Starvation mode.... a case study
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jmangini
Posts: 166 Member
So, I"ve never believed in the so called "starvation mode/" For one, because I've never seen a single scientific piece of evidence that shows it is anything other than a myth.. Second, I've never seen a fat anorexic or fat people in starving countries like Ethiopia. Third, because the only animals on the planet that eat all day long are us humans and our domesticated pets. Fourth because I've never personally found it to be true. Over the last week I've been on a very restricted diet, eating as low as 800 calories on some days and re-feeding once in a while up to around 1900. I work out with weights usually 4 to 5 days a week followed by low intensity stationary bike for 10 to 20 minutes. In the past 2 and half weeks, I have gone from 187 to 180. I am not obese, as many say that is the only way this is possible. I have more energy than ever. My strength in the gym has not suffered. I've been sleeping like a baby at night, which I rarely did. My severe chronic heartburn has disappeared. I have lost no noticeable muscle, in fact I "look" more muscular. (since there is no absolute way to be 100% accurate in measuring Muscle weight alone, this is impossible to prove one way or the other, but then again, who cares. If I look better, why do I care if I lost a tiny bit of muscle or gained it. I've never understood that argument anyway.) And I don't eat back my calories I burn at the gym. I never understood this theory either. Why would I bust my butt in the gym only so I could eat more without feeling guilty?
Here are my stats
Age 46
5' 10"
180lbs
32 inch waist
I have a tendency to gain weight easily
I've been working out hard for about 2 years
I am ALL NATURAL (before anyone asks or makes ignorant comments)
My routine
I work out hard with weights, but focus on a little lighter and more reps than most guys. I like to work in the 15 rep range. Sometimes even 20 because I have a separated shoulder and am old so I don't want to injure myself further. I always do everything to failure. I incorporate a lot of drop sets, and mix things up with different routines, different rep ranges, pyramids, rest- pause and static moves - (just holding the weight still as long as possible.)
If you are interested in seeing my workout regime, I have it in another post of mine.
My diet is like this, Mostly carbs. Almost no Saturated fat on most days and what I do take in is in the form of meat and nuts mostly. I do usually one protein shake per day but don't come anywhere near the 1 gam of protein so many people preach. I take a lot of amino acids, with the one I find most effective when losing weight HMB. I take a lot of vitamins and other supplements as well. I always work out on an empty stomach besides my morning 3 cups of coffee and supplements. I work out late morning and usually don't eat until dinner. I occasionally have a protein shake about an hour after my workout if I'm hungry. I don't take anything immediately after my workout because I believe in the science behind HGH being high after intense training and don't want to stop its flow. My Diary is open if you'd like to look.
For the record, I did not "gain weight by some mysterious starvation mode" I did not lose any substantially muscle. I did not pass out from lack of nutrition. I feel better than before when I was eating all the time. And maybe the best part is the extreme hunger I used to feel all the time has gone away.
My last point is this - This approach has always worked for me, but I strayed from it, because I bought into all of the diet gurus telling me I need loads of protein and fat and no carbs and eating 7 meals a day. They had me so scared that I would lose all my hard earned muscle, I was afraid not to listen to them. But after not being able to keep my body fat off with that method. I decided to go back to my tried and true and trust my own body and experience over all else.
It's almost arrogant to think your body is going to shut down because you skipped lunch when there are truly starving people in the world who rarely eat. The Human body is capable of more than that. Gandhi used to fast for weeks. And guess what? He didn't get fat. He got skinny.
So there's my experience and philosophy for anyone interested.
Here are my stats
Age 46
5' 10"
180lbs
32 inch waist
I have a tendency to gain weight easily
I've been working out hard for about 2 years
I am ALL NATURAL (before anyone asks or makes ignorant comments)
My routine
I work out hard with weights, but focus on a little lighter and more reps than most guys. I like to work in the 15 rep range. Sometimes even 20 because I have a separated shoulder and am old so I don't want to injure myself further. I always do everything to failure. I incorporate a lot of drop sets, and mix things up with different routines, different rep ranges, pyramids, rest- pause and static moves - (just holding the weight still as long as possible.)
If you are interested in seeing my workout regime, I have it in another post of mine.
My diet is like this, Mostly carbs. Almost no Saturated fat on most days and what I do take in is in the form of meat and nuts mostly. I do usually one protein shake per day but don't come anywhere near the 1 gam of protein so many people preach. I take a lot of amino acids, with the one I find most effective when losing weight HMB. I take a lot of vitamins and other supplements as well. I always work out on an empty stomach besides my morning 3 cups of coffee and supplements. I work out late morning and usually don't eat until dinner. I occasionally have a protein shake about an hour after my workout if I'm hungry. I don't take anything immediately after my workout because I believe in the science behind HGH being high after intense training and don't want to stop its flow. My Diary is open if you'd like to look.
For the record, I did not "gain weight by some mysterious starvation mode" I did not lose any substantially muscle. I did not pass out from lack of nutrition. I feel better than before when I was eating all the time. And maybe the best part is the extreme hunger I used to feel all the time has gone away.
My last point is this - This approach has always worked for me, but I strayed from it, because I bought into all of the diet gurus telling me I need loads of protein and fat and no carbs and eating 7 meals a day. They had me so scared that I would lose all my hard earned muscle, I was afraid not to listen to them. But after not being able to keep my body fat off with that method. I decided to go back to my tried and true and trust my own body and experience over all else.
It's almost arrogant to think your body is going to shut down because you skipped lunch when there are truly starving people in the world who rarely eat. The Human body is capable of more than that. Gandhi used to fast for weeks. And guess what? He didn't get fat. He got skinny.
So there's my experience and philosophy for anyone interested.
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Replies
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The argument for wanting to retain as much muscle as possible while you lose weight is this: It's extremely hard to build muscle, so if you're going to be cutting, why not hold on to the muscle that you have instead of lose it by cutting weight faster than you need to? What's the rush anyway? The slower you lose weight, the better for your metabolic capacity and the less muscle you lose. If your goal is not to have high muscle mass, low fat mass, and a high metabolic capacity, then I guess do whatever you want, but if those are your goals, then stick with a slow cut, and a slow bulk.0
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The argument for wanting to retain as much muscle as possible while you lose weight is this: It's extremely hard to build muscle, so if you're going to be cutting, why not hold on to the muscle that you have instead of lose it by cutting weight faster than you need to? What's the rush anyway? The slower you lose weight, the better for your metabolic capacity and the less muscle you lose. If your goal is not to have high muscle mass, low fat mass, and a high metabolic capacity, then I guess do whatever you want, but if those are your goals, then stick with a slow cut, and a slow bulk.
I appreciate that and you are correct by traditional standards. I'm not really debating that. The gist of my post is really unrelated to the standard bulking cutting cycle of serious weight lifters. It's about starvation mode. That being said, I thank you for the comments.0 -
The argument for wanting to retain as much muscle as possible while you lose weight is this: It's extremely hard to build muscle, so if you're going to be cutting, why not hold on to the muscle that you have instead of lose it by cutting weight faster than you need to? What's the rush anyway? The slower you lose weight, the better for your metabolic capacity and the less muscle you lose. If your goal is not to have high muscle mass, low fat mass, and a high metabolic capacity, then I guess do whatever you want, but if those are your goals, then stick with a slow cut, and a slow bulk.
I appreciate that and you are correct by traditional standards. I'm not really debating that. The gist of my post is really unrelated to the standard bulking cutting cycle of serious weight lifters. It's about starvation mode. That being said, I thank you for the comments.
I absolutely agree with you on what you said about starvation mode. Everyone refers to this mythical "starvation mode" as the reason you shouldn't ever eat below a certain calorie amount on any given day or for any given period of time. That's just not true and it's not backed by any scientific or even anecdotal evidence. "Starvation Mode" simply does not exist...0 -
The argument for wanting to retain as much muscle as possible while you lose weight is this: It's extremely hard to build muscle, so if you're going to be cutting, why not hold on to the muscle that you have instead of lose it by cutting weight faster than you need to? What's the rush anyway? The slower you lose weight, the better for your metabolic capacity and the less muscle you lose. If your goal is not to have high muscle mass, low fat mass, and a high metabolic capacity, then I guess do whatever you want, but if those are your goals, then stick with a slow cut, and a slow bulk.
I appreciate that and you are correct by traditional standards. I'm not really debating that. The gist of my post is really unrelated to the standard bulking cutting cycle of serious weight lifters. It's about starvation mode. That being said, I thank you for the comments.
I absolutely agree with you on what you said about starvation mode. Everyone refers to this mythical "starvation mode" as the reason you shouldn't ever eat below a certain calorie amount on any given day or for any given period of time. That's just not true and it's not backed by any scientific or even anecdotal evidence. "Starvation Mode" simply does not exist...
exactly.0 -
I don't know if you are the best case study for starvation mode.
You have to remember that obesity often causes hormonal imbalances. Obese people often experience deficiencies in thyroid and reproductive hormones .
If you were obese and did this study, it would still be something that would have to be continued over a couple years to actually replicate what the obese have typically put themselves through; the regular pendulum swing of dieting and binging.
Additionally, there are differences depending on the age at which these occurred. For instance, pregnant women during World War II who went through starvation in Europe produced a disproportionate amount of offspring with early onset hypertension and other heart disease. It is well known that exposure to carcinogens in childhood is more likely to result in cancer earlier. For instance, getting sunburns before the age of 18 is significantly more likely to contribute to skin cancer in young adulthood than is getting a sunburn later in life.
Children who are obese are significantly more likely to stay obese as adults regardless of changes in diet and exercise.
I think there's a whole lot that remains misunderstood on the endocrinology front for obesity, especially childhood onset obesity.0 -
Thanks I found what you said very interesting. I happened to agree with you about the Starvation mode for a number of reasons such as: starving people, people who strictly fast often and for long periods of time, DOCTOR's who put people on extremely low WAY under 1000 calories a day diets for many reasons, including open heart surgery, people from other countries (like Russia/England) who do not eat as often/much as we do here and are healthy. So I found it interesting what you had to say and the personal examples you gave.0
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Second, I've never seen a fat anorexic or fat people in starving countries like Ethiopia
I can almost guarantee the former. Longterm starvation, being underweight, then recovery?
What do you get? Plenty of people, on this site alone, who have an altered metabolism, lack of LBM and an inability to use the old methods to get to the low weight from when their eating disorders were at their highest. And eating disorders, unfortunately, don't go away; they get managed, but the disease is always present.
Starvation mode isn't a myth, but the word gets misused. Adaptative thermogenesis is a term that will yield you more scientific studies than the pop science phrase "starvation mode." The Minnesota Experiment is a very famous, early finding of the principle. People, unfortunately, get confused over the whole principle, in part helped even by MFP, who warns about it anytime someone clocks in under 1200 calories. People vary every so slightly, but in general, a few weeks, or even months, of eating 1200kcal wouldn't result. Several months of 1200 or lower a week? Now we're talking.
As for some of your other claims, such as, "If I lose some LBM, who cares if I look better?" are phrases often uttered by the people wit EDs I referenced earlier. It sort of elevates aestheticism over health, as LBM helps hormone balance, bone density, metabolism, strength, etc. Plus, as already said, it's incredibly hard to build muscle; why lose it when you could, if not get more, at least maintain it? In twenty years, your body will be happy it's around.
As for:
I would say you're approaching this in an oddly angry fashion if you'd think it's arrogance, and not ignorance, that's the cause of people fearing starvation mode.It's almost arrogant to think your body is going to shut down because you skipped lunch when there are truly starving people in the world who rarely eat.
All in all, though, this is certainly a volatile way to introduce yourself.0 -
Adaptive thermogenesis is a very slow process and when people refer to "starvation mode" they say that eating low calories for days or weeks will cause a sharp change in metabolic rate, that's simply flat out not true.0
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I've never experienced starvation mode either, but I do believe that you should eat as many calories as possible while trying to lose a reasonable amount of fat per week. I do believe in a slower metabolism, as over time I've seen it happen to me. The body will adapt to anything, and when the body shrinks, it logically makes sense that it would try to protect itself and slow down. But, slow down to the point of burning only a few hundred calories a day when you're 200lbs (as an example?) I dunno about that one.
I also have no idea how in the world you saw no effect lifting weights in the gym dropping calories significantly. That has not been my experience. In fact, when I am even at a rate of 1-2lbs of fat loss a week I feel it in the gym...my strength begins to suffer. On the other side, when I eat a surplus, I feel great in the gym. This to me is logical. The edge comes off the body...burning fat is hard on the body, it doesn't want to, it wants to put weight on...so eating a surplus would seem to make life a lot easier. This applies mentally as well lol.
There are so many variables in the human body (or any body), chemicals, etc. It's not as simple as calories in versus calories out, but I used to believe that. If that were the case, why would someone be losing 2lbs a week for awhile, then lose nothing, drop calories by 1-200 a day and start losing 2lbs a week again? The math wouldn't add up in that case. This has happened plenty to me.
But 'starvation mode'? I dunno, never experienced it, but also never tried to eat 1000 calories or less a day either. It ranks up there with the myth (in my opinion) that you have to eat 6 meals a day to speed metabolism up. I think people confuse being hungry with "my metabolism must be faster". No, it's just that your body is used to eating 6 times a day, so when each one of those times comes, your body will be expecting food. You can train your body to eat 100 times a day, or 1 time a day. I am sure just about everybody knwos someone that eats once a day (whether on a diet or not). I do. I know a few. These guys are not into fitness, they just eat dinner and otherwise drink coffee all day. They don't feel hungry except come dinner time (I've asked).
I've trained myself to eat 3 times a day, and 6 times a day. It only takes a couple of days to adjust (body adapts to anything).
Best of luck in your continued efforts to reach your goals.0 -
Adaptive thermogenesis is a very slow process and when people refer to "starvation mode" they say that eating low calories for days or weeks will cause a sharp change in metabolic rate, that's simply flat out not true.
I agree! That's why I said the phrase gets misused.0 -
Yeah, of course you can lose weight eating 800 calories a day. So what? You can also lose weight by just not eating any calories at all. Why would anyone want to do that when it is clearly not necessary, and not sustainable as a lifestyle? Are we really using Ghandi as an example of successful nutritional planning? Really? Some of us are not here to become shriveled and frail.
I'll stick with eating 2000+ calories a day, providing my body with adequate nutrition, and still getting shredded..0 -
Yeah, of course you can lose weight eating 800 calories a day. So what? You can also lose weight by just not eating any calories at all. Why would anyone want to do that when it is clearly not necessary, and not sustainable as a lifestyle? Are we really using Ghandi as an example of successful nutritional planning? Really? Some of us are not here to become shriveled and frail.
I'll stick with eating 2000+ calories a day, providing my body with adequate nutrition, and still getting shredded..
I agree. Id rather stuff my face and be haelthy and shredded than not eat. food is so delicious lol0 -
Yeah, of course you can lose weight eating 800 calories a day. So what? You can also lose weight by just not eating any calories at all. Why would anyone want to do that when it is clearly not necessary, and not sustainable as a lifestyle? Are we really using Ghandi as an example of successful nutritional planning? Really? Some of us are not here to become shriveled and frail.
I'll stick with eating 2000+ calories a day, providing my body with adequate nutrition, and still getting shredded..
If what you got of this post is that I am pushing the Gandhi diet, then I have to laugh as I think you missed the point all together. I did not say it was the best way to get ripped. I didn't say that everyone should do it. I didn't say YOIU couldn't get ripped eating 2000 calories (good for you and I'm jealous!
- The post is about "starvation mode" I just see people on here everyday who haven't lost any weight in 7 weeks and people are always telling them it is because they aren't eating enough and they are in starvation mode. I say if you have't lost any weight in 7 weeks and you are healthy, then you are eating too many calories. And that you won't go into some mysterious starvation mode that will mess up your metabolism in a half day or a day even. 0 -
It does make me laugh thinking of a 300 lb American trying to explain to an 100 lb Ethiopian how if the American eats less than 2000 calories a day they will be starving and probably gain weight...
I don't know what the Ethiopian education system is like but I suspect they know enough to take pause at that very western insight.0 -
It does make me laugh thinking of a 300 lb American trying to explain to an 100 lb Ethiopian how if the American eats less than 2000 calories a day they will be starving and probably gain weight...
I don't know what the Ethiopian education system is like but I suspect they know enough to take pause at that very western insight.
funny stuff. So true.0 -
I've always comprehended starvation mode as the mode your body goes into shortly before you die, during which your body starts breaking down the muscles in vital organs merely for survival (meaning you usually have a day, two tops before you die) which also includes drastically altering your metabolism merely for survival.
When people go around spewing that eating too few calories will throw you into metabolism and cause you to gain/maintain weight due to starvation mode, i can't help but just laugh. It goes against the basic concept of calories/weight/etc. Your metabolism may slow a tiny bit but it's so GREATLY exaggerated in our community, as i would care to assume 99.999% of people talking about starvation mode are talking about not eating enough, as opposed to the children literally dying of starvation (due to their bodies going into starvation mode).
People are ignorant. They don't know what starvation is, as we live in a society so unaware and indulgent that we have the privilege of using terms like 'starvation' insincerely, and when talking about metabolism. Basically, I agree with you. The 'societal concept' of starvation mode in which 'our metabolisms slow down and hinder weight loss' is just crap.0 -
Whatever works for you man. find personally, if I eat too little, especially protein my muscles get smaller and my body holds onto fat a little more. I find about 2000-2500 calories is about right for me.
I really believe that you should do whatever works for you.0 -
I've always comprehended starvation mode as the mode your body goes into shortly before you die, during which your body starts breaking down the muscles in vital organs merely for survival (meaning you usually have a day, two tops before you die) which also includes drastically altering your metabolism merely for survival.
When people go around spewing that eating too few calories will throw you into metabolism and cause you to gain/maintain weight due to starvation mode, i can't help but just laugh. It goes against the basic concept of calories/weight/etc. Your metabolism may slow a tiny bit but it's so GREATLY exaggerated in our community, as i would care to assume 99.999% of people talking about starvation mode are talking about not eating enough, as opposed to the children literally dying of starvation (due to their bodies going into starvation mode).
People are ignorant. They don't know what starvation is, as we live in a society so unaware and indulgent that we have the privilege of using terms like 'starvation' insincerely, and when talking about metabolism. Basically, I agree with you. The 'societal concept' of starvation mode in which 'our metabolisms slow down and hinder weight loss' is just crap.
Perfectly said.0 -
Before I joined MFP a week ago, I suffered from a long, three year bout with depression. Somewhere in that time I was feeling so low that I pretty much stopped eating. I was only drinking water, coffee and binge eating maybe once a week (pizza, hamburgers, fries - all the fast food junk). Worked from home, so I left the house rarely and sat on my *kitten* everyday. I weighed about 200-205 before all this started, and, after six months of extremely poor dieting - I soon had severe digestive problems. Had to go to the hospital to get cleared out. I was malnourished at about 175 lbs and had extremely low colon motility. My mild psoriasis that I have had all my life (scalp and face), got worse and spread to chest and arms. My immune system took a huge hit. I feel quite lucky to be alive.
This is starvation mode, I think, and not what most people think about when dieting. I have learned the importance of caloric intake the hard way, and I'm on my way to recovery. My appetite is totally screwed up, but I'm working on it one day at a time.
Having trouble eating right now, though. I almost feel like I have to force myself. I'm at 172.2 lbs right now, 5'5", 32 year old male. Got a gym membership. I'm getting out in the sun and walking everyday. Would intermittent fasting be beneficial for me to get down to 145 lbs., you think? I'm getting about 1500 to 1800 cals in me daily depending on the intensity of my workouts. My current plan: eating window, 7am to 1pm; fast; sleep; workout at 5am; repeat daily. Thanks in advance for the advice!0 -
Before I joined MFP a week ago, I suffered from a long, three year bout with depression. Somewhere in that time I was feeling so low that I pretty much stopped eating. I was only drinking water, coffee and binge eating maybe once a week (pizza, hamburgers, fries - all the fast food junk). Worked from home, so I left the house rarely and sat on my *kitten* everyday. I weighed about 200-205 before all this started, and, after six months of extremely poor dieting - I soon had severe digestive problems. Had to go to the hospital to get cleared out. I was malnourished at about 175 lbs and had extremely low colon motility. My mild psoriasis that I have had all my life (scalp and face), got worse and spread to chest and arms. My immune system took a huge hit. I feel quite lucky to be alive.
This is starvation mode, I think, and not what most people think about when dieting. I have learned the importance of caloric intake the hard way, and I'm on my way to recovery. My appetite is totally screwed up, but I'm working on it one day at a time.
Having trouble eating right now, though. I almost feel like I have to force myself. I'm at 172.2 lbs right now, 5'5", 32 year old male. Got a gym membership. I'm getting out in the sun and walking everyday. Would intermittent fasting be beneficial for me to get down to 145 lbs., you think? I'm getting about 1500 to 1800 cals in me daily depending on the intensity of my workouts. My current plan: eating window, 7am to 1pm; fast; sleep; workout at 5am; repeat daily. Thanks in advance for the advice!
first and foremost, you need to get yourself healthy. Forget about vanity and work on your mental state. I have experience with depression and it is a real medical issue that you must address. Eating whole nutrient dense foods and exercise will help you get the proper nutrition to get your digestive system and immune system back to normal. After I ate really well for a few months, I had some fried food and was up all night. You can get used to that type of eating, but if you get away from it, you will see the difference when you eat that junk. It is simply not good for your body or your mood. Short and occasional fasts have been shown scientifically to improve your body and extend your life span. I don't think how often you eat is as important as what you eat. I don't care if you eat once a day or 7 times a day, you need to get proper nutrition, and by that I mean vitamins and minerals. You should consider juicing and focusing on eating a lot of veggies and fruits. But most of all you need to focus on getting happy. It is a vicious cycle when you are depressed, because your energy and thirst for life is nonexistent. Then you either lose your appetite or go the other direction and look to food for satisfaction. Both are equally bad. My advice to you is starting right now, decide that you will do something, however small, every day to improve your situation. Exercise, go for a bike ride, eat extra veggies, do something with friends, write down want you want in life, take a class that you've always wanted to take, volunteer somewhere. Do whatever you want but do something every day that works you in the direction you want to go. Write down what you want your life to be. List every detail and envision it. Right down how you want to look and envision it. Keep photos of things that remind you of the life you want. Have long term visions, then make very small short term goals toward that vision that are easy to accomplish. Nietzsche said "one cannot fly into flight" meaning you must first learn to crawl, then walk, then run before you could ever learn to fly. When I get down, I like to do small tasks I've been putting off to get me started in feeling a sense of accomplishment. For instance, make your bed every morning. If there is something that needs done around the house, do it. Force yourself to get out and have some purpose every single day. Wake up tomorrow morning, make yourself an omelette with veggies or a bowl of oatmeal with fruit. Have a glass of OJ and go for a run or walk. Exercise is known to increase endorphins which make you feel happy. Get your blood flowing, eat lean nutritious foods, take a multivitamin, and do something you've been putting off. Taking lots of vitamin B12 has been know to help with energy and sluggishness. If you can't get going on your own, then go talk to a professional who can help you work through your issues.
All of that being said, I know this is a site about calories in vs calories out, but I do believe the types of foods you eat affect your health and physique. It is no good to be at your desired weight if you just skinny flabby or unhealthy in any way. I personally think fasting here and there will straighten out your digestive system as it sounds like it all whacked out, as long as you're eating enough nutrients and staying away from junk food. Eating one meal a day at McDonald's won't make you look good, feel good or be healthy. You must change your eating lifestyle to better foods. It's hard at first, I won't lie. But just like you got used to eating junk and your body craves it, you WILL get used to eating right and your body will crave that. Just like my body rejected the fried foods I used to be accustomed to. You should also consider eating some non fat greek yogurt everyday for a while or taking a probiotic to get your digestive system back on track. Understand that the more you eat bad things, the more you're body will crave them. You have a lot to consider right now. I hope some other folks, especially ones with some similar experiences will offer some more insight. Good luck my friend.0
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