Attractiveness and Weight - research & BMI

Uh. I was tracking with everything and had a grasp of where things were going ... Until ... Secondary sexual organ!?!?! I have never heard of this! How have womens kept that secret? Do I get acces like on our tenth anniversary or something??

Sorry, bad translation into English. The right word would be "secondary sex characteristics". I was not aware that the term was that misleading as to inspire several replies. Sorry for that

Silliness is all. I just didn't understand and realize (now) that the mammories would be considered such. I thought strictly in terms of genitals because even my inner scientist is a thirteen year old boy.

Long story short, I wasn't poking at you; was legitimately confused and mocking my own ignorance of the concept.

That's one of the things I love about men: The inner scientist of many of you is a thirteen year old boy.

Am I reading it wrong, or does typical preference for the non-fat -admirer male peak at the usual catwalk model BMI?

In that control group, yeah - seems problematic, wouldn't you think?

Female Olympic gymnasts are similar BMI. Quite fit. Solid musculature.

Am I reading it wrong, or does typical preference for the non-fat -admirer male peak at the usual catwalk model BMI?

In that control group, yeah - seems problematic, wouldn't you think?

Female Olympic gymnasts are similar BMI. Quite fit. Solid musculature.

It's true. Like everyone is saying...BMI alone is only one part of the equation. It's not so much a goal, as just one aspect of a medical description. But, when individually meeting with a doctor, you will be addressed individually based on many factors to evaluate your own health. Not everyone should be the same BMI. It looks very different on different bodies, height is not the only factor. Most doctors will look at you, your musculature, and bone structure, as well as personal history, family history, health and test results.

scatter plot of women :laugh:

is that like a gaggle of chicks?

:drinker:

my main concern about the charts is the high number of people in the healthy BMI range whose body fat percentage is above 30. There are only a few women who have a body fat percentage in the healthy range and a BMI above 25... there are no women with a BMI above 30 who have a healthy body fat percentage.... so for women a BMI above 30 = you need to lose fat. BMI 25-30 = the majority of women with this BMI need to lose fat, there are a few exceptions (large framed strength athletes I'd guess... and if more women did strength training then IMO that number would be higher, and there are more men in this category, probably due to a combination of more men being into strength based sports and men being able to gain lean mass more easily than women)... but having a BMI in the 18-25 "healthy" range does NOT mean that you don't need to lose fat/improve your body composition, there are a LOT of people with 30+ body fat percentage in the healthy BMI range ... IMO that's the biggest flaw of BMI. All the people who are lulled into a false sense of security that they're healthy because of their weight, when actually their body fat percentage is above 30 which means they're carrying too much fat.... and it's the fat you're carrying that's the health risk, not how heavy you are. BMI applied with common sense should stop strength athletes being told to lose weight when they don't need to..... however, how is it going to diagnose all the people who have more than 30% body fat in the healthy BMI range?

That said, the use of BMI in a study such as the one the OP posted is not a bad choice. When comparing populations and general trends, BMI is a good metric, as the existence of both large framed and small framed people in the population will average each other out. And this debate about BMI is totally missing the point... the study shows that different men have different preferences... some prefer larger women, others prefer more slender women.... that's what the study is showing... no-one's diagnosing any of the study participants with obesity or saying they have to lose weight or anything....

Lol, first apologies *again* to the OP because it was not my intent to derail to this extent on a topic that I do think bears repeating.

Neandermagnon actually hit the point I was most concerned about with the article I added, which was the probability of a large number of women thinking they're at a healthy body fat when they quite possibly aren't. Although I also have some concerns about the skew towards the healthy end of that chart. I'm thinking in particular of a someone on my FL. She has a history of ED and uses BMI as a marker to help her maintain a healthy weight. I have very little experience with ED so I'm usually not comfortable advising her, but this chart made me immediately think of her because there's real reason for concern that she should NOT depend on BMI to establish that her weight is ok.....

Don't apologize. I expected this thread to get derailed from the first post. Possibly into a variety of discussions from fat acceptance to fat admirers, etc... I was not expecting the humorous hit and run and "educational moment" but given that - please continue to derail. I love your discussion and do see something of value there.

I agree with what you are writing here. BMI as a single indicator of health, etc.. isn't valid.

Is you friend using having a normal range BMI as a justification of ok weight in the presence of other clinical issues or is she using it as a first goal to get back to a more normal weight range? As a simplified initial goal, something that can be measured and achieved - it might not be a bad idea. As the only indicator that "all is good" it's a gross simplification.

From what I can tell she is using it as her only indicator. She is keeping herself right at the border of 18.5 BMI and will specifically ask people not to "like" if she drops below that number. She hasn't specifically mentioned any physical indicators that her body fat levels are too low but she is definitely still struggling with issues of depression and binge eating. She mentioned a little while ago noticing that she had an easier time keeping herself mentally healthy when she is heavier and even mentioned that she thought maybe it had something to do with her fat levels, my concern is that this is exactly the problem and her fat levels are lower than she thinks.

Uh. I was tracking with everything and had a grasp of where things were going ... Until ... Secondary sexual organ!?!?! I have never heard of this! How have womens kept that secret? Do I get acces like on our tenth anniversary or something??

Sorry, bad translation into English. The right word would be "secondary sex characteristics". I was not aware that the term was that misleading as to inspire several replies. Sorry for that

Silliness is all. I just didn't understand and realize (now) that the mammories would be considered such. I thought strictly in terms of genitals because even my inner scientist is a thirteen year old boy.

Long story short, I wasn't poking at you; was legitimately confused and mocking my own ignorance of the concept.

I think we could move the discussion into attractiveness of hermaphrodite. Not sure the moderators would approve.
If we ever evolve into a self-pollinating hermaphrodite species (oh, look where your mind just went) males might still have a, albeit small, role.

Worms, lovely elegans, have < 1% males.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1462001/pdf/11901116.pdf

(My inner 13 year old likes worms too).

I prefer nudibranchs (it even has nudi in the name!).


ETA, those are snails, not worms, but marine flat worms are pretty cool too:
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IPlZGpoG/PZdmhvczr0nMzIsVxNd/wBu72ojkn52OV6cnR6bcYhIwgO+9aqre6sDYGjVGrHPuFDlZg8zZs4dj4x8PBAF6W3Yutr2HpXp6u1fJnv5oo/DDsbcG2C6+QxxOw5qmjb09dzSS7FVlhjH+QN3NUAL3cD2IGkC/kBtwrSXYtpMDvuSTp2rncknsTejb3rt8KceODJoWdSjGtpbpaCCAeA7v227gfL2CEYT/IOwkEFp2rQRZH5TQJPbcC/ckepVc0Y2r4LsaBu4cbBsuFNA0/Dub2/Vt7d91Lk7LVNFc2E0A0CKsEt+AXeiqv1sb+3JVKTFUQYwNN0Wu9Qew5u+Rzx/uBtDI0S4pm8eDsCTzTTQI2vY911RmmZyg1+gV07O0O2dRB9+3qtLtHPOClwU+LsZsjhkR1T/AIZgOWyDgn5rzdfgco717dk4ritkvbo5sNXjmxLy0AaLECNtCQBuK+kmA7xJFDJD46UMYQA1QykyiaEFItMV5GJunY7BZJkqLFs8i0SE2DmVXRNmNmRtFYxwMuipcRpnTYnU9uVk4mikRyM+01FlwW6SRz+bkl5HLfX0HyX0On0+NY0vd9nZNRitsfcadAb5kzWuN2SGmz+YUeb70U44YY5VFG2nxqHKO4j6ZbSAGtNBtfE4OsEOqiAN77pSgVkXwLOq6McAPt73mw2g0kDl3Gwux/y1m17BDE537IXt6kTVxjv+W+NVkn7+3b5KE+SZ4UumWxvbe/drtOrcaqsVwefvVD1W1cENUWyxhpDWgODi27IADR339dIr/wDJ37JpWyW7BMl4olxAHxH0ab2d2s7EbdgRzydFEzlOkKMzJBPAAFi/hJskFxHpdk/8KtYTjnO2Utcdtr7k87gHauwJv72q9Ix3Mujl3q2+44sbg167O+m6zljRW50ZLkkbezq78m9/kf8AmyccNESyADZ6OqgN7IrtX+/Ht2W3p8UTvLvNtt7XtRFj4dqHPb0903Bo1jk5LwGuAur3AdsDwKJP9d/4ojNoqUU+UawM3Q8seLb+VzCOWrbtGE4p9dmvEfS2NZHPC3/DeSyQtumyctJH7Ni/ax7r53U6eWLI/wDa+v8AA90ZJV2JGrnA0QgCNJiLIikxDzpwtQxMfQ4lhZism7FISGisxJUWaMIToDiJJFVGlgshVJCsHcrAwFAgmByQDCHIKlopM6vwZPAH3KwSvc4tpxAbHAG259dz2+i8zX+so/6bo9DQ44zb5+r2E/XDA6eR0DdMWqmDtp9fuvq/Eepk0qlk7OrVRUGl7+4P0vNEUjXBoOh16fUXuurJw7CElR6t4f6lBktJiPFa4yAHxuN7kd9zysm76CTvkReOcM/iInNr/FYY/YFpujfsf3FKrR0aeX+k79gP8Dobbtmgb2QHD0A9T9ro8crCmjlnkbYu5ANkaTtW1AAB3bfn32PtS3irVENtGzluANUXWSBW4G2w/wBNfIUt1EzbsDyPMeaJvd3Asnsf5LaGO+TGXFk4ukyOFlhNEjYEWDyQO/F/RbKKRi9pbj9GeRZFN06rJaA3jknhJpIxdN0i+bw5O2PzYx5kZ3Bb8Qc3vprk0Bxd0Vgs+Cc9ikt3xZElKPaYlkeDtse3sAfra3jjZN26JS4sYZqkc2Jp2bYLnv8AWmjc9vZGTJHEt0mOGJ5HUeQB7or+F7tNEEOYQ2/UU4+3ZcL8jhs6147NXCDcQOJG4cNqc0gi6siqsd/hPqtYbcq3QdmEt+N1NUEuww8DU3j9oEW3/KHXtv234K1jujwRujIP6Lk6CYpRqhnaWHa2ua5Vkxxyw2s5s+NrlexyvVMMwyvjcb0O+F36mHdrvtX1XzWWDhNxfsb45bo7gYKCjRQBph3QI6Ho7lLEzrsVwpRRBKVwSZSKCLUlGvKTGeZly0osrJTEb8u0ARdFSYGMQAXCkxjPDcGtfZouZpafmRY/cufPFuj0fGThHNcvjgDxHv1Ftbcm+y9bQa70IuLVpj18/rthrcQH1s8V6/zTzeQcnaVI4fUk+gjCfkYEzZQDrGxje0sL4jyCD9EsevwZenz+p2afFqO9rcWd907ruDmPhc55x5Yy/SyQFoLnM0uGrjgnuuqORSjwrO178cWq7M8ZYXlQl4AAeQ0uG4cw2RZA42G11dKZVIyg90jkceM72OSXcm6rY/K3FbYoP3JkXwwagXuIbE3YyO7bDYe/Oy7FUVcjJpt7V2WY3iDGjeNMUjwOXkgE37H+q5ZeQxN0mb/+rzTXLoJ/9at+IOxwQQQwhwsC+4I9K7pPV41y2yZ+GmlxIQdf62cl7atkTatliifU1zsuDX63dDZif7nVoNAsT+rlno/VfEbIJYYZYi/EyseMQuYAd+D9rZ97XwODTOcJZsc2ssJOzNYVNtf/AEmziPGTosTJkbG3XL8LrfWn4wHhx/zdiODz3X6L4jyzz6GOTJ93X8jyM2l+pNcJnPdExX5mUxr3f+48a3dmRDd1egDQV5XkdbJpzf7HqaXGscHJrhIZP8W6Xkw4fTg0OIYXQvcTECdN/HV1VmlxR0Vx+qcv5nny12Z9SDOqZUUkDM/FjZDI2UY+bjAf4LnVqaQP0uH2PuE9DnzaTUelKVrtP8fk6INavE4T7QyxsWHJp+O9vxN+OIkGRjrF2Bv9e/PdfbYs8MkVZ83kWXBNqQdH0jsQCDyKrfsQefkq49gea+zkfGgb5jCCCdBa6uQ5pHP3Xj+TjUoy92deBNROdC8w2MKYjGhADbAlpSxHQY2dspCgpuVaQUFR7pUUi0BAzyh5WoyLBZQIPhiSEanYEADNjTGHY8SQw1rEgsm0IE232MehTBmTC52zWzREk8AaxuufWRcsE1HumOD5R6H446a3Ix5Xhty4riWuHLmUC4fKnfuXx/i888OaEX1Lv9T6Tx+Z48sYSf0zR5dj6GubrFxEgSAfoPJHuF+laXLHC1XT7PR1WC4uu10d5/cT/wAK+BknnQSkS4hP/wBb7sNvuHWR8z7rtnGLVpHzkM6WTlc9Ffhzw4+drX7tBLN9waBaTXpuCDfp2QsqxlZsqjwhL12I5GY3Exy1sTZSxv6TKRb3H5fEPoV5fmNVLHi3PpK2eloMSxY3myBuZ/Z1O0EwyxTub+ZguNw+Vkj70vkdP5zHf1JpfJ14/J4JP6otfns5fq3TZoCGzRujcdwHdx6g8Fe3DWwyq4s608eSO7G7QspKUjFRaZ650PFDsLFfkM1vxQ6eJtW4tDXNaAP+pv2XyOfI1qMih1Phnl6iv4iSj78HkvVzNNPJJKHeZI8ucCNwT2r2FD6L6zT5IYsShBqkjWekbmq6Q/6XiuwcWXKkGmWZrsbEYdnF7xT5K9Gts/Rck5rVZo4ov6Vy3/wceuyxw4vTj2+zj2hexZ4VHQeEOpQtMuNlWMbNDGmS/wD487b0SfL4qP0Xn6/BOSjlx/dD+q+Dp02b0p37CfxB0uXEndG/Z8bqDm23UBw5p9CuvSapZcanFnXqMST3LpkcfreUNhPPR2PxuO1+59l3/wAVkS+45Y4cbfMS/qDHBsTnu1PlEkjrNu3fQLvnRK5Fmllk3J2aa5Ri4wS6QEHJnCWBAGwgRaySkgCY8kooBjh5JtTQzocOXZIAwlTY0eXOiWlgiyOGkrGTfLSaJKvMtMZdC1Aw+JqALUCMSZLMCkiz0XwT1+NzHRzva1xZodrNB9CmnfuRsfkvlPK6HJDIsmJXzfB7GHN6sI/7onm/UBoe9vZrnAe4BNfuX0eDNJwV/B9TmyJxTsv6X4mlhpll8Ni4nHbkH4T+yb3Xq4NZOPEuUeFqcWLJK1w/k9cxfFWPN07JlxHeVJAyQ6JKa5kz26hQsh1uLq9StIyU5p9o4I6eazwjPlNnlnS45XTxiEkSmVug9w/Vz/FR5XYtPKU+l2fVpQjCSl9tHR/2oZ4ZkwnHkMeTHG8ZD4SWOo6TG1xHP7Ro8X7r5DwmmcsU/VjcG/pTPjM+V3SfAsxvHAlYIepwjJiHE8dNnYfWuD8wR9V05PEbHv00tr+PY10uvnhe5MOPUOgwgSRibIe0gtj0yWT2vXTQuZabyWV7ZNJfJ2z8xka/wc71fxtlTTtmjccbymlkMcRsNjJBIdY+O6F2K2C9XB43Djw+lJbvlv5PIlmlKW6wiD+0HLbuWYsj/wBboqdfr8LgFlLwuB8JtL4s1Wty1W4S9b65PlvD8h+otGljWgNYxvcNaOP4rt0+lx6eO3GqRhKbk7YvpdBJFzPVMDt5On/3rjQFkzDlYsQhkjkIEklcOvvYHK8Le9DmknH6Ju1+D1sGTHkxbJPk5SfokkBvIboAJAaSA6Qg7ho9PfhenDOsvEAnGGD6m/0A8iUvNnnYD0AGwA9guiMVFUeXOcpy3S7ZBqokuaVIG0AYmBNpQAbiSUUgOl6bMCpYDpjLCmijzmGNDBFkrKCSGK53LVEkGFMA3HSYxhEpAmXJ2BDWkSybSggmgE6ZbjwxPcGzuMbDt5gBcWfQb0ubNCSW7GuT1dFr3jThk5iQ6r4Re0a8d7cuG61wnUWn0c3kFc+LXr7ci2y/J3LFjz845fsB4bpYS5r2HS8aXtLd6B2cPQjkL0cGrjGVp8HXihPG1a4Oz8B4cb8xpe9oMdviG4EjgDx6etfNV/5A1PQylD3/AJG2syzjgltVp9/gD/tEjP4+W26bERB/WPLA1e/BH0Xn+NmpaaCvpex8jk+44/KjXoIgBcUwMBTAmgDEAWNKQGygCPBBGxG4I2IPsUNXwwNzyvebe98hqtUjnPNeluNpRjGPEVQ22+yulQjYagCQSAxAEmhAFoYkBNuyAGnT8mikB1fT8mwkOzkYMdQ2JGZEGylMsS5EBtapksrENKgCIUmMMa5ICD3IEYwFAmXtQSXMCYiTggaK4c2WEkwyPiJ2JYS3UBxfr9VlkwwyKpqzWE3Hphb/ABPlmtUocR3dHCSfmdK5v4DAuo/1Z0x1mZdSIYXXJWTsmdpkdG4ODSA1pA7fCBXPK1lg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Uh. I was tracking with everything and had a grasp of where things were going ... Until ... Secondary sexual organ!?!?! I have never heard of this! How have womens kept that secret? Do I get acces like on our tenth anniversary or something??

Sorry, bad translation into English. The right word would be "secondary sex characteristics". I was not aware that the term was that misleading as to inspire several replies. Sorry for that

Silliness is all. I just didn't understand and realize (now) that the mammories would be considered such. I thought strictly in terms of genitals because even my inner scientist is a thirteen year old boy.

Long story short, I wasn't poking at you; was legitimately confused and mocking my own ignorance of the concept.

I think we could move the discussion into attractiveness of hermaphrodite. Not sure the moderators would approve.
If we ever evolve into a self-pollinating hermaphrodite species (oh, look where your mind just went) males might still have a, albeit small, role.

Worms, lovely elegans, have < 1% males.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1462001/pdf/11901116.pdf

(My inner 13 year old likes worms too).

I prefer nudibranchs (it even has nudi in the name!).

Love them

I've never wanted to be a snail more in my entire life.

Am I reading it wrong, or does typical preference for the non-fat -admirer male peak at the usual catwalk model BMI?

That's my interpretation. Media influences thought. Not my personal taste. I also think that reality is somewhat different to theory.

I don't want to get into body-type slamming, but Angelina Jolie for instance has this incredibly hypersexualized image. Glamorous, portrays sultry characters, and is built like a little erogenous homunculus*. Huge breasts, huge lips, almond-shaped bedroom eyes, etc. Having seen photos where the make-up is not expertly applied, seen her in other-than the most flattering of lights, and looking at her as an assemblage of pieces, she is not at ALL attractive to me. Far, far too thin. Compensates for the ten pounds added by the camera by taking thirty off the top, when she can't spare a one.

I have to believe that the people you might think would be be attractive are in practice not that appealing after all. At least, I imagine so. Otherwise they wouldn't have the photoshop the women into veritable cartoons to look appealing.

Similarly, anyone of any body type can drive you completely wild . . . appearance, except in the outliers, is not the be-all, end-all.

My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head.
I have seen roses damasked, red and white,
But no such roses see I in her cheeks;
And in some perfumes is there more delight
Than in the breath that from my mistress reeks.
I love to hear her speak, yet well I know
That music hath a far more pleasing sound;
I grant I never saw a goddess go;
My mistress when she walks treads on the ground.
And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare
As any she belied with false compare.

-The inestimable Billy S.




* - "erogenous homunculus" ©2014, delicious cocktail

One other thing about BMI is just that I think that often people on mfp have a very strong negative reaction to people being in the low range around 18.5 to 19 something (they call it borderline underweight), and are off the charts over reacting if a person's weight sometimes fluctuates to one pound below what puts them at 18.5. And a pound will drop a person a few down to something like 18.29. People take that fraction of a point very seriously. And this is without knowing anything about the other factors. Or that there is an alternate BMI chart that would put that person right back into the healthy range for their body type.

That's my biggest issue with the way it gets used. It's promoted all over the place, there's a BMI chart posted right outside the door of the nutrition classroom at my school, but the general population really has very little understanding of the real issues that BMI is trying to address and so they take an oversimplified generalization and try to apply it to every individual equally, when it really just can't be used that way.

One other thing about BMI is just that I think that often people on mfp have a very strong negative reaction to people being in the low range around 18.5 to 19 something (they call it borderline underweight), and are off the charts over reacting if a person's weight sometimes fluctuates to one pound below what puts them at 18.5. And a pound will drop a person a few down to something like 18.29. People take that fraction of a point very seriously. And this is without knowing anything about the other factors. Or that there is an alternate BMI chart that would put that person right back into the healthy range for their body type.

That's my biggest issue with the way it gets used. It's promoted all over the place, there's a BMI chart posted right outside the door of the nutrition classroom at my school, but the general population really has very little understanding of the real issues that BMI is trying to address and so they take an oversimplified generalization and try to apply it to every individual equally, when it really just can't be used that way.

My favorite is that they send home reports from elemenetary school with physical fitness assessments based on running a mile, pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups and BMI. The last thing I need is for my 7 and 10 y.o. boys to start reading and trying to interpret their BMI scores. Esp with 2 overweight parents actively trying to get healthier. I am very careful to explain to my kids that my goal is NOT to be skinny but to be healthier and more active. I am also careful to avoid demonizing food. They are skinny as rails and are probably underweight but they already have made remarks about not wanting to get fat :noway: :explode:

Just responding to the mention of Angelina Jolie. She is an example of how different people carry weight differently. When they cartoonize her body they make her look like she has a more curvy figure (smaller waist and bigger booty). In reality she has a very slim and straight figure with big boobs.