Question about my HIIT program.

Shaselai
Shaselai Posts: 151
in Fitness and Exercise
I have done HIIT a couple of times prior to today to get the feel of it but never in a setting where I was looking at the display from heart monitor. A little background:
Age 32
254 lbs
Diet plan : keto

Currently do 1-2 hrs cardio a day with 3 days/week weight training so i didnt come into HIIT "blind"
I did the following program:
Elliptical (forget name maybe S something?) - selected burn fat setting and started with resistance 8.
3 mins warmup - got heart rate to 160ish
20seconds HIIT 40 rest X14
3 mins cooldown.

Here's what i observed from the heart rate monitor - I used the Wahoo monitor because i am using a fitbit tracker already and the wireless to phone is pretty sweet.. Ironically enough i bought the heart rate monitor yesterday and when i used it today i found out i won a raffle for a polar FT4..

Avg: 162bpm Max:182bpm
During the workout I was floating around 160ish during "rest" and I noticed that it takes me a good 5-6 seconds to step it up into 170ish and i kept it there until the 20 seconds ends. My RPM was floating ~100 during rest and ~120 during HIIT and I was breathing pretty hard throughout but didn't have any "negative" feelings like dizziness etc. I am not sure what the "max heart rate" formula to look at but if the generic one is 220-age then 170ish is 90%+ which i guess is HIIT range.

After cooldown and 10minutes later i was around 110 and did zumba for an hour which averaged 148bpm.

So i guess my question is should i use the same workout plan next time or i should make some adjustments like resistance, incline etc? I am not sure if taking 5-6 seconds to get up to 170ish is a concern or not though....

I did eat 8 macadamia nuts 3 hours prior to workout....

Thanks in advance!

Replies

  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    Currently do 1-2 hrs cardio a day with 3 days/week weight training so i didnt come into HIIT "blind"

    1-2 hours on machines or are you doing something else? That sounds like a lot of CV work with no clear objective in mind.

    So what objectives are you aiming for with all of this? HIIT is just a tool that we can use to improve VO2Max, but in its own right it's of limited value.
    3 mins warmup - got heart rate to 160ish

    So where does that compare to your HR for a normal CV session?

    I would normally expect my HR to be between 150 and 160 bpm for a long, easy paced session, but I'm older than you, but somewhat lighter. That said, getting there in 3 minutes would be a challenge. before an interval session I'd warm up for about 15 minutes at 6mph.
    20seconds HIIT 40 rest X14

    OK, your intervals are reasonable, perhaps a little short but there is a balance between duration and the intensity that you can sustain. If you're doing a 20 second iterval then that's a very significant amount of effort, if you increase to a 60 second interval then the maximum effort you can put in is a bit lower. You need to find the balance. I do three types; 20 seconds, 200 metres or 400 metre intervals. I can sometimes do 1Km intervals, but they're closer to tempo sessions.
    3 mins cooldown.

    Personally I cool down for about 15 minutes, as an intervals session is tough enough that it takes me about half of that to stabilise, again at about 6mph.
    Avg: 162bpm Max:182bpm

    Difficult to compare but I'd suggest that if your max is 182 you have quite a lot in reserve, so you could put a chunk more effort in during the high intensity periods.
    During the workout I was floating around 160ish during "rest" and I noticed that it takes me a good 5-6 seconds to step it up into 170ish and i kept it there until the 20 seconds ends.

    The time delay is a function of using the machine, The other drawack with a machine is that you don't get the opportunity to develop the explosive power at the transition point as you're heavily mediated by the mechanics.
    I am not sure what the "max heart rate" formula to look at but if the generic one is 220-age then 170ish is 90%+ which i guess is HIIT range.

    I wouldn't worry too much about that, the formula isn't particularly useful for many people. Personally my theoretical MHR is 176, I can manage about 3km it 185 and my highest intensities are around 200. I'd suggest just working on rate of perceived exertion, push yourself as hard as you can, then ease back.
    After cooldown and 10minutes later i was around 110 and did zumba for an hour which averaged 148bpm.

    I'd normally not expect to do anything after an intervals session, they're pretty debilitating. I'd suggest that if you ad enough in reserve to spend an hour doing Zumba, you had more to give during your intervals session.

    What other types of sessions are you doing to complement it?
  • snazzyjazzy21
    snazzyjazzy21 Posts: 1,298 Member
    A HRM won't be that accurate with HIIT, they're designed for steady state cardio only. There will always be a lag in readings when it comes to your HR, due to it rising and falling rapidly. And if you can do an hour of zumba after a HIIT workout, you're probably not working hard enough in all honestly.
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    A HRM won't be that accurate with HIIT, they're designed for steady state cardio only.

    An HRM is designed to measure heart rate, and in that respect it's a tool that supports one when doing training, whether steady state or interval. The read transition is more a reflection of the delay in increasing the HR, as the HRM cacthing up is measured in microseconds.

    When lots of people say that HRMs aren't designed for anything ecept steady state, what they mean is that the calorie expenditure estimate is based on an assumption of steady state or smoothly transitioning heart rate. that's largely because HR isn't a great indicator of calorie expenditure, so there are big assumptions in the algorithms.

    an HRM is a useful tool in training as it indicates what's happening to the heart as a result of exertion.
  • snazzyjazzy21
    snazzyjazzy21 Posts: 1,298 Member
    A HRM won't be that accurate with HIIT, they're designed for steady state cardio only.

    An HRM is designed to measure heart rate, and in that respect it's a tool that supports one when doing training, whether steady state or interval. The read transition is more a reflection of the delay in increasing the HR, as the HRM cacthing up is measured in microseconds.

    When lots of people say that HRMs aren't designed for anything ecept steady state, what they mean is that the calorie expenditure estimate is based on an assumption of steady state or smoothly transitioning heart rate. that's largely because HR isn't a great indicator of calorie expenditure, so there are big assumptions in the algorithms.

    an HRM is a useful tool in training as it indicates what's happening to the heart as a result of exertion.

    Apologies, I should have worded that more clearly, thanks for the correction :)
  • Shaselai
    Shaselai Posts: 151
    My goal is to lose weight/burn fat and Zumba is one activity i find to "pass the time" and enjoy. I do 1-2 hrs a day doing zumba as my cardio and I average 150BPM. Good call on the intervals - I did feel I could push a little bit more but i was more relieved i could take a breather....

    As for other exercises I havent thought to complement it but i do do weights MWF so i could do HIIT afterwards. Zumba i do everyday so i could do it as cool down after HIIT. Weekends i tend to hike for 9-10 miles.

    Any suggestions for how many times i should do HIIT? I read that some people do it every other day (3-4 a week).
  • _lyndseybrooke_
    _lyndseybrooke_ Posts: 2,561 Member
    1-2 hours of cardio a day? Ugh, that sounds like torture.
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    OK, so what you're talking about isn't a great combination for outcomes, and to a large extent the amount of time you're spending doung CV work means you're not very time efficient for outcomes.

    Weight loss is more about expending more calories than you consume, the benefit of doing some training is that you get more flexibility around what you eat. What's your calorie goal?

    The different modes of exercise are broadly

    Long duration steady state - this builds endurance, and from what you're saying your doing this already. My long slow runs are 90-180 minutes at generally about 6mph. If you're doing 2 hours of zumba you're in the same ballpark.

    Medium dureation higher intensity - generally working just below your lactate threshold for 25-30 minutes following a warm up and before a cool down, improving your exercise efficiency, your ability to perform effectively under physical stress.

    Short duration highest intensity intervals, HIIT essentially, which improves your ability to process oxyen wen you're in an anaerobic state. Increases your VO2Max.

    Each of those works together, clearly calorie expenditure increases as intensity increases, but total calories expended is a function of duration. So while HIIT does burn calories quickly, you only do it for a very short period of time. These are physically quite debilitating, so I generally wouldn't advise more than two of these a week, and even then not often.

    Perosnally I run, and tend to do one long slow run, one tempo session and one interval session per week with one other moderate intensity run alongside that.

    You're probably doing about as much resistance training as you need to at three days, but you'll get much more benefit from a slightly smarter approach to your CV.
  • Shaselai
    Shaselai Posts: 151
    OK, so what you're talking about isn't a great combination for outcomes, and to a large extent the amount of time you're spending doung CV work means you're not very time efficient for outcomes.

    Weight loss is more about expending more calories than you consume, the benefit of doing some training is that you get more flexibility around what you eat. What's your calorie goal?

    The different modes of exercise are broadly

    Long duration steady state - this builds endurance, and from what you're saying your doing this already. My long slow runs are 90-180 minutes at generally about 6mph. If you're doing 2 hours of zumba you're in the same ballpark.

    Medium dureation higher intensity - generally working just below your lactate threshold for 25-30 minutes following a warm up and before a cool down, improving your exercise efficiency, your ability to perform effectively under physical stress.

    Short duration highest intensity intervals, HIIT essentially, which improves your ability to process oxyen wen you're in an anaerobic state. Increases your VO2Max.

    Each of those works together, clearly calorie expenditure increases as intensity increases, but total calories expended is a function of duration. So while HIIT does burn calories quickly, you only do it for a very short period of time. These are physically quite debilitating, so I generally wouldn't advise more than two of these a week, and even then not often.

    Perosnally I run, and tend to do one long slow run, one tempo session and one interval session per week with one other moderate intensity run alongside that.

    You're probably doing about as much resistance training as you need to at three days, but you'll get much more benefit from a slightly smarter approach to your CV.

    I basically wanted more calorie deficit and the only exercise that wont get me "bored" is zumba and i look forward to it everyday. What type of efficiency can do to improve overall plan? I am on a 1300ish calorie diet right now and i i have dinner after i work out (the only time where I am "hungry") around 8ish.
  • MG_Fit
    MG_Fit Posts: 1,143 Member
    1-2 hours of cardio a day? Ugh, that sounds like torture.

    Yup, and I stopped at keto.
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    I basically wanted more calorie deficit and the only exercise that wont get me "bored" is zumba and i look forward to it everyday.

    So according to MFP an hour of Zumba gives you 700 extra calories, so that you can eat a total of 2000 and still hit your calorie goal of 1300. 700 is probably a bit high, so I'd anticipate that you're not eating back all of the margin that it gives you. what's your planned loss rate? You could afford to be losing at 2lbs per week at the moment, but at 1300 cals per day you're probably losing faster than that.

    Notwithstanding that a 1300 calorie intake is low for a man, most health authorities recommend a minimum of between 1500 and 1600 cals per day. I know when I was on 1600 I was in a really difficult place as far as my energy and general functionality was concerned.

    I'd suggest that you're doing far more CV work than you need to given your goals, since you're not really doing anything about burning calories. Couple that with a below healthy food consumption your weight loss is going to include fat, lean mass and structural tissues. If you're wanting to emphasise fat loss within your weight loss you really need to be doing more training that's focussed on retaining lean mass, and zumba isn't it.

    Resistance training, weight bearing CV like running or something that involves a measure of resistance as well as CV; rowing, cycling, swimming. That will give you a solid base fitness to build from when the weight has come off.
  • spoiledpuppies
    spoiledpuppies Posts: 675 Member
    I agree with another commenter that if you went on to do Zumba, you didn't work hard enough during your HIIT session. My trainer even says that if you can go as hard (speed, incline) in your last interval as your first interval, you didn't push yourself hard enough.

    14 intervals seem like a lot too. My trainer has assigned me routines anywhere from 5-8 intervals, typically with even more recovery time--sometimes up to four minutes. (Again, he says that in theory you should need all the time--for that routine in particular. If I recover sooner, I didn't work hard enough.)

    I'm also ONLY doing HIIT with heavy lifting. I've been told that regular cardio is for competing goals and would just hinder things--again, in my case. I'm not saying this is true for everyone/everyone's goals.
  • Shaselai
    Shaselai Posts: 151
    I agree with another commenter that if you went on to do Zumba, you didn't work hard enough during your HIIT session. My trainer even says that if you can go as hard (speed, incline) in your last interval as your first interval, you didn't push yourself hard enough.

    14 intervals seem like a lot too. My trainer has assigned me routines anywhere from 5-8 intervals, typically with even more recovery time--sometimes up to four minutes. (Again, he says that in theory you should need all the time--for that routine in particular. If I recover sooner, I didn't work hard enough.)

    I'm also ONLY doing HIIT with heavy lifting. I've been told that regular cardio is for competing goals and would just hinder things--again, in my case. I'm not saying this is true for everyone/everyone's goals.

    Is your HIIT interval longer? maybe 30seconds or more? The plan i used is a modified tabata :
    http://www.wholeisticallyfit.com/2013/03/07/20-minute-tabata-style-hiit-elliptical-workout/

    I didnt follow that to a T since i rested more though. Doesn't heart rate "indicate" how hard one's going though? I mean i am pretty sure i am hitting ~90% while doing HIIT intervals and i am basically catching my breath throughout as well...
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    14 intervals seem like a lot too. My trainer has assigned me routines anywhere from 5-8 intervals, typically with even more recovery time--sometimes up to four minutes. (Again, he says that in theory you should need all the time--for that routine in particular. If I recover sooner, I didn't work hard enough.)

    I'm also ONLY doing HIIT with heavy lifting. I've been told that regular cardio is for competing goals and would just hinder things--again, in my case. I'm not saying this is true for everyone/everyone's goals.

    That sounds more like a bodybuilding, or figurework, type of plan with the protracted rest intervals and the avoidance of work on the aerobic base. Certainly not an approach suitable for someone on an extreme defecit and a restrictive menu.

    HIIT only addresses VO2Max, so an exclusive programme would be contraindicated. The calorie consumption is lower than desired, given the aggressive dietary objectives.
  • Shaselai
    Shaselai Posts: 151
    so here's my confusion then -
    1. if HIIT works best at ~90% HR then if i am there during that time regardless whether i want to vomit or have any energy left after that interval aren't i doint something right?
    2. i saw many different workouts and the main theme is mostly:
    a. 20-30mins
    b. increase resistance/incline on "sprints" if machine
    c. 20-30sec of "sprint" then up to 2 minutes rest.

    I felt the rest was too much but i didnt dare rest for 10 sec like the tabata method so i opted for 40 secs.

    I guess my question is - should i focus on INTERVALS or/and LENGTH? Tabata i linked has 24 intervals but only 8 minutes of "sprint". the one i used last night is 20 minutes total, 14 cycles but only 4.6 minutes of "sprint". I could certainly decrease intervals and increase the length of the sprint and rest if it is more ideal?
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    1. if HIIT works best at ~90% HR then if i am there during that time regardless whether i want to vomit or have any energy left after that interval aren't i doint something right?

    I think you need to stop obsessing over the numbers and actually think about the effort you're putting in. High Intensity is the key point, and that means the maximum effort that you can put in, regardless of your HR. The whole idea of Max Heart Rate and arbitrary zones based on a gross approximation is pretty outdated. Working at 90-95% MHR is only meaningful if you've actually had the relevant tests to determine your VO2Max and lactate threshold, calculating the zones based on that.
    2. i saw many different workouts and the main theme is mostly:
    a. 20-30mins
    b. increase resistance/incline on "sprints" if machine
    c. 20-30sec of "sprint" then up to 2 minutes rest.

    This is the Interval Training part, essentially periods of high intensity with periods of lower intensity. Bodybuilders and power lifters will have long rest periods at low intensity, so going from maximum effort to walking, a cyclist interested in developing explosive power will have shorter rest periods at a moderate intensity.

    For a general purpose session 20-30 seconds of max effort with up to 60 seconds lower intensity is fair. A longer period of lower intensity gives diminishing returns.

    The amount of rest you take gives you a basis for the next period of effort, so longer rest periods at lower intensities should allow similar levels of effort in the higher intensity periods. For a general purpose session your rest periods needn't be that long but you'd need to recognise that your later intervals aren't going to be as intense as the earlier.
    I guess my question is - should i focus on INTERVALS or/and LENGTH?

    Focus on intensity.

    If you're not putting the effort in, you're not realising the benefits.
  • Shaselai
    Shaselai Posts: 151
    I will try out 30 seconds intensity then 1minute rest X 9 with 3minwarm/cool and see how it goes....
    As for intensity i tried my hardest on the eliptical to the point the machine was shaking when i was trying to step up to it. I will try to increase the resistance even further this time and see how it goes.

    So if HR is not a good indicator what is or i really have to"feel it (cant take anotherstride etc.)" whether it is or not? thanks! As for ellipticals i did read 120rpm is good for HIIT but that is not very good indicator either?

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