
Irony.
Pure bro science. The creators of IIFYM did NOT have this in mind when they began using the term.. When using protein, try to get most your protein from whole foods, not protein powder. It just leaves a bigger hole in your pocket.
Next we have this little gem of bro science followed by outright fiction. Whole foods vs protein, there is no difference in protein quality or effect on protein synthesis. leave your whole foods bro science behind. Hole in the pocket? Interesting....given that most protein supplements are gram for gram MUCH cheaper than any whole food substitute. Then you contradict yourself by saying you don't waste money on supps and only recommend protein and creatine. Guess what? The OP's protocol you ridiculed is just protein and components of protein.
When will you people realize that optimality is entirely different than what is required at minimum to progress?
Why attack a completely legitimate and provably optimal supplementation protocol when the OP clearly is able and willing to afford it? Maybe the difference is marginal and insignificant, but it's still at least as good, if not better, than anything else recommended.0 -
Irony.
Pure bro science. The creators of IIFYM did NOT have this in mind when they began using the term.
I don't preach IIFYM, and eating donuts and **** while bulking/cutting. I just believe in the general principle behind it. It doesn't matter when you get your protein in the day, it just matters if it hit your goals. For argument's sake I could consume all my daily protein in 1 sitting.Next we have this little gem of bro science followed by outright fiction. Whole foods vs protein, there is no difference in protein quality or effect on protein synthesis. leave your whole foods bro science behind. Hole in the pocket? Interesting....given that most protein supplements are gram for gram MUCH cheaper than any whole food substitute. Then you contradict yourself by saying you don't waste money on supps and only recommend protein and creatine. Guess what? The OP's protocol you ridiculed is just protein and components of protein.
When will you people realize that optimality is entirely different than what is required at minimum to progress?
Why attack a completely legitimate and provably optimal supplementation protocol when the OP clearly is able and willing to afford it? Maybe the difference is marginal and insignificant, but it's still at least as good, if not better, than anything else recommended.
So your telling me buying casein is cheaper than eating whole foods? Where the heck do you buy your food then lol? When I said I only recommend protein, I ment not to waste his money on casein. It's just an expensive protein, I use regular protein powder myself, but I only take it if I'm having trouble hitting my protein macros for the day. I don't consume 4-5x scoops of it daily.0 -
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I love debates at the edge of what we know. Alan Aragon put out a very good paper not too long ago with Brad Schoenfeld that pretty much did away with the arguments that meal timing matter. That said, it matters to me in terms of my gym performance, and I shake like hell after a particularly heavy legs day until I eat something. The point is, it is easy to overstate arguments on meal timing and it absolutely does matter to me in terms of performance (I'll trust the science on body comp). As for the body being only able to absorb 30 grams of protein at a time I'm pretty sure that was debunked a while back and I can't imagine how that would work unless someone was eating the silly 6 meals a day nonsense. Of course, following any of these rules isn't exactly going to hurt anyone other than possibly annoy the hell out of them.
http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-53.pdf0 -
Eat enough cals
eat enough protein
do some sort of progressive resistance training that your body allows
DO THAT EVERYDAY!
The broscience bit may have an element of truth to it but until you do the above you are majoring in the minors.
^this0 -
Your getting great advice here. The only thing I'd add is try not to neglect your lower body. Those are some large muscle groups there that would maximise your gains. I have 0 knowledge of your spine condition but it looks like you've researched a lot so maybe try more research on wether you can incorporate squats and DL (maybe with bands rather than weight like someone else said) or some kind of alternative like split squats or lunges?
I also don't think it'd be that much of a struggle to shoot for a 1lb gain - it would help your carb shortage. You could just add simple things like full fat milk in your shakes or PB or whatever. Good luck with it.
ETA: I quite enjoy my casein before bed. Don't know about any of the scientific stuff but I did notice a bit of weakness when I didn't have it (could have been something else or entirely psychological ). I have it microwaved with milk so it's a nice wee hot chocolate - I don't see any harm in it and it gets the protein Grammes up
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I love debates at the edge of what we know. Alan Aragon put out a very good paper not too long ago with Brad Schoenfeld that pretty much did away with the arguments that meal timing matter. That said, it matters to me in terms of my gym performance, and I shake like hell after a particularly heavy legs day until I eat something. The point is, it is easy to overstate arguments on meal timing and it absolutely does matter to me in terms of performance (I'll trust the science on body comp). As for the body being only able to absorb 30 grams of protein at a time I'm pretty sure that was debunked a while back and I can't imagine how that would work unless someone was eating the silly 6 meals a day nonsense. Of course, following any of these rules isn't exactly going to hurt anyone other than possibly annoy the hell out of them.
http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-53.pdf
And to piggyback
http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/50
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