Understanding MFP Calories
Azdak
Posts: 8,281 Member
This is a blog I posted about a year ago. There are always questions about "which calories to believe--HRM or MFP?". The answer is: there is no one answer.
MFP is a great site, but I think sometimes people misunderstand what it is--at least when it comes to available calculations. MFP doesn't have a "brain"--by that, I mean, the information people get about activities is not something that is generated by MFP. In this regard, MFP is really just a location where a lot of standard information and information databases have been gathered and an interface has been installed to allow people to easily access the information.
That's actually a lot of work, and I think MFP does it better than a lot of sites, which is why it has grown. But the information you get from MFP is only as good as its source. And since it is not really practical for MFP to evaluate every single piece of data, the accuracy is going to be mixed.
To understand more, the entire blog is listed below:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/estimating-calories-activity-databases-198041
An important part of tracking energy expenditure is knowing how many calories you are burning during exercise and non-exercise activity. There are a number of tools available for this purpose: Activity Database (e.g. MFP), Machine readouts, Heart Rate Monitors, Free-living monitors such as Body Bugg. Since I have discussed HRMs in great detail in other blogs, I am going to concentrate on Activity Databases.
A brief review: a calorie is a measure of heat. The reason we can use it to estimate energy expenditure is that the biochemical processes that occur to provide our bodies with the energy they need to function give off fixed amounts of heat.
How do we actually measure calories? There are two most common methods used in research are: measurement of oxygen uptake through analysis of expired air, and metabolic chambers.
Movements/exercises that are simple, rhythmic, and consistent are easier to measure, and the equations used to predict energy expenditure are more accurate. They are also easier to generalize to the population as a whole.
Movements/exercises that are complex, intermittent, that derive energy from different metabolic pathways (i.e. anaerobic vs aerobic), and can occur under varied conditions are very difficult to measure and very diffcult to generalize.
In addition, energy expediture is very specific to the exact level of workoad intensity--so the more general the description of the activity, the less accurate the energy estimate will be.
Reliable energy prediction equations have been available for years for activities such as walking, running, stair climbing, and cycle ergometer (stationary bike that accurately measures workload).
Energy estimates for other exercise activities have been derived by studying a group of subjects, measuring their oxygen uptake while performing the activity at various tempos, and then deriving a "best fit" equation that is used for everyone. The accuracy of the equation/table is dependent on the quality of the study, the size and makeup of the sample group, etc.
There are fairly extensive lists predicting the energy cost of various recreational and occupational activties. They were developed primarily to evaluate when someone who had suffered a heart attack or job injury could return to work. These were developed using the same methods described in the previous paragraph and are subject to the same limitations. A well known example is the Taylor Codes Compendium of Physcial Activities.
(This was during those quaint, older times when A) there were still jobs available that required physical labor; there were still jobs available for older American workers who had suffered an injury or a heart attack.)
Activity databases include all of the above. Therefore, some listed activities will be very accurate and some won't be accurate at all. Let's look at some typical groups of activities in a little more detail:
Walking: if you are on a treadmill at 4.2 mph or less, and you are not holding on to the handrails, then the database numbers and the machine numbers will be very accurate (assuming you can enter your body weight), both for level walking and incline walking. They should be more accurate than any other method, including at HRM or Body Bugg. (The exception would be for someone who is extremely overweight/morbidly obese).
This holds true only if you can enter the actual speed and elevation numbers. A database entry such as "brisk walking with hills" will not be that accurate. If that is your only choice, or if you are walking outside over varied terrain, an HRM will usually be more accurate than the database (only if it is set up properly).
Running: The equations for running are also well-established, but I have seen research that suggests that, on treadmills, and as speeds increase above 6.5 mph, they start to overestimate energy expenditure by up to 15%. So database and machine numbers should be OK with that adjustment. For outdoor running on a flat surface or a track, the database numbers should be even a little more accurate--otherwise, with varied terrain, it's the same as walking.
Computerized (Commercial) Stationary Bike/Stepmill: The machine readouts should be pretty accurate, althougth you have to minimize handrail support on the Stepmill. Most commercial exercise bikes have calibrated resistance levels that, while not research level accurate, are accurate enough for our purposes. The problem with the databases is that they don't allow you to enter precise workloads (e.g. avg Watts)--they just use descriptions such as "light", "moderate" and "hard". In this case, I would go: machine, HRM, and use database only as a last resort.
Cross Trainers: When it comes to calorie estimates, cross trainers have the worst reputation for accuracy--and deservedly so. It's because of the non-standard nature of the movement--every manufacturer has a different movement design, so each machine needs to have its own specific energy-prediction algorithm. Some do it better than others, but the list of cross trainers with accurate calorie readouts is very small. Database numbers are probably going to be significantly off as well, and need to be approached with caution.
Group exercise: Energy expenditure is so dependent on coordination, skill level, willingness/ability to push oneself, choreography of the class, etc, that any database entry will be mostly a random guess. Flawed as they can be, HRMs are the best choice for these activities (keep in mind that at best an HRM will only be about 80% accurate).
Circuit Training/CrossFit/P90X, etc: These types of activities are very difficult to predict--because of the varied movements, different metabolic pathways, etc, there is no method that will be consistently accurate--database, HRM, nothing. If this is your main form of exercise, you can use the HRM numbers as a starting point, but you will likely also have to use the "trial and error" method.
Recreational/Occupational Activities: See "Circuit Training" ---only worse. The extra problem with using tables for these types of activities is that they often assume you are doing the activity continuously at a consistent pace. If you put down "gardening, 2 hours" you will get a huge number. If we did a time-study of you doing the activity, we would likely find that in 2 hours, you did only 30 minutes of the sustained "gardening" activity on which the database numbers were based. I would be extremely cautious and conservative about entering ANY recreational/occupational activities into your daily energy estimates.
Hopefully, I didn't wander too far off the path here (what's the calorie burn for "rambling on"?), but gave you some perspective on how you can rely on different sources for calorie numbers.
If you see big discrepancies--between MFP and the machine, between MFP and your HRM, the machine and your HRM, etc--consider the nature of the activity and whether it falls into one of the "more accurate" or "less accurate" categories described above. That will help you make a better "educated guess" on how to include those numbers.
Consider the nature of the activity (simple & consistent or varied & intermittent?)
Can you enter in precise workloads? (speed/elevation, watts, distance/time)?
Is the activity mainly aerobic, anaerobic, or a combination?
Is your effort dependent on mastering specific sport skills?
How continuous is the activity movement? Is it a sustained effort or intermittent?
This will help you determine the most accurate source of calorie information.
A general rule is that the more "general" the estimate, the more caution you should exercise when including those numbers in your eating plan.
MFP is a great site, but I think sometimes people misunderstand what it is--at least when it comes to available calculations. MFP doesn't have a "brain"--by that, I mean, the information people get about activities is not something that is generated by MFP. In this regard, MFP is really just a location where a lot of standard information and information databases have been gathered and an interface has been installed to allow people to easily access the information.
That's actually a lot of work, and I think MFP does it better than a lot of sites, which is why it has grown. But the information you get from MFP is only as good as its source. And since it is not really practical for MFP to evaluate every single piece of data, the accuracy is going to be mixed.
To understand more, the entire blog is listed below:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/estimating-calories-activity-databases-198041
An important part of tracking energy expenditure is knowing how many calories you are burning during exercise and non-exercise activity. There are a number of tools available for this purpose: Activity Database (e.g. MFP), Machine readouts, Heart Rate Monitors, Free-living monitors such as Body Bugg. Since I have discussed HRMs in great detail in other blogs, I am going to concentrate on Activity Databases.
A brief review: a calorie is a measure of heat. The reason we can use it to estimate energy expenditure is that the biochemical processes that occur to provide our bodies with the energy they need to function give off fixed amounts of heat.
How do we actually measure calories? There are two most common methods used in research are: measurement of oxygen uptake through analysis of expired air, and metabolic chambers.
Movements/exercises that are simple, rhythmic, and consistent are easier to measure, and the equations used to predict energy expenditure are more accurate. They are also easier to generalize to the population as a whole.
Movements/exercises that are complex, intermittent, that derive energy from different metabolic pathways (i.e. anaerobic vs aerobic), and can occur under varied conditions are very difficult to measure and very diffcult to generalize.
In addition, energy expediture is very specific to the exact level of workoad intensity--so the more general the description of the activity, the less accurate the energy estimate will be.
Reliable energy prediction equations have been available for years for activities such as walking, running, stair climbing, and cycle ergometer (stationary bike that accurately measures workload).
Energy estimates for other exercise activities have been derived by studying a group of subjects, measuring their oxygen uptake while performing the activity at various tempos, and then deriving a "best fit" equation that is used for everyone. The accuracy of the equation/table is dependent on the quality of the study, the size and makeup of the sample group, etc.
There are fairly extensive lists predicting the energy cost of various recreational and occupational activties. They were developed primarily to evaluate when someone who had suffered a heart attack or job injury could return to work. These were developed using the same methods described in the previous paragraph and are subject to the same limitations. A well known example is the Taylor Codes Compendium of Physcial Activities.
(This was during those quaint, older times when A) there were still jobs available that required physical labor; there were still jobs available for older American workers who had suffered an injury or a heart attack.)
Activity databases include all of the above. Therefore, some listed activities will be very accurate and some won't be accurate at all. Let's look at some typical groups of activities in a little more detail:
Walking: if you are on a treadmill at 4.2 mph or less, and you are not holding on to the handrails, then the database numbers and the machine numbers will be very accurate (assuming you can enter your body weight), both for level walking and incline walking. They should be more accurate than any other method, including at HRM or Body Bugg. (The exception would be for someone who is extremely overweight/morbidly obese).
This holds true only if you can enter the actual speed and elevation numbers. A database entry such as "brisk walking with hills" will not be that accurate. If that is your only choice, or if you are walking outside over varied terrain, an HRM will usually be more accurate than the database (only if it is set up properly).
Running: The equations for running are also well-established, but I have seen research that suggests that, on treadmills, and as speeds increase above 6.5 mph, they start to overestimate energy expenditure by up to 15%. So database and machine numbers should be OK with that adjustment. For outdoor running on a flat surface or a track, the database numbers should be even a little more accurate--otherwise, with varied terrain, it's the same as walking.
Computerized (Commercial) Stationary Bike/Stepmill: The machine readouts should be pretty accurate, althougth you have to minimize handrail support on the Stepmill. Most commercial exercise bikes have calibrated resistance levels that, while not research level accurate, are accurate enough for our purposes. The problem with the databases is that they don't allow you to enter precise workloads (e.g. avg Watts)--they just use descriptions such as "light", "moderate" and "hard". In this case, I would go: machine, HRM, and use database only as a last resort.
Cross Trainers: When it comes to calorie estimates, cross trainers have the worst reputation for accuracy--and deservedly so. It's because of the non-standard nature of the movement--every manufacturer has a different movement design, so each machine needs to have its own specific energy-prediction algorithm. Some do it better than others, but the list of cross trainers with accurate calorie readouts is very small. Database numbers are probably going to be significantly off as well, and need to be approached with caution.
Group exercise: Energy expenditure is so dependent on coordination, skill level, willingness/ability to push oneself, choreography of the class, etc, that any database entry will be mostly a random guess. Flawed as they can be, HRMs are the best choice for these activities (keep in mind that at best an HRM will only be about 80% accurate).
Circuit Training/CrossFit/P90X, etc: These types of activities are very difficult to predict--because of the varied movements, different metabolic pathways, etc, there is no method that will be consistently accurate--database, HRM, nothing. If this is your main form of exercise, you can use the HRM numbers as a starting point, but you will likely also have to use the "trial and error" method.
Recreational/Occupational Activities: See "Circuit Training" ---only worse. The extra problem with using tables for these types of activities is that they often assume you are doing the activity continuously at a consistent pace. If you put down "gardening, 2 hours" you will get a huge number. If we did a time-study of you doing the activity, we would likely find that in 2 hours, you did only 30 minutes of the sustained "gardening" activity on which the database numbers were based. I would be extremely cautious and conservative about entering ANY recreational/occupational activities into your daily energy estimates.
Hopefully, I didn't wander too far off the path here (what's the calorie burn for "rambling on"?), but gave you some perspective on how you can rely on different sources for calorie numbers.
If you see big discrepancies--between MFP and the machine, between MFP and your HRM, the machine and your HRM, etc--consider the nature of the activity and whether it falls into one of the "more accurate" or "less accurate" categories described above. That will help you make a better "educated guess" on how to include those numbers.
Consider the nature of the activity (simple & consistent or varied & intermittent?)
Can you enter in precise workloads? (speed/elevation, watts, distance/time)?
Is the activity mainly aerobic, anaerobic, or a combination?
Is your effort dependent on mastering specific sport skills?
How continuous is the activity movement? Is it a sustained effort or intermittent?
This will help you determine the most accurate source of calorie information.
A general rule is that the more "general" the estimate, the more caution you should exercise when including those numbers in your eating plan.
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Replies
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Bump for reference0
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Since Dec. according to MFP I've been under my caloric goals and I haven't lost a pound.
Also been doing cardio and lifting mainly large muscle groups with lighter weight and higher reps. And 20-30 minutes on elliptical machine at least three times a week. With no weight loss I don't get it0 -
Since Dec. according to MFP I've been under my caloric goals and I haven't lost a pound.
Also been doing cardio and lifting mainly large muscle groups with lighter weight and higher reps. And 20-30 minutes on elliptical machine at least three times a week. With no weight loss I don't get it
Losing weight has nothing to do with working out. It has to do with eating fewer calories. Focus on that first, WEIGH all your food (not just measuring cups and spoons), even pre-packaged stuff....it can be off on the label by up to 20%! Make sure you're hitting those goals. If you want to keep muscle while losing weight then make sure to keep your protein high. I would also only eat back half your exercise calories b/c of the inaccuracies listed above.0 -
Supergirl, I have been keeping a close account on food like you said. I started at 1200 calories and thought maybe my metabolism was slowing, now at 1500 calories with no difference. Most of the time I do eat back exercise calories.0
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bump0
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Supergirl, I have been keeping a close account on food like you said. I started at 1200 calories and thought maybe my metabolism was slowing, now at 1500 calories with no difference. Most of the time I do eat back exercise calories.
How are you calculating your exercise calories. MFP can be way off. I'm certainly no expert on this, I've just been doing a TON of reading about it because I was having the same problem. Only in this past week have I made a more concerted effort to assure my food diary is as completely accurate as it could be and I've kept off the weight I've lost instead of fluctuating. We'll see in a few more days if I lose any when I do my next weigh in. I'd suggest only eating back half your exercise calories and see if that makes a difference.0 -
Supergirl, I have been keeping a close account on food like you said. I started at 1200 calories and thought maybe my metabolism was slowing, now at 1500 calories with no difference. Most of the time I do eat back exercise calories.
Settings --> Diary settings --> Diary sharing --> Public --> Save Changes
Make your diary public so we can see how you're logging your food and exercise and offer tips. How many pounds are you trying to lose?0 -
In the end, the figures are generally used to work out a deficit.
The real 'tell' of whether the many different figures are correct or not is the scales.
Of course, your bathroom scales can be out too, just to further confuse things.
I like apps like 'libra' which average out the figures to show you a trend - ideally you weigh daily and it ignores fluctuations.
If your weight trend over time is going down, you are in a deficit, if it's going up, you are in a surplus.
Of course, it's nice to have more accurate data to work back from, but I'd say this is the best start.0 -
Actually, IMO, neither MFP nor the HRM are accurate in actually knowing calories burned.
While calories burned is a feature of a HRM, the main purpose of a HRM is monitor your heart rate; not to calculate calories burned.
I have a HRM that provides the average heart rate. Then I plug in the numbers in a "calories burned" calculators online. Each site provides the reasoning behind their calculations and equations.
*** http://www.shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/heart-rate-based-calorie-burn-calculator.aspx
*** http://www.calories-calculator.net/Calories_Burned_By_Heart_Rate.html
The HRM is way off from what the calculator says. I have lost 30 inches; 17 lbs, and 8% body fat since August. So it has worked for me.0 -
A decent HRM system should offer you the best guess, I'd say...
For instance my motoactv while riding my bike has my heart rate at each moment, it knows the weight of me and the bike, has cadence and speed from the wheel as well as speed from the GPS, I believe it also topological data and other sesnors to show if I'm going up or down at the time.0 -
Actually, IMO, neither MFP nor the HRM are accurate in actually knowing calories burned.
While calories burned is a feature of a HRM, the main purpose of a HRM is monitor your heart rate; not to calculate calories burned.
I have a HRM that provides the average heart rate. Then I plug in the numbers in a "calories burned" calculators online. Each site provides the reasoning behind their calculations and equations.
*** http://www.shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/heart-rate-based-calorie-burn-calculator.aspx
*** http://www.calories-calculator.net/Calories_Burned_By_Heart_Rate.html
The HRM is way off from what the calculator says. I have lost 30 inches; 17 lbs, and 8% body fat since August. So it has worked for me.
How is the website any different if the only data you've provided it is the average heart rate computed by the HRM? The watch has a teeny tiny computer on it, too.0 -
You should go to the websites and read about the reasonings and equations behind their calculations. You plug in more than just your average heart rate.
The HRM (polar) uses a different equation to calculate calories burned....which I dont believe to be the most accurate.
The equation is the key!0 -
You should go to the websites and read about the reasonings and equations behind their calculations. You plug in more than just your average heart rate.
The HRM (polar) uses a different equation to calculate calories burned....which I dont believe to be the most accurate.
The equation is the key!
I went to one of the two sites. The information plugged in is already programmed into my HRM and updated as I lose weight. Don't know about the second website. Was just curious. It appears you simply trust the website's algorithm over Polar's0 -
You should go to the websites and read about the reasonings and equations behind their calculations. You plug in more than just your average heart rate.
The HRM (polar) uses a different equation to calculate calories burned....which I dont believe to be the most accurate.
The equation is the key!
Those equations still suffer from the same shortcomings as HRMs (and they use similar algorithms, just with different numbers). There is a wide range of "normal" maximum heart rates that is inherent in the normal human population. These equations cannot account for that variance. They also cannot account for changes in heart rate that are not driven by steady-state aerobic metabolism--e.g. thermal stress, illness, fatigue, cardiovascular drift.
Depending on how these equations were derived (the size and makeup of the study sample), they may or may not represent an improvement in accuracy over the Polar equations. But they still are going to be affected by the factors I described above.0
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