lean bulking

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  • NRBreit
    NRBreit Posts: 319 Member
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    Good rule of thumb is that you have to gain 10-15 lbs per every 1" of upper arm growth. Arms grow slow (and very nonlinear).

    1/4" per month in the waist is a pretty low amount. You could bulk 4 mo and only gain 1", and noone notices 1" but you.

    Everyone is different, but my arms went from 14.25" at 165 lbs. to 15.75" at 186 lbs. I gained 1" on the waist for every 5-7 lbs. gained. Waist is going back down 1" for every 4-5 lbs. lost.
  • MB2MN
    MB2MN Posts: 334 Member
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    Just curious to see the caloric intake of others trying to lean bulk...autumn is coming soon and its that time of year again to start putting on some LBM!

    I found best sucess around 2700 calories ( Lifted hard 4 days a week, no cardio)
    It's barley summer! Way to think ahead

    Original post was from last August.
  • garyx24
    garyx24 Posts: 3
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    Also while bulking and having all this milk and healthy food ish! Can anyone check my diary and tell me if I'm going wrong anywhere? I'm hitting my protein 150-180 and fats are in the 80 - 90 and carbs are prob lacking the most! ? U can prob tell apart from odd treat I had on Wednesday I'm not eating sweets and stuff!

    Is eating that much fat even tho it's healthy fats ok?

    You're low in carbs because you're relying a lot on liquid (milk) and protein shakes. You need more calorie dense foods like oatmeal, rice, pasta etc. Less shakes, more food if possible!
  • astronomicals
    astronomicals Posts: 1,537 Member
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    Also while bulking and having all this milk and healthy food ish! Can anyone check my diary and tell me if I'm going wrong anywhere? I'm hitting my protein 150-180 and fats are in the 80 - 90 and carbs are prob lacking the most! ? U can prob tell apart from odd treat I had on Wednesday I'm not eating sweets and stuff!

    Is eating that much fat even tho it's healthy fats ok?


    not knowing your weight makes it hard to comment... typically you'd wanna consume simple crabs around training, not complex... i suspect that your calories are too low for gaining, when I use your protein consumption to assume your bodyweight. fats are fine, eat them.... IMO, you're eating like you're cutting.. you dont need to stuff your face with purely "bro foods"...

    overall it looks pretty solid.. carbs may be a bit low... if your not gaining id put the additional cals into carbs and put a decent amount of them around training.. quite frajnkly, your probably doing a more disciplined job than 90% of people bulking... i think you can treat yourself a bit more, but, what you're doing doesnt look bad in any way (except possibly lacking calories and being low on carbs , which uyou already noted)
  • rumple2014
    rumple2014 Posts: 79
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    Also while bulking and having all this milk and healthy food ish! Can anyone check my diary and tell me if I'm going wrong anywhere? I'm hitting my protein 150-180 and fats are in the 80 - 90 and carbs are prob lacking the most! ? U can prob tell apart from odd treat I had on Wednesday I'm not eating sweets and stuff!

    Is eating that much fat even tho it's healthy fats ok?


    not knowing your weight makes it hard to comment... typically you'd wanna consume simple crabs around training, not complex... i suspect that your calories are too low for gaining, when I use your protein consumption to assume your bodyweight. fats are fine, eat them.... IMO, you're eating like you're cutting.. you dont need to stuff your face with purely "bro foods"...

    overall it looks pretty solid.. carbs may be a bit low... if your not gaining id put the additional cals into carbs and put a decent amount of them around training.. quite frajnkly, your probably doing a more disciplined job than 90% of people bulking... i think you can treat yourself a bit more, but, what you're doing doesnt look bad in any way (except possibly lacking calories and being low on carbs , which uyou already noted)

    I weigh 145 pounds and I put on 2kg in about a month! I was on 2700 but my tdee is 2200 so just to bulk is around 2500 apparantly!

    I have only 2-3 shakes a day really! I don't mind being strict as I look at it as fuel!
    I try to eat more carbs but tbh i think I eat a lot of good food anyway! Oatmeal every morning ! Snacks like banana and almonds and lunch at work is a egg sandwich coz I don't have a lot of time to fit other stuff in!

    I am trying to gain mass ! But I have hurt
    My back ATM so my strong lifts are suffering as I can only do bench press and over head press ATM ! Light squatting till I sort my lower back out!

    I only get 2 15 min breaks at work so should I eat more than just a banana or eat more almonds! Only concern is the amount of fat I'm eating macro wise!

    I am afraid of putting on too much fat tho!

    But I am lifting stronger as I go! Bit by bit! Being 64kg I found it hard to squat 55 kg last time I tried !
  • astronomicals
    astronomicals Posts: 1,537 Member
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    if you expect to minimize your fat gain to less than 1:1 ratio of fat:muscle than you're daydreaming, doing drugs, or recomping and calling it a bulk.

    you could get crazy and try some extreme cyclical dieting (UD2.0?)... id rather have a social life than do that
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    if you expect to minimize your fat gain to less than 1:1 ratio of fat:muscle than you're daydreaming, doing drugs, or recomping and calling it a bulk.

    you could get crazy and try some extreme cyclical dieting (UD2.0?)... id rather have a social life than do that

    I hit rates a good bit higher than 1:1, don't do drugs, am dead set against recomping, and maintain a constant surplus (try to hold steady at +400 cal/day).

    I measure fat gain with the tape measure. The most I've ever gained on a single bulk is 7/8" in the waist, which corresponds to about 3.5 lbs fat gain (1/4" = ~1 lb fat in me).

    Waist gain:

    Bulk #1 - 5/8" (12.8 lbs total gain, 17 weeks total time)
    Bulk #2 - 7/8" (9.8 lbs total gain, 13 weeks total time)
    Bulk #3 - 5/8" (10.0 lbs total gain, 12.5 weeks total time)
    Bulk #4 - 5/8" (6.4 lbs total gain, 8 weeks total time)

    I expect efficiency to start dropping here soon. The aggregate total of my first 50.5 weeks of bulking is 2 3/4" waist gain (~11 lbs fat gain) and 39.0 lbs total weight gain, a ratio well in excess of 3:1.

    Current:
    Bulk #5 - -1/8" (3.0 lbs total gain, 2.5 weeks total time)(in progress)

    Its never taken me longer than 2.5 weeks to cut all the fat gain off, and that was back when I cut slower. Nowadays I can drop 1" in the waist in 2 weeks.

    Calisthenics and diet consistency FTW!!!
    (no bro, I don't even lift)
  • NRBreit
    NRBreit Posts: 319 Member
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    if you expect to minimize your fat gain to less than 1:1 ratio of fat:muscle than you're daydreaming, doing drugs, or recomping and calling it a bulk.

    you could get crazy and try some extreme cyclical dieting (UD2.0?)... id rather have a social life than do that

    I hit rates a good bit higher than 1:1, don't do drugs, am dead set against recomping, and maintain a constant surplus (try to hold steady at +400 cal/day).

    I measure fat gain with the tape measure. The most I've ever gained on a single bulk is 7/8" in the waist, which corresponds to about 3.5 lbs fat gain (1/4" = ~1 lb fat in me).

    Waist gain:

    Bulk #1 - 5/8" (12.8 lbs total gain, 17 weeks total time)
    Bulk #2 - 7/8" (9.8 lbs total gain, 13 weeks total time)
    Bulk #3 - 5/8" (10.0 lbs total gain, 12.5 weeks total time)
    Bulk #4 - 5/8" (6.4 lbs total gain, 8 weeks total time)

    I expect efficiency to start dropping here soon. The aggregate total of my first 50.5 weeks of bulking is 2 3/4" waist gain (~11 lbs fat gain) and 39.0 lbs total weight gain, a ratio well in excess of 3:1.

    Current:
    Bulk #5 - -1/8" (3.0 lbs total gain, 2.5 weeks total time)(in progress)

    Its never taken me longer than 2.5 weeks to cut all the fat gain off, and that was back when I cut slower. Nowadays I can drop 1" in the waist in 2 weeks.

    Calisthenics and diet consistency FTW!!!
    (no bro, I don't even lift)


    Those are insanely good results. Gaining at a rate of 1 lb. per week, my experience has been that I gain 1" around the waist for every 5-7 lbs. gained. I lose 1" off the waist for every 4-5 lbs. lost.
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    Those are insanely good results. Gaining at a rate of 1 lb. per week, my experience has been that I gain 1" around the waist for every 5-7 lbs. gained. I lose 1" off the waist for every 4-5 lbs. lost.

    Do you do any cardio?

    IMHO regular easy-moderate cardio when bulking helps to keep the gains cleaner. While nonsense for people losing fat, when bulking the fat burning properties of easy-moderate cardio is useful.

    I also think that skewing your intake heavily towards carbs helps to keep the gains cleaner. This carbs are stored as fat nonsense people believe is totally untrue; virtually 100% of your body fat comes from dietary fat. You need some, but using fat to up your cals into the bulking zone is a good way to skew your gains away from muscle toward fat.
  • NRBreit
    NRBreit Posts: 319 Member
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    Do you do any cardio?

    IMHO regular easy-moderate cardio when bulking helps to keep the gains cleaner. While nonsense for people losing fat, when bulking the fat burning properties of easy-moderate cardio is useful.

    I also think that skewing your intake heavily towards carbs helps to keep the gains cleaner. This carbs are stored as fat nonsense people believe is totally untrue; virtually 100% of your body fat comes from dietary fat. You need some, but using fat to up your cals into the bulking zone is a good way to skew your gains away from muscle toward fat.

    I did cardio during bulk #1 but not bulk #2. Similar results both times. I was under the impression that the key was to get 1g/lb Protein and .45g/lb Fat and then apply remaining calories as you see fit (adjusting carbs and fats for best gym performance). I have not tried 'low fat' bulking because it's a lot easier to hit the daily calorie need by eating more fat. Something to try next time...

    Do you have any references for the dietary fat > body fat discussion? I would like to learn more about that.
  • Bun_Ya
    Bun_Ya Posts: 174
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    In for useful posts.
  • andyluvv
    andyluvv Posts: 281 Member
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    Oh Oh!

    This is just the topic I need! I just finished a "cut" to start bulking. I have a FitBit but I HATE the "TDEE" and being strict to a specific number of calories everyday as I feel that somedays I can be more hungry than others. So I'd rather "exercise as I go" and end up having a bit more to eat by the end of the day.

    I have set up my Fitbit on Maintenance (which according to fitbit it's about 2300 calories) and MFP to gain a pound a week. I have also set it to sedentary, so if I do end up "exercising" more than expected, I can eat those calories back. Does that sound like a good way to do it?

    I've just started trying it out today and MFP gave me 2580 calories to eat per day. Do you guys think that works? Then I also do some cardio (I enjoy running on the treadmill for 10 minutes before and after lifting) and do about an hour of heavy lifting 3 times a week (I'm currently using JCD Fitness' Lifting for Beginners guide).

    Looking forward to your replies :D
  • FitterBody
    FitterBody Posts: 367 Member
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    In for the info.
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    Do you have any references for the dietary fat > body fat discussion? I would like to learn more about that.

    Look for research on De Novo Lipogenesis, the process of converting ingested carbs/protein into body fat. It is well proven to be an irrelevant process in humans. The metabolic pathway exists but it is more of an emergency measure than anything, and not used anything beyond a negligible way in normal humans.
  • FitterBody
    FitterBody Posts: 367 Member
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    Do you have any references for the dietary fat > body fat discussion? I would like to learn more about that.

    Look for research on De Novo Lipogenesis, the process of converting ingested carbs/protein into body fat. It is well proven to be an irrelevant process in humans. The metabolic pathway exists but it is more of an emergency measure than anything, and not used anything beyond a negligible way in normal humans.

    I'd agree with that. Some carbs have an undeserved bad rep! Not "scientific", I agree, but personal experience has shown me that a very high carb, very low fat diet has seen me lose easily without feeling hunger or food cravings. I will add that the caveats to that are eating in a slight deficit, and eating mostly "natural" carbs, i.e fresh tubers, veggies, fruits, beans, brown rice, etc. , not necessarily raw, but self cooked in a pressure cooker, steamed, oven dry baked, dry fried, etc. bonus is meeting or exceeding pretty much all micros, and obviously a huge number of phytonutrients, etc that MFP does not track. Thanks for the opinion that this method will work when lean bulking too.
  • Acg67
    Acg67 Posts: 12,142 Member
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    Do you do any cardio?

    IMHO regular easy-moderate cardio when bulking helps to keep the gains cleaner. While nonsense for people losing fat, when bulking the fat burning properties of easy-moderate cardio is useful.

    I also think that skewing your intake heavily towards carbs helps to keep the gains cleaner. This carbs are stored as fat nonsense people believe is totally untrue; virtually 100% of your body fat comes from dietary fat. You need some, but using fat to up your cals into the bulking zone is a good way to skew your gains away from muscle toward fat.

    I did cardio during bulk #1 but not bulk #2. Similar results both times. I was under the impression that the key was to get 1g/lb Protein and .45g/lb Fat and then apply remaining calories as you see fit (adjusting carbs and fats for best gym performance). I have not tried 'low fat' bulking because it's a lot easier to hit the daily calorie need by eating more fat. Something to try next time...

    Do you have any references for the dietary fat > body fat discussion? I would like to learn more about that.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/62/1/19.full.pdf+html

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1103993
  • No_Finish_Line
    No_Finish_Line Posts: 3,662 Member
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    cliffnotes for the lazy!

    are we saying that approximately 300 cal surplus is adaquate to build muscle?
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    Do you do any cardio?

    IMHO regular easy-moderate cardio when bulking helps to keep the gains cleaner. While nonsense for people losing fat, when bulking the fat burning properties of easy-moderate cardio is useful.

    I also think that skewing your intake heavily towards carbs helps to keep the gains cleaner. This carbs are stored as fat nonsense people believe is totally untrue; virtually 100% of your body fat comes from dietary fat. You need some, but using fat to up your cals into the bulking zone is a good way to skew your gains away from muscle toward fat.

    I did cardio during bulk #1 but not bulk #2. Similar results both times. I was under the impression that the key was to get 1g/lb Protein and .45g/lb Fat and then apply remaining calories as you see fit (adjusting carbs and fats for best gym performance). I have not tried 'low fat' bulking because it's a lot easier to hit the daily calorie need by eating more fat. Something to try next time...

    Do you have any references for the dietary fat > body fat discussion? I would like to learn more about that.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/62/1/19.full.pdf+html

    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1103993

    That first study is pretty awesome (though it sucks that it was study fat people and getting fat, and excluded people who lift, I suspect that the effect where higher fat intake leads to higher fat gains would be even stronger given a bulking-style training protocol).

    I actually posted a different article from the exact same journal in a different discussion elsewhere today and had to do a double take. That article is also relevant to this discussion:
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/62/5/1107S.long

    Here's a study on DNL:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10365981
  • No_Finish_Line
    No_Finish_Line Posts: 3,662 Member
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    ^^

    "Only when CHO energy intake exceeds TEE does DNL in liver or adipose tissue contribute significantly to the whole-body energy economy. "
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member
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    ^^

    "Only when CHO energy intake exceeds TEE does DNL in liver or adipose tissue contribute significantly to the whole-body energy economy. "

    Thats A LOT of carbs to take in, for me that would be in excess of 800g/day. One day is also not enough, it takes a few days sustaining that rate to really trigger DNL.

    It can be safely assumed that most people have never sustained taking in the amount of carbs needed to trigger DNL.

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