Methodology in diet

SideSteel · May 2014

So I really wanted to take a lot of time to construct a well thought out post about the pros and cons to various dieting methods but this isn't very well-thought-out as I'm in a hurry at the moment...

Over the past few years, my stance on things has changed significantly and I don't think my current viewpoint will bring much applause given the population I'm delivering this to (people who count calories).

Generally speaking, I think counting intake is a great method for a lot of people. I also think most people should do it at least short term with a food scale to get them acclimated to estimation and what constitutes a reasonable energy intake.

I also think people who desire a great deal of leanness, such as a physique athlete, may need to count meticulously for accuracy purposes.

But, I think there's a cost associated with it. Usually it's time investment that people bring up but I think there are other issues or concerns that can arise such as becoming too fixated on the numbers, perhaps seeing that slice of pizza as 420c, 50c/18f/20p instead of seeing it as a slice of pizza.

To be clear, I don't think this happens to everyone, and for those who don't have issues with tracking, it's probably going to be an excellent method if not the best method given that nothing negative arises from it, or the negatives are things that can be dealt with.

Ultimately, since I fundamentally believe in context being important, I'm claiming that there are people who just aren't going to thrive on a calorie counting model. And that's not a statement about the flaws of calorie counting (energy balance is fundamentally important), it's just a matter of there not being a universally successful method of dieting that is going to match up to each individual.

Just like low carb dieting is going to be a reasonable choice for some people and just awful for others.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've made a few posts on my wall, on our facebook fitness page, and in discussions with people in the industry just because this is a topic where my views have changed. What prompted me to post this was a reply that I am going to quote below. I'm quoting it here because it apparently brought a lot of disagreement and I'd like to hear why, but I'll do that in my thread instead of the one it was in because people thought it was derailing the topic.

I have more to say about this but I have to leave soon. If you'd like to add your thoughts to my post above, or to this quote below, please feel free to do so. Thanks.

EDIT: Hopefully I'm clear in that my over-arching point here is that context STILL MATTERS with dieting methodology. While I am a fan of calorie and macronutrient tracking, I am claiming in this thread that it is not the ultimate method because claiming it as such neglects individual contexts.

Eh, I don't know. Calorie Counting has some pretty obvious advantages. Assuming a lack of complicating factors (e.g. metabolic disorders) along with consistent and relatively accurate logging, counting calories has a very strong rational appeal. Problem >> Data >> Math >> Solution. Fairly simple. Note that the complication factors don't negate an approach centered around looking at the energy balance of a system; it just makes it less simple.

What's simple isn't always what's easy, though. For instance, I could:

-get burned out on counting calories because I have enough other stuff going in my day-to-day.
-become obsessive about tiny inaccuracies.
-End up feeling weird about a natural process (Hunger >> eat) being dictated by a more analytical approach.

All of that is about how someone "feels" which can end up being incompatible with calorie counting. That kind of stress doesn't always have an on/off switch. There is some appeal to following a set of guidelines that isn't based on calories. Obviously it works the same way. To lose weight, you're burning more than you take in. But if I am burned out on counting calories, and I'm left with following hunger signals and satiety as a means of helping me lose weight, then "food quality" becomes more important for reasons apart from overall health, getting my micros, and getting enough fiber.

In no way am I a clean eater just for my own personal ideology. I love my processed foods. But, in my experience, the more highly processed foods that I enjoy also tend to be more energy-dense and less satiating per calorie. For those reasons, if I need a calorie counting break, I kind of have to eat more clean to both stay in a deficit and not feel starved.

Sometimes my inner geek is jazzed by the fact that I scan something, weigh something, track it, and even plot out calories over time. And sometimes there's enough other crap going on in my life that I need to leave the lab coat in the office, so to speak, and not put that much thought into whether I can work the math in some way to fit a brownie into my day; it's easier to just to say that for the a few weeks, I'll stick to an apple instead of a brownie just because I know the apple will fill me up faster on a calorie-per-calorie basis.

That part of it is all personal preference, but personal preference is a pretty major factor. For that reason, I would have trouble telling any individual that calorie counting is best without first having a conversation with them about their life and their eating habits.

SunofaBeach14 · May 2014

Another solid post. It' s a very useful tool to have in your toolbox but it's not the only one. I'd personally go batty if I counted all the time.

EvanKeel · May 2014

I'll add to the above by saying I think there may be a philosophical disconnect that happens. When a weight loss method doesn't work, do we blame the system or do we blame the person? For the record I think it's a false question. Because calorie counting is driven by empirical data it's very tempting to blame the person for whom it doesn't work, but that's not always useful.

If a weight loss system doesn't work for someone, we shouldn't necessarily assume that the person is broken because the weight loss method is sacrosanct. It's possible that the person may have run out of possible methods for losing weight, and really just needs to take a long hard look in the mirror....or something else could be going on that would indicate that another method would be more suitable. It doesn't devalue the first method overall, just for that context.

EDIT: removed quoted material as being a bit superfluous.

SideSteel · May 2014

I'll add to the above by saying I think there may be a philosophical disconnect that happens. When a weight loss method doesn't work, do we blame the system or do we blame the person? For the record I think it's a false question. Because calorie counting is driven by empirical data it's very tempting to blame the person for whom it doesn't work, but that's not always useful.

If a weight loss system doesn't work for someone, we shouldn't necessarily assume that the person is broken because the weight loss method is sacrosanct. It's possible that the person may have run out of possible methods for losing weight, and really just needs to take a long hard look in the mirror....or something else could be going on that would indicate that another method would be more suitable. It doesn't devalue the first method overall, just for that context.

EDIT: removed quoted material as being a bit superfluous.

Good thoughts. I'm going to think about the above.

Linnaea27 · May 2014

I think calorie counting is an excellent learning tool that some of us need for a while, or maybe forever for some. I personally think that once one is thoroughly used to the amounts of foods one can eat to maintain their weight, it is safe to stop counting. After a while, you get so used to the quantities of the foods you eat regularly that you can safely estimate and stay on track; of course this approach requires monitoring one's weight regularly and adjusting eating and exercise accordingly. However, I'm speaking as a person who's always been really good at accurate estimation, and I think that personally, I'll switch to estimation without counting calories on here, or anywhere else but casually in my head, once I've been maintaining with the help of MFP for a few months. That should be plenty of time for me to learn an appropriate maintenance eating level.

I agree with the statement in that quote about feeling weird over analyzing food all the time. I had a lot of trouble with this when I first started using MFP-- it felt so unnatural that I started feeling like I might be getting an eating disorder from using the site! I took a few days off, which cooled that weird mindset off some, and logged what I'd eaten a couple of the days when I didn't come on here-- I had actually done very well in estimating how much I should be eating. Now, the mindset thing doesn't bother me as MFP has become part of my routine; plus I just started maintenance and I'm not yet accustomed to eating this much, especially with all the exercise I do!

I might have more to contribute later but it's 6 pm and I'm still at work-- should go home now!

SapiensPisces · May 2014

The deficit is fundamental to weight loss, but I think a lot of people confuse that with counting especially on here as the two are almost synonymous in some circles.

I'm with you on context though.

acpgee · May 2014

Have a think about the incredible popularity (especially in the UK) of another method of building in a deficit. Namely 5:2 intermittent fasting. For a lot of people the appeal is not having to count most of the time.

CallMeCupcakeDammit · May 2014

I'm just tagging for now. Gotta get to the gym.

jofjltncb6 · May 2014

...and I'm in here too.

ihad · May 2014

Bump to come back to.

3dogsrunning · May 2014

In

Sarauk2sf · May 2014

We have chatted about this before so I know you know I agree that calorie counting is not always the best approach for some people. There are many ways to skin a cat as they say (not sure who 'they are' though). Personal preference and context are probably the most, or at least one of the most important considerations as to the 'best' approach for many different aspects of nutrition, as well as training for that matter.

Personally, I usually calorie count when cutting as this approach works for me. It does not 'take over' nor is it really a chore. I like to be as accurate as possible so I can ensure that my diet is as effective as possible (including getting enough protein and being able to ignore water weight fluctuations as I know I am in a deficit). However, at times, and when I am maintaining, whether planned or just because I need a break), I often do not track as I feel I need a mental break, especially if I have a lot of things going on outside diet and nutrition. I maintained my weight for years without tracking (or only sporadically tracking) and it worked for me. That being said, my approach is personal to me - it works for me and it does not cause me to have an unhealthy relationship with food that it can do for some.

I would add however, that outside circumstances when counting calories can lead to negative behavioral issues, counting calories will generally tend to be the 'best' choice for the many, especially if results are not being seen without accurate tracking.

_Terrapin_ · May 2014

in. . .

psych101 · May 2014

In to read and ponder later

JTick · May 2014

I like your post.

For me, calorie counting is king. I thrive on numbers, I thrive on data. But it doesn't take over my life. I love to look at numbers on a great macro day, calculate the percentages, calculate expected results. But then when the scale doesn't play along, it's just another layer for me to analyze and see what I should change. I'm okay with that, it keeps my brain busy. It also allows me a certain amount of freedom in that I no longer feel guilty for eating something deemed bad. If the numbers line up, it's okay to eat that cookie.

I can easily see though how it can be overwhelming for some people. The level of data I love, might push others to the brink of insanity. I do think that people who have not had success with other "diets" would benefit from counting even for a little bit to understand what they are really eating.

MyChocolateDiet · May 2014

I think I've said before that I've used some of those other methods in that past and had success. Also on my wall that I'm cal counting now but don't expect to need it for maintenance since I haven't in the past.

I like your post.

There is I beleive room for different methods in different contexts and different times in one's life. For me personally right now cal counting is perfect b/c I want to learn serving sizes and I want to understand macro's and micro's eventually as I age in an effort to get adequate nutrition. I started caring about this a lot while pregnant and nursing and subsequently with anemia. Also when I recently gave up caffeine I was told to do so in such a meticulous tracking method that made me feel able to finally handle something so detailed as cal counting so for now I feel it gives me great control over various aspects of my diet and health goals.

I am in total agreement that there are other valid ways and that context is important in choosing.

snowflake954 · May 2014

Bump. However, will say that I think counting is very useful at least until maintenance has been established. Too many people gain the weight back. It's a shame that there isn't a way to get the numbers.

Unknown · May 2014

This content has been removed.

alevelali27 · May 2014

I think that calorie counting works great as a kind of biofeedback method for gaining a better understanding of how much energy your body actually needs and how much energy you're getting from your food... It really makes you appreciate your nutrient dense foods a lot more, and can lead to a healthier lifestyle in general.

Once the science is well established (like it is for balancing your caloric input/output), then I think a physiologically-sound method is only as good as its compliance. This one has a very high compliance because it's so easy to just use the app/website and track your nutrition through there. However, I really think that people that are relying on the exercise calories being "subtracted" from their food calories as a way to be able to eat more are kind of fooling themselves... Calorie expenditure from exercise is really just a rough estimate and could be misused in that way, imo

jim180155 · May 2014

In, but I'll have to come back later.

Otterluv · May 2014

We have chatted about this before so I know you know I agree that calorie counting is not always the best approach for some people. There are many ways to skin a cat as they say (not sure who 'they are' though). Personal preference and context are probably the most, or at least one of the most important considerations as to the 'best' approach for many different aspects of nutrition, as well as training for that matter.

Personally, I usually calorie count when cutting as this approach works for me. It does not 'take over' nor is it really a chore. I like to be as accurate as possible so I can ensure that my diet is as effective as possible (including getting enough protein and being able to ignore water weight fluctuations as I know I am in a deficit). However, at times, and when I am maintaining, whether planned or just because I need a break), I often do not track as I feel I need a mental break, especially if I have a lot of things going on outside diet and nutrition. I maintained my weight for years without tracking (or only sporadically tracking) and it worked for me. That being said, my approach is personal to me - it works for me and it does not cause me to have an unhealthy relationship with food that it can do for some.

I would add however, that outside circumstances when counting calories can lead to negative behavioral issues, counting calories will generally tend to be the 'best' choice for the many, especially if results are not being seen without accurate tracking.

I agree. It's what works for me, and pre-planning my calories lets me not think about it. Additionally, I know myself very well. If I were to stop counting and start winging it, my portions would grow, I'd miscount the donuts and the cookies, etc. As someone who was once VERY obese, hunger cues just don't work and I will overeat and gain weight. I think that given the amount of time involved in losing a lot of weight, doing something that is sustainable is important. For me, that's counting calories. I don't like setting myself up for failure, and denying my own tendencies to underestimate my calories/intake, giving up calorie counting would be a major problem.

My husband is going to try to lose 10 lbs or so once he can bring exercise back into his daily routine. I'm not going to recommend that he count calories, knowing his personality. But, I will be mindful about what I cook. In addition, if he simply started getting drip coffee instead of his super sweet whatever the hell it is coffee concoction, cut back on his sweets, and increase his activity level a smidge for a few months, he'd have those 10 lbs. gone and can go back to life as it was (unless of course the scale moves back up). If it looks like it's not working, then maybe he'll need to count calories.

sparklefrogz · May 2014

counting calories will generally tend to be the 'best' choice for the many, especially if results are not being seen without accurate tracking.

Results and tracking really are key, and I think they should be kept as simple as possible. For the first two years of my journey, I saw results via a method that did not involve counting calories, using a food or bathroom scale, or even consistent exercise. I just changed my diet and did a bit of mindfulness practice while eating. Calorie counting was not sustainable for me during that time period. Having some solid rules of thumb for "eat this, not that, and if you slip up, oh well, just get back on track the next time you eat" was. I needed to work through emotional eating, hunger/fullness signals, and a whole bunch of crazy stressful life things that were happening at the time.

After two years my life had changed -- I was not as busy or stressed, but I had stopped seeing weight loss progress, so I increased my results tracking by buying a scale and taking measurements. They confirmed the lack of progress, which led to me looking into consistent food logging and regular resistance exercise. I now have a month's worth of data with which to make more targeted decisions about what actions I want to take to achieve my goals.

The ultimate need for weight loss is to create a reasonable deficit and keep the weight off sustainably. There are many methodologies people can use to do that. Which one works best for them (i.e. is sustainable) is going to be determined by what appeals to their personality, what is feasible in their current life circumstances, and their own personal preferences and prejudices.

ILiftHeavyAcrylics · May 2014

We have chatted about this before so I know you know I agree that calorie counting is not always the best approach for some people. There are many ways to skin a cat as they say (not sure who 'they are' though). Personal preference and context are probably the most, or at least one of the most important considerations as to the 'best' approach for many different aspects of nutrition, as well as training for that matter.

Personally, I usually calorie count when cutting as this approach works for me. It does not 'take over' nor is it really a chore. I like to be as accurate as possible so I can ensure that my diet is as effective as possible (including getting enough protein and being able to ignore water weight fluctuations as I know I am in a deficit). However, at times, and when I am maintaining, whether planned or just because I need a break), I often do not track as I feel I need a mental break, especially if I have a lot of things going on outside diet and nutrition. I maintained my weight for years without tracking (or only sporadically tracking) and it worked for me. That being said, my approach is personal to me - it works for me and it does not cause me to have an unhealthy relationship with food that it can do for some.

I would add however, that outside circumstances when counting calories can lead to negative behavioral issues, counting calories will generally tend to be the 'best' choice for the many, especially if results are not being seen without accurate tracking.

This is pretty much where I am too. I usually track when I'm maintaining but not with as much accuracy. I don't find counting to be a chore.

My husband finds calorie counting to be tedious and he spends half of his time on a submarine with little control over his food. For him, exercising and learning moderation and estimation are a better strategy. But while he's home he logs/weighs in order to keep his estimation skills sharp and so that he will be on the lower end of his preferred weight range before he goes back underway.

Sabine_Stroehm · May 2014

GREAT post side steel. Thanks.

RaspberryKeytoneBoondoggle · May 2014

It's such a mind game isn't it? I have been counting calories for two years now and have successfully lost weight and maintained. I have tried 2 other methods in the past and they have worked also (low fat, 30 minutes of daily high intensity cardio, and 5 - 6 "clean" meals a day, higher protein, lifting 3x a week and HIIT) but within three to five years, I slowly morphed back to my old habits and gained the weight back. I'm at about the two year mark now. I basically just track and lately, I have been over eating most days. I have averaged about 200 - 400 calories a day over TDEE and while I haven't gained significantly yet, it's just a matter of time if I keep this up. I guess only time will tell if this is the plan that works for me.

Btw. I am starting to focus on eating an extra salad or vegetable a few times a week and going to bed earlier to help with TDEE adherence. I have also been consciously increasing my NEAT to avoid weight gain, just based on who I am and what I know about me.

The way we tweak counting calories to make it work for us, and the methods we use, has to vary from person to person. I think the key to a successful plan is being able to separate emotional thinking from a rational understanding of who we are. It is far easier to be successful if we *know* ourselves, can come up with our own goals, and be patient. Unfortunately, feelings about body image, eating, dieting and self-esteem are very difficult to untangle.

I think it's the trainer's job to get an objective picture of the client and have a variety of different approaches in their back pocket that they think will be effective with a particular client. I believe that a trainer who can tease the best method out of the client by asking intentional questions that lead to client based solution would be more effective than just prescribing a diet and program they they think best. Then, the main and most valuable work the trainer can do is: help with patience and adherence, build relationship, and share expertise.

Elleinnz · May 2014

Awesome post - counting worked really well for me for a long time (2 years plus) I loved the numbers and feedback, but got to a point in my life that I did not want to keep thinking about food as numbers.

I have been " not counting" for more than a year now - but I could do that because I have a fundamental understanding of the numbers after years of tracking everything - I eat natural (very little processed / packaged) - and most of the time pretty standard meals - so I still understand my macros, and calorie intake even though I don't track....

Agree with Sara - when I need to cut I will track for a while to understand the impact of my "changing" numbers....

I have tried to help quite a few people that seems to really struggle getting their head around counting / tracking everything..... Some manage to get their head around the concept - others just give up....

There are definitely people that respond much better to methodologies that prescribes " protein as big as your palm, one cup of carbs, fat as big as your thumb and two cups of vegetables...." as a guideline . For those wanting to react to this - I am just using it as an example - not saying it is a true eating plan!!!

MelodyandBarbells · May 2014

I just want to know, is Sexypants being recalled?

Personally in my dealings with people on this site, I assume they have chosen a calorie counting approach and so the conversations are usually about how to do it successfully. No, I do not believe calorie counting is the only way to lose weight. In fact, most of us probably lost a good bit of weight before calorie counting

robinaddison · May 2014

In for later

jrose1982 · May 2014

I agree 100%. And I really appreciate you putting this into a separate thread so to not derail another discussion. We all need to remember to do it that way (myself included). Thank you for leading by example.

I'm a nerd too, I love tracking stuff. But I've learned over the years that various systems of my body exist to protect me and tell me how to live (like instinct). And I want to refine these systems, not forgo them in place of logging every little thing. Modern science and technology is wonderful, until it fails and you've forgotten how to live without it.

That's part of what appeals to me about paleo diets. Modern processed foods are designed to make you want more. I've seen in my own experience how these foods can trick my appetite. Eating real food is more satisfying, so I don't have to eat so much and I'm much less likely to overeat.

But I also know myself well enough to realize I probably can't maintain a deficit for more than a couple days if I'm not tracking. I just hope that I'll be able to do it once I reach maintenance.

FoxyLifter · May 2014

Great post! :drinker:

PinkNinjaLaura · May 2014

I think I've tried all the plans, including previous attempts at calorie counting. This time around, it finally clicked for me. But this is also the first time I've tracked calories eaten and calories burned. I eat TDEE, but still seeing the data for calories in / calories out helped the pieces fall into place in my brain. (No the 20 minute walk I took after dinner didn't actually burn off the 3 pieces of pizza I just ate.) Even though I don't "eat back" my exercise calories, tracking them helps me be mindful of the choices I make - heck yeah this cookie is worth the 4 mile run it would take to burn it off. I won't necessarily go run 4 miles if I eat the cookie, but when I'm deciding whether or not it's worth the calories at least I made an informed decision. My goal is to eventually not have to track & to be able to eat intuitively. I'm not there yet, but I'm closer than I was when I started.

Methodology in diet

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