Goal: Gaining muscle while losing fat

Making_changes7 · June 2014

Hey guys!

I have been on this site for a while now and lost a decent amount of weight. I'm at the point where I keep gaining fat, and I know why- I can't stop eating crap food. I want to lose about 10 lbs of fat, but at the same time gain a significant amount of muscle. I have done research online and a lot of what I've read includes cardio and weight training intermingled in the same day, and I don't want to do that.

My question: does anyone have a program that splits days where you do cardio X number of days per week, and weight training X number of days per week? I think I'm dedicated enough to follow some sort of program, and I'd like your insight into the type of program you do to lose fat while still building muscle. I know the scale will vary as I gain muscle, but overall I need to get rid of the excess fat I've gained. But I've also lost muscle

Thanks!

tziol · June 2014

It's generally difficult to do those two things at the same time. I would suggest to first keep doing reduction without worrying too much about losing muscles, then if you will get to the point you will be satisfied with a percentage level of fat, then start to bulk up in a way that would not flood your body too much with fat (add aerobic exercises 2-3 days a week at this stage).

geebusuk · June 2014

You will likely get to where you want to be much quicker by losing fat first, then gaining muscle.

How much protein are you eating?
How much weight were you gaining a week when you found yourself gaining too much fat?
What weights were/are you doing?

Like me, you "want it all" - to improve strength, cardio performance and lose weight.
Unfortunately the reality doesn't really work that way.

It took me about 6 months to lose 40lb, and now (today) get to beating my previous best squat 5rm (20 weeks to lose the weight, then another 6 bringing my calories back up and right now have pretty consistent progress with squats at least - though suspect it won't last TOO much longer with calculated 1RM and over double body weight. If I had gone for a slower weight loss, or a 're-composition', I'd probably be a fair bit off my where I am now.
What I found did work for me was to improve cardio while losing weight - this hurt my strength further, but I've fairly quickly got that back again and in the mean time completed a 32 mile trail ultramarathon.

Making_changes7 · June 2014

I thought it might be too good to be true :P

Here are my thoughts- full body weight training 3 times per week and some form of cardio 4 times per week. And maybe on my weight training days I will eat slightly above my maintenance calories (and LOTS of protein!), and on the cardio days I will eat just below maintenance.

Would that be a good idea?

jjplato · June 2014

I thought it might be too good to be true :P

Here are my thoughts- full body weight training 3 times per week and some form of cardio 4 times per week. And maybe on my weight training days I will eat slightly above my maintenance calories (and LOTS of protein!), and on the cardio days I will eat just below maintenance.

Would that be a good idea?

You're doing something very similar to what I do - except that I do carb cycling as well. So, on my lifting days I have a moderate caloric surplus, heavy on carbs. On my alternate days, light cardio (20-30 min), and eat at a slight caloric deficit, light on carbs. Heavy on protein (~1.3-1.5g per lb of body weight) on all days. I'm not trying to add significant bulk, nor am I trying to lose much body fat, more like fine-tuning, so it works for me.

43mmmgoody21 · June 2014

If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one

jjplato · June 2014

If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one

If you chase one rabbit, you won't catch it, either. But shooting two rabbits is do-able.

vs_shine · June 2014

Elmer Fudd would disagree.

nah, i agree. lose the fat, then focus on the muscle! lean proteins all the way!

Join BJ Penn gym and get a personal trainer! (in a perfect world!)

geebusuk · June 2014

I too follow a 'lean gains' style system where I eat 1000 calories more on workout days than on 'rest' days all while eating in a 8 hour 'window'. It has 'worked for me', but I'm not sure it's provided better results than eating the same amount of food each day over more hours.

I would note that no study I've seen has shown any benefits (unless taking lots steroids, anyway) from over 1g/lb of body weight, or more accurately, .8g/lb of lean bodyweight. And these tend to be upper bounds which have had an extra 10% or whatever already added 'just in case' your body happens to need a bit more.

When mixing cardio with weights I've tried various options - generally found doing them on the same day seperated by a good number of hours and decent bit of food seems to work best for me as far as weight lifting performance goes - see what works best for you.

Eating just above and just below your TDEE still isn't going to see as fast results as overall having a proper weekly deficit (ie -500kc a day for 1lb/week loss), then going to eating more in a 'bulk' - with the latter while you may lose a bit of strength, you'll then gain it back quicker and be nearer to where you want to be sooner.

tziol · June 2014

If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one

If you chase one rabbit, you won't catch it, either. But shooting two rabbits is do-able.

You will not shoot two rabbits if don't know how to shoot.....If you're fast enough you will catch one rabbit or even two :-D

PinkyFett · June 2014

Elmer Fudd would disagree.

nah, i agree. lose the fat, then focus on the muscle! lean proteins all the way!

Join BJ Penn gym and get a personal trainer! (in a perfect world!)

But he didn't catch Bugs

43mmmgoody21 · June 2014

Elmer Fudd would disagree.

nah, i agree. lose the fat, then focus on the muscle! lean proteins all the way!

Join BJ Penn gym and get a personal trainer! (in a perfect world!)

But Elmer Fudd couldn't even catch one rabbit

You can lose a lot of fat and MAYBE gain a bit of muscle (or maintain current muscle) or you can gain a lot of muscle (relatively speaking) while gaining a reasonable amount of fat. But what you never see is someone gaining a lot of muscle while at the same time losing a lot of fat (even on a recomp)

chrisdavey · June 2014

If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one

If you chase one rabbit, you won't catch it, either. But shooting two rabbits is do-able.

:laugh:

OP: cut first if you have excess fat. Keep lifting consistently, keep cal deficit and adequate protein.

The only time you can gain muscle and lose fat is:
A: noob gains
B: muscle memory
C: drugs

If these don't apply to you then just cut first and if you are unhappy with LBM at lower weight, then go into a gaining phase.

ninerbuff · June 2014

Lots of good info from people here I respect.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Lil_Northern_Light · June 2014

I'm trying also to gain more muscule and lose stubborn chubs. Just started a 6 week weight-training program my husband set-up for me (he used to be a personal trainer and Kinesiology Major), going onto my 3rd week starting tomorrow. It involves a 4X a week weight lifting and 1X cardio.

Don't know whether its true or not, but he stated that cardio is great for indurance, but it does break down muscle tone

. I love running (cross country, but saw little results), so he suggested I start using weights. I shied away from them because I was afriad to "bulk" up but suppose that's not the case. Eating healthy is also key.

Hope you find what helps

Mauthos · June 2014

If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one

If you chase one rabbit, you won't catch it, either. But shooting two rabbits is do-able.

:laugh:

OP: cut first if you have excess fat. Keep lifting consistently, keep cal deficit and adequate protein.

The only time you can gain muscle and lose fat is:
A: noob gains
B: muscle memory
C: drugs

If these don't apply to you then just cut first and if you are unhappy with LBM at lower weight, then go into a gaining phase.

In a strange way this is why I suppose I am lucky as I am gaining a good amount of muscle whilst losing weight, but as stated here this is mainly down to B & C for me.

I used to weight train alot when I was still in the military and due to muscle memory I have gained a lot of what I orignally lost whilst actually losing a good deal of weight. Plus, according to my doctor the medication I am on for my diabetes can help you gain either fat if you do nothing or muscle if you weight train. So definitely agree here, but does mean I am lucky as losing weight and gaining muscle is possible for me, but it is still a relatively slow process. On a side note though, it does mean if I stop the weight training I have a good chance of easily gaining back all the fat I lost.

CrusaderSam · June 2014

Does anyone think you need to gain fat to heal a burn or a cut? Can your body heal while losing fat? Can you only recover from an injury and lose weight if you are a noob to healing? Have any of you taken a a biology class or do you feel a cert that can be gotten in 6 weeks is better then a PHD? All this answered and more coming right up!

From what I have found, prostaglandins are a group of hormone-like lipid compounds that are derived enzymatically from fatty acids and have important functions in the animal body. Every prostaglandin contains 20 carbon atoms, including a 5-carbon ring. They are part of the inflammatory response (caused by training or injury) and are responsible for cell functions, such as regulate hormones, and control cell growth. So by their release, your body can use fat while causing muscle hypertrophy.

Prostaglandins are made from essential fatty acids, and why they are often marketed as an anabolic bodybuilding supplement in a variety of products (such as cla). So at least now you know why that stuff is sitting on the shelf of your local gnc but it is easy enough to get them in your diet by eating fats, especially fish, flax seed and nuts.

chrisdavey · June 2014

Let me clarify, you are not going to gain a statistically significant amount of LBM while cutting except for the conditions above.

If you try to do both, you will end up spinning your wheels and getting no where.

bmele0 · June 2014

Following this thread.

I have a question, maybe I don't want to bulk up or anything, but what about becoming leaner- just toning my body while I lose weight? I believe even toning and not bulking still means gaining muscle.

I have incorporated mild strength-training into my weekly exercise, 2-3 times a week and do cardio the rest of the week. Sometimes I do the cardio-strength combos using light weights, resistance, etc.

I still have a good 60-70 lbs to lose, is it not worth it to me at this point to do strength-training? I have read this can help with excess skin, problem areas.

navyrigger46 · June 2014

I thought it might be too good to be true :P

Here are my thoughts- full body weight training 3 times per week and some form of cardio 4 times per week. And maybe on my weight training days I will eat slightly above my maintenance calories (and LOTS of protein!), and on the cardio days I will eat just below maintenance.

Would that be a good idea?

No, that won't do much for you. You need to pick one and go nuts, you simply can't do both at the same time, gaining muscle requires a surplus, and losing fat requires a deficit, interchanging them on a daily basis will do nothing.

Rigger

43mmmgoody21 · June 2014

Following this thread.

I have a question, maybe I don't want to bulk up or anything, but what about becoming leaner- just toning my body while I lose weight? I believe even toning and not bulking still means gaining muscle.

Building muscle is not easy to do (even when bulking up as a man). Muscle building is painfully slow (as compared to fatloss). As you will be in a calorie deficit while losing weight, it is doubtful you will build much muscle.

And yes to tone up you need to build muscle (or at least keep the muscle you have hidden under the fat).

I have incorporated mild strength-training into my weekly exercise, 2-3 times a week and do cardio the rest of the week. Sometimes I do the cardio-strength combos using light weights, resistance, etc.

I still have a good 60-70 lbs to lose, is it not worth it to me at this point to do strength-training? I have read this can help with excess skin, problem areas.

You definitely want to include strength training while losing weight. It will help you keep the muscle you do have. I have heard that if fatloss is slow and steady (i.e. 1-2 pounds a week lost) that the skin (as long as not that excessive) will tighten up. Especially once fatloss is done and you are ready to muscle/bulk up.

kdiamond · June 2014

I think if you clean up your diet (and by clean up I really just mean watching calories), eat at maintenance and lift heavy, you'll achieve your goals. Recomp is slow but it can be done if you're disciplined. It really doesn't matter how you split up your weight training but 3-4x a week is good. Do less cardio, or do HIIT a couple of times a week instead.

Cortelli · June 2014

I would note that no study I've seen has shown any benefits (unless taking lots steroids, anyway) from over 1g/lb of body weight, or more accurately, .8g/lb of lean bodyweight. And these tend to be upper bounds which have had an extra 10% or whatever already added 'just in case' your body happens to need a bit more.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1158604-eric-helms-protein-research

The study that Sarauk2sf describes in detail above (link in the thread) suggests that - while cutting - resistance trained athletes appear to optimize lean body mass retention with between 1.1g and 1.4g of protein per lb of LBM, scaling to the higher end with leanness and/or greater caloric deficit. I like this study because it reviews existing, available studies for characteristics that are important to *me* in determining where my protein intake should fall: the review parameters include results that come from adult (≥ 18 yrs), energy-restricted, resistance-trained (> 6 months) humans of lower body fat (males ≤ 23% and females ≤ 35%) performing resistance training. Protein intake, fat free mass (FFM) and body fat had to be reported in these studies (so not just nitrogen balance, etc.). I'd be curious to see a study like this covering bulking as the conventional wisdom has it that less protein is fine when bulking.

geebusuk · June 2014

bmele0:
'Tone is merely the state of having some but not big muscle (it's very hard for women to get big muscles without having lots of testosterone) and low fat to be able to see it.
The good news is (if it can be thought like that), is that having a good bit of extra weight you probably have above average muscle from that - making sure you use it and eat adequate protein will help ensure you lose as low a proportion of it as possible.
The best time, as it goes, to start weight training is always 'now'

...
Then, when you get to a lower fat level, if you want to gain more muscle to show some 'tone', you're in a better position.

Does anyone think you need to gain fat to heal a burn or a cut?

Does anyone think that evolution would have createdf a system where healing an injury requires the same features that adding calorie-burning mass does?
As it goes, a friend is currently eating at a decent deficit and hurt his leg - not from doing anything specific. He's been limiting the use of it, but it's not been healing - getting worse if anything. I don't know the details, but I do suspect that in this case the body doesn't have the resources available to a decent job on the injury.

Prostaglandins are made from essential fatty acids, and why they are often marketed as an anabolic bodybuilding supplement in a variety of products (such as cla). So at least now you know why that stuff is sitting on the shelf of your local gnc but it is easy enough to get them in your diet by eating fats, especially fish, flax seed and nuts.
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Lil_Northern_Light · June 2014

i really like the top portion of your last reply @gee.

I'm actually really enjoying this workout, and yes trying hard to kept protein levels higher than I used to have - tough, and slow going . getting the toning done, still lots more work, but will continue with weights! :happy:

Goal: Gaining muscle while losing fat

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