"Can't build at a deficit..."

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histora
histora Posts: 287 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
So I'm not a newbie at the whole treadmill/elliptical routine, as that's how I've been increasing my endurance and losing bits of weight. I've started to incorporate weights (mostly dumbbells and bodyweight) lately, but I've noticed that I hear "you can't build muscle at a calorie deficit!" all the time and I am supremely confused at this point.

I'm 31, weigh 246lbs, want to lose another 60, have lost over 20 so far. I know it says 10lbs on my ticker, and I lost 10 lbs before i joined MFP. I typically do cardio for 30 mins, and have been increasing the intensity so that I'm short of breath and exhausted at the end.

I follow MFP's calorie plan, and generally eat within 200 cals of the goal. So if I start strength training, the conventional wisdom here seems to say I won't be able to build muscle, or that my weight loss will stop? How can that possibly be if I have soooo much more to lose? Or is this a lighter-person problem?

Any advice is appreciated, unless it is something like "cardio is stupid, don't do it." Sorry, but cardio is the way I managed to lose the first 20 and its had a world of influence on me being able to go up and down stairs without dying.

Replies

  • phatguerilla
    phatguerilla Posts: 188 Member
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    Its more difficult to build muscle on a deficit because muscles require a surplus of energy to grow larger. However many people take this to be the lost 11th commandment when its not. Especially as someone who is new to weights you will gradually add strength and even some additional muscle mass while losing weight. It is still harder to do than if you were eating at a surplus but its not impossible.
    Re weight loss stopping, some people can retain fluid when they begin lifting weights but again it should not cause your weight loss to stop forever and may increase your deficit so it might help you lose even more weight. However if your calorie deficit becomes too low then that in itself can also cause your weight loss to stall.
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
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    You may have some minor gains because you are overweight and you are new to lifting. However, the benefit is that if you have a program that involves progressive overload, you will continue to get stronger, and you will retain more muscle mass as you lose. You also will not stop losing weight just because you start lifting weights (you might see some water weight the day after lifting, especially if your muscles are sore).

    Here are my most recent progress photos, and I started lifting heavy January of last year.
    March2014sidecomparison_zps92a27a34.jpg
  • parkscs
    parkscs Posts: 1,639 Member
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    Lift and lift heavy, and make sure you're getting adequate protein. Don't worry so much about building muscle for now but concentrate on losing weight and gaining strength. You don't have to build muscle to increase your strength. I think a lot of people hear "you can't build muscle" and assume there's no point in lifting at a deficit, but lifting still allows you to retain muscle and build strength - and as a beginner with 60 pounds left to lose, it's very conceivable that you might put on a bit of muscle as well during the first month or two. In short, hit your macros/caloric deficit daily and hit the weights several times a week, and I suspect you'll be happier for it. :smile:
  • AmyRhubarb
    AmyRhubarb Posts: 6,890 Member
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    I've had my best results with fat loss while eating at a reasonable calorie deficit and doing strength/resistance work and some cardio. I have increased strength, and I can see more muscle because of the fat loss (commonly what people refer to as "toning" - lose the fat, reveal the muscle), but I'm not building muscle while eating at a deficit.

    And yes, as phatguerilla said, you may show a slight gain when starting strength training due to water retention, but over time it will drop back off. I've found my tape measure and watching how clothes fit is a better way to see my progress than going by scale numbers, too, so if you're not measuring already, start.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,167 Member
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    In general, you can't build muscle on a deficit, however, there are some exceptions. Trained people who come back after a long layoff, newbies, and people who are "overfat" can gain some. Keep in mind this amount would be small, we aren't talking about packing on size or bodybuilder status.

    Your weight loss won't stop either as long as you are maintaining a deficit. Some people will experience a minor - ie 1-2 lbs- of weight gain when starting exercise or upping intensity. This is often confused with gaining muscle but it is actually simply glycogen/water storage in muscles. It may temporarily halt weight loss but eventually the fat lose will catch up and the scale will move. Again this is dependant on being in a calorie deficit.

    Strength training has a ton of benefits including helping to preserve the muscle mass you have now. Cardio is not bad. If you like it, do it. I just don't agree with killing oneself with cardio to achieve weightloss (which is doens't sound to me like you are doing).
  • fayefayee5
    fayefayee5 Posts: 87 Member
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    Im a similar weight to you. Started at 255, Im now 224.8. I have a similar routine to you... I do 30 mins cardio 6 days a week and then i strength train 4-5 days a week. I havent noticed my weight loss stopping, I think its been helping.

    I wouldnt say Ive gained muscle (although I think I have slightly, especially in my calves), but It definitely helps redefine and tone your body, I feel sturdier and less jiggly now That I lift, so although I still have 70lbs to lose, I feel very comfortable with my body for the size that I am, and cannot wait to see how I look as more fat drops off :D
  • kaaaaylee
    kaaaaylee Posts: 398
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    When I started really lifting, I dropped a good portion of weight. I've levelled out a little and am struggling, but keep in mind that muscle burns calories so when you build it, you are burning more resting than you are now.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
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    if you are a newbie to lifting then over the first three to four months you will experience "newbie gains" and build muscle, even if in a deficit…however, after about three to four months this will stop and you will just be losing body fat. NOw, it may APPEAR that you are gaining muscle because as your body fat comes down it will expose the muscle that you had hidden under the body fat; however, this is not new muscle, it is just existing muscle.

    Think of it this way, can you build a house AND tear it down at the same time? Of course not….You need a negative energy balance to lose weight, and you need a positive energy balance to build muscle; therefore, the two are diametrically opposed to one another.

    Your best strategy is to take advantage of the newbie gains; cut your body fat down to say 20% for a female or 15% for a male, and the do a bulk to add muscle…


    Starting strength and new rules of lifting are great resources…

    I would say keep eating in a deficit, and get on a heavy lifting program that involves compound movements and work in the four set range for each exercise and 8-12 reps per set….

    ETA - muscle gains are not the same as strength gains…you can gain strength in a deficit, I.E lift more weight then when you started, but this does not mean that you have build new muscle…

    second ETA - i would suggest cardio on your off days and not to combine them with lifting days….but if you must, then do cardio after you lift...
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^that guy.

    nailed it.
  • Mischievous_Rascal
    Mischievous_Rascal Posts: 1,791 Member
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    I second (third? lol) ^^^^^^^^that guy.

    He saves me a lot of typing, all the flipping time. :)
  • thewhitedragonfly
    thewhitedragonfly Posts: 33
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    if you are a newbie to lifting then over the first three to four months you will experience "newbie gains" and build muscle, even if in a deficit…however, after about three to four months this will stop and you will just be losing body fat. NOw, it may APPEAR that you are gaining muscle because as your body fat comes down it will expose the muscle that you had hidden under the body fat; however, this is not new muscle, it is just existing muscle.

    Think of it this way, can you build a house AND tear it down at the same time? Of course not….You need a negative energy balance to lose weight, and you need a positive energy balance to build muscle; therefore, the two are diametrically opposed to one another.

    Your best strategy is to take advantage of the newbie gains; cut your body fat down to say 20% for a female or 15% for a male, and the do a bulk to add muscle…


    Starting strength and new rules of lifting are great resources…

    I would say keep eating in a deficit, and get on a heavy lifting program that involves compound movements and work in the four set range for each exercise and 8-12 reps per set….

    ETA - muscle gains are not the same as strength gains…you can gain strength in a deficit, I.E lift more weight then when you started, but this does not mean that you have build new muscle…

    second ETA - i would suggest cardio on your off days and not to combine them with lifting days….but if you must, then do cardio after you lift...

    :love: thank you! I've thought about this question for a long time and now I get it.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    I second (third? lol) ^^^^^^^^that guy.

    He saves me a lot of typing, all the flipping time. :)

    that's exactly what I say to myself too LOL
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
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    I second (third? lol) ^^^^^^^^that guy.

    He saves me a lot of typing, all the flipping time. :)

    you are welcome :) lol
  • Cortelli
    Cortelli Posts: 1,369 Member
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    if you are a newbie to lifting then over the first three to four months you will experience "newbie gains" and build muscle, even if in a deficit…however, after about three to four months this will stop and you will just be losing body fat. NOw, it may APPEAR that you are gaining muscle because as your body fat comes down it will expose the muscle that you had hidden under the body fat; however, this is not new muscle, it is just existing muscle.

    Think of it this way, can you build a house AND tear it down at the same time? Of course not….You need a negative energy balance to lose weight, and you need a positive energy balance to build muscle; therefore, the two are diametrically opposed to one another.

    Your best strategy is to take advantage of the newbie gains; cut your body fat down to say 20% for a female or 15% for a male, and the do a bulk to add muscle…


    Starting strength and new rules of lifting are great resources…

    I would say keep eating in a deficit, and get on a heavy lifting program that involves compound movements and work in the four set range for each exercise and 8-12 reps per set….

    ETA - muscle gains are not the same as strength gains…you can gain strength in a deficit, I.E lift more weight then when you started, but this does not mean that you have build new muscle…

    second ETA - i would suggest cardio on your off days and not to combine them with lifting days….but if you must, then do cardio after you lift...

    Great post -- and I bolded one part that I always think deserves more attention in these sorts of threads. As you progress in progressive overload strength training -- i.e., lifting to failure or near failure at weights that demand relatively low reps (say 3 - 12 max), you can and will get stronger, A LOT stronger for a period of time (potentially a long period of time) even while in a deficit the whole time. Your muscles are not getting "bigger" and you are not necessarily adding muscle mass (but see newbies, returning builders, etc. above) -- but you neuromuscular system -- brain and muscles working together -- is getting trained and getting more efficient. Essentially, you neuromuscular capabilities expand and you (unconsciously of course) are able to recruit more of your existing muscle fiber to active work during lifts, and you (unconsciously of course) coordinate all that muscle work for greater efficiency.

    What this means in plainer English is -- you can be in a deficit for a long time (6+ months for sure for many people, including me) and continue during that whole time to build strength (lifting heavier weights and doing more reps) even though you are not "building muscle." And you are of course, with the intake of adequate protein, greatly minimizing the amount of muscle mass that you are losing when you're losing weight -- best of both worlds: you continue to lose weight, you lose mostly fat as opposed to muscle, and you get stronger and stronger. Eventually you will hit a strength ceiling that you cannot exceed without building more muscle mass; but for many / most people, that will be a long time off.

    Good luck!
  • histora
    histora Posts: 287 Member
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    I would like to say thank you to everyone for helping me understand it. Especially ndj1979 and cortelli (and maybe another that I can't see while the text box is open lol). You both translated the conventional wisdom into something I could actually apply to my situation.

    I'm actually enjoying my foray into strength training. I got an app to help guide me through the movements and best practices. And I did 15 mins of high intensity cardio. Is there a reason I should do the cardio after?

    This was an amazing source of information. Y'all are awesome.
  • Cortelli
    Cortelli Posts: 1,369 Member
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    Did a quick search for a few pithy reasons why strength before cardio. I had three reasons at the ready but didn't want to overstate things. I found this short blurb -- I am NOT endorsing this guy or this website in any way ('cause I know nothing about him / it other than its position in a Google search I did :tongue: ) -- and despite the fact that the article looks a little cheesy and I am not so conivnced about the science, or its importance, of some of his more chemistry-related reasons, I think the content was pretty good. Especially reminded me that, since we're talking about trying to lift "heavy" (which is a measure of the amount of reps you can do for any exercise, not the absolute weight), considering fatigue and the risk of injury is a pretty important point (and not one of the three reasons that jumped out at me when reading your question :ohwell: ).

    http://www.builtlean.com/2011/11/07/cardio-before-or-after-weights/

    For me it is more about items #1, #6, and #7 (the last of which is injury risk, and my actual third reason was it sucks to lift heavy weights in a really wet / sweaty shirt that got that way because of a burst of cardio beforehand - yuck on the chaffing!)

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