Food Calorie Surplus to Gain Muscle Mass…Really?

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Replies

  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    I'm so confused :huh: I have a LOT of weight to lose but i want to build muscle too...:sad:

    Bad news is that you can't really lose significant amounts of fat while building muscle. If you are losing weight, you will not build any appreciable amount of muscle. The best you can do is to lift weights and maintain the muscle mass you already have.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    I'm so confused :huh: I have a LOT of weight to lose but i want to build muscle too...:sad:

    Don't put the cart before the horse.

    Moderate calorie defict + good workouts (including both cardio and strength) + lots of patience.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    I'm so confused :huh: I have a LOT of weight to lose but i want to build muscle too...:sad:
    Why do you want to build muscle? What would be bad about losing fat and developing the muscle you already have?
  • QuietBloom
    QuietBloom Posts: 5,413 Member
    I keep reading that in order to gain muscle mass, one needs to have a caloric surplus that includes appropriate quantities of protein (and of course muscle mass building exercises). My question focuses on the food piece of this equation – I want to know if body fat calories count toward the surplus.

    My hypothesis: Given appropriate exercise and protein levels, a person can build muscle mass while eating at a calorie deficit that will result in loss of body fat (and perhaps even weight loss). My contention is that the body fat contributes to the body’s calorie needs as well as food, and until there is insufficient body fat a person should expect to be able to gain muscle mass AND lose body fat and even body weight simultaneously. What think ye?

    I am looking forward to the debate as to why this may not be true and learning a few things along the way...

    Contradicted by available evidence and known physiology. The body doesn't break down extra fat so that it has more available calories to build muscle. If the body is breaking down its own tissue to generate enough energy to stay alive, then it isn't going to be trying to build mass. That's just how it goes.

    Would you say that an overweight person could build muscle while on a deficit, though?

    I think it depends significantly on what you mean by "build muscle." I know there are all these stories of fat people "building muscle" while losing, but I think there's something physiologically different going on there than when you build muscle on a calorie surplus. I don't think that new tissue is getting created. I have no evidence for that claim, but it doesn't make sense to me. I think that a change in how/where glycogen and water and other things are getting stored, and a change in the chemistry of the adipose tissue, are probably what generate those measured differences.

    Either way, even in the most extreme verified cases, there isn't that much muscle mass created. Someone who is merely overweight and not very obese is probably not going to build any significant amount of mass - and even if they did, it wouldn't be any sort of long-term growth.

    We also have to remember that obese people also usually have larger muscles than normal weight people already(normal weight non-lifters). So if they lift to retain LBM, they might more 'built' once the extra fat has been shed.

    Grossly obese individuals (FORBES, 1987; JAMES et al., 1978) may have over 30% more fat-free mass than lean individuals of the same height. In the example shown in Figure 3, the obese individual weighting 140 kg has a fat-free mass that is 29% greater than the 70 kg man. Obese individuals appear to have more muscle and bone than lean individuals, and these help support and move the excess body weight. Obese subjects have large vascular volumes and larger hearts, which are necessary to pump more blood around larger bodies, especially during weight-bearing activities. Obese individuals may also have visceromegaly (NAEYE and ROODE, 1970). Finally, adipose tissue contains about 15% water and 5% protein (SNYDER et al., 1975), so that the presence of excess adipose tissue is associated with excess fat-free tissue (although in obese individuals adipose tissue has a smaller fat-free component than in lean individuals).

    Since all the above tend to increase fat-free tissue in the obese, dieting is expected to reduce the amount of fat-free tissue and cause a negative N balance. This loss should be regarded as physiological, although excessive loss of lean tissue, especially when it is associated with loss of body function, is clearly not desirable.
  • mustgetmuscles1
    mustgetmuscles1 Posts: 3,346 Member
    OK, so a new twist to the question (you think you’re so smart)...

    A person is male has 22% body fat, is relatively fit and strong. Eats well and maintains a zero deficit/surplus calorie diet. Works hard in the gym within a proven muscle building weight lifting program.

    If a person cannot build muscle and burn fat without a surplus calorie diet – he will stay the same weight and maintain the same muscle/fat ratio in spite of any workouts. He may get stronger (somehow), but there will be no corresponding muscle mass increase.

    If a person does nothing in the gym, using this same diet, because he is at a zero deficit/surplus intake, his body will not need to store fat and would therefore maintain the same muscle/fat composition.

    Tear it up…

    1) You can get stronger with zero change (or even negative change) in muscle mass.
    2) You can lose fat and gain muscle mass at the same time. It is a slow process, though.

    It is also impossible to be at baseline maintenance at all times. When you eat a meal you will most likely have available hundreds of calories above your immediate calorie needs. You will be in a surplus. Now when you go a few hours or more without eating (sleeping) or do some kind of workout you might not have have enough ingested calories for your needs. You will be in a deficit.

    Mass will be added in the surplus and subtracted in the deficit. The question will be what is the NET gain or loss at the end of a given time. If you hit your exact maintenance number at the end of everyday you will have very slow NET change over the long term. This is great for people that are at goal weight, body composition, or needs to remain fairly lean year round but terrible for the person that has significant amounts to lose or gain.

    ETA:
    Not all mass added will be muscle and not all mass subtracted will be fat. In a surplus you will add fat, muscle and replenish glycogen. In a deficit you do the reverse but hopefully not in the same amounts. That is a recomp. If you are in a deficit or surplus you will shift the NET gain either way.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but I feel this might be an important distinction.

    Does the conversation change much when talking about muscle gains while losing weight vs muscle gains while losing fat? I feel like those terms (lose weight/lose fat) sometimes get interchanged an/or people just read over them ignoring the difference.

    Losing weight requires a calorie deficit, which contradicts muscle gains.
    Losing fat doesn't (does it?), so it may well happen while building muscle, right? Isn't that essentially what a recomp is?
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but I feel this might be an important distinction.

    Does the conversation change much when talking about muscle gains while losing weight vs muscle gains while losing fat? I feel like those terms (lose weight/lose fat) sometimes get interchanged an/or people just read over them ignoring the difference.

    Losing weight requires a calorie deficit, which contradicts muscle gains.
    Losing fat doesn't (does it?), so it may well happen while building muscle, right? Isn't that essentially what a recomp is?

    If you're gaining weight, you're going to be gaining fat, unless you're doing it extraordinarily slowly.

    Recomp is maintaining weight while your body fat % changes over time. I'm trying to bulk right now and more or less failing horribly at it and recomping instead. I'm slowly losing fat and gaining muscle while maintaining weight. That's recomp.
  • mustgetmuscles1
    mustgetmuscles1 Posts: 3,346 Member
    I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but I feel this might be an important distinction.

    Does the conversation change much when talking about muscle gains while losing weight vs muscle gains while losing fat? I feel like those terms (lose weight/lose fat) sometimes get interchanged an/or people just read over them ignoring the difference.

    Losing weight requires a calorie deficit, which contradicts muscle gains.
    Losing fat doesn't (does it?), so it may well happen while building muscle, right? Isn't that essentially what a recomp is?

    Yes it does require a deficit to go to fat stores.
  • erickirb
    erickirb Posts: 12,294 Member
    I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but I feel this might be an important distinction.

    Does the conversation change much when talking about muscle gains while losing weight vs muscle gains while losing fat? I feel like those terms (lose weight/lose fat) sometimes get interchanged an/or people just read over them ignoring the difference.

    Losing weight requires a calorie deficit, which contradicts muscle gains.
    Losing fat doesn't (does it?), so it may well happen while building muscle, right? Isn't that essentially what a recomp is?

    Yes it does require a deficit to go to fat stores.

    Isn't recomp, days in surplus and days in a deficit, to balance out gaining tiny bits of muscle on surplus days, while losing tiny bits of fat on deficit days which gives in total over time, a small amount of muscle built with a small amount of fat lost. In a sense it is like micro bulk and cut cycles.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
    I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but I feel this might be an important distinction.

    Does the conversation change much when talking about muscle gains while losing weight vs muscle gains while losing fat? I feel like those terms (lose weight/lose fat) sometimes get interchanged an/or people just read over them ignoring the difference.

    Losing weight requires a calorie deficit, which contradicts muscle gains.
    Losing fat doesn't (does it?), so it may well happen while building muscle, right? Isn't that essentially what a recomp is?

    Yes it does require a deficit to go to fat stores.

    Isn't recomp, days in surplus and days in a deficit, to balance out gaining tiny bits of muscle on surplus days, while losing tiny bits of fat on deficit days which gives in total over time, a small amount of muscle built with a small amount of fat lost. In a sense it is like micro bulk and cut cycles.

    That's one way to recomp but not the only way.
  • mustgetmuscles1
    mustgetmuscles1 Posts: 3,346 Member
    I don't want to sidetrack the conversation too much, but I feel this might be an important distinction.

    Does the conversation change much when talking about muscle gains while losing weight vs muscle gains while losing fat? I feel like those terms (lose weight/lose fat) sometimes get interchanged an/or people just read over them ignoring the difference.

    Losing weight requires a calorie deficit, which contradicts muscle gains.
    Losing fat doesn't (does it?), so it may well happen while building muscle, right? Isn't that essentially what a recomp is?

    Yes it does require a deficit to go to fat stores.

    Isn't recomp, days in surplus and days in a deficit, to balance out gaining tiny bits of muscle on surplus days, while losing tiny bits of fat on deficit days which gives in total over time, a small amount of muscle built with a small amount of fat lost. In a sense it is like micro bulk and cut cycles.

    Technically any of these cycles are recomps regardless of duration.

    Most people think of a recomp as eating at maintenance and trying to build and lose at the same time. That is what I posted a couple post above.....BUT you dont just add muscle in a surplus and you dont just burn fat in deficit with these cycles. It is a combination of adding both in a surplus and losing both in a deficit. What normally happens is that a person thinks they are going to make some noticeable changes in body composition and many just end up gaining and losing the same amounts with little NET change in either fat or muscle. The desired results are very slow.
  • PeterCohenUK
    PeterCohenUK Posts: 13
    No way.

    Exercise and weight training build muscle, food alone, nay.
  • tiddlebit11
    tiddlebit11 Posts: 182
    Bump to read later
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    Exercise and weight training build muscle, food alone, nay.

    Then how do infants grow muscle?
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    double post
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    Exercise and weight training build muscle, food alone, nay.

    Then how do infants grow muscle?

    bodyweight exercises... rolling over, holding head up, sitting up, etc. it's functional strength at it's most basic.

    And way to pick an example that has no applicable value to the thread.

    .
  • amy1612
    amy1612 Posts: 1,356 Member
    I have a picture representation of my 'start-loss-gain' in terms of muscle and size. The middle picture is after 12 weeks of lifting (5x5 stronglifts programme) and transitioning to a mainly paleo diet. I wasnt counting calories so have no idea what my intake was, but the average day was 2 eggs and salmon for breakfast, chicken and avocado for lunch and meat and veg for dinner. The third picture was taken a couple of weeks ago. After the 12 week mark I added in whole (full fat) dairy and upped the amount I ate to support lifting more and gaining strength training olympic and strongman lifts. Ive clearly gained size, but not all of it is muscle (I know this). I had a bit of a lull in training whilst finishing my thesis at which I was eating at a surplus and not working out as much. Now Im at a crossfit gym (moved after thesis, different city etc). In the middle picture I thought I had 'gained muscle'....arguabley I would look now and say Id just lost fat and gained strength. I think the third picture clearly shows muscle gains. Feel free to disagree, I just thought this is a nice representation of the changes I personally have gone through lifting and eating different amounts of food.

    GAINS_zpsaff793de.png]
  • tommaddad
    tommaddad Posts: 3
    It's absolutely possible to gain muscle mass and get lean at the same time. In fact, I'd argue that the old school mentality of "bulk up and then lean out" is outdated. Of course, I'm assuming that the ultimate goal is to develop your best body possible. As long as you're getting sufficient protein in your diet, there's no reason you can't gain lean mass and lose weight simultaneously.

    For guys, there's some great information on doing just that at http://betterbodyworkout.net
  • ginslife
    ginslife Posts: 12 Member
    When I was doing just cardio for almost 2 years I lost 40lbs but could see l lost muscle mass in my legs I started lifting and looked more muscular and still lost 5 more pounds Up until now I wasnt realy counting calories I just did what I thought I already knew about nurtrition and excercised 3 to 4x a week at gym Anway I just heard about needing caloric surplus for muscle gain or muscle maintenance I read 1g or protien for pound based on target weight and to calculate calories for target weight and add 150 But I am seeing a lower caloric intake then I figured using that previous advice I am woman btw lol
  • ginslife
    ginslife Posts: 12 Member
    Note I have generaly always had a muscular build I wonder how much genetics plays a factor I increased my protien I have an active job no sitting or computer work work about 8hrs anyway Im just gonna start documenting my calores and try to eat correct pre work out and post work out like I have been I m gonna try caloric deficit with more protien and track my results I will let you know with out muscle gain my target weight is 130 thats very very optimistic I think with muscle maintenance or gain I would be 140 Also I have very large calves for a woman Rode bikes and swam alot as a kid And now I am standing 7 to 9 hours when I work and doing at least 45mins cardio 2 to 3 x a week On the days I lift my muscles look bigger after I work for 3 days with out going to gym I seem to lose that muscle or it looks like it My weight stays the same I dunno its all very interesting I know for sure When you are at your ideal weight you would definitley needs more calories a day to build muscle especialy if you want to bulk up
  • RyanG2106
    RyanG2106 Posts: 29
    If the person is new to lifting then they will be able to build some muscle while in a deficit, and burning fat. this generally lasts around a year and is often referred to as newbie gains.

    As the body gets used to stimulation of a lifting workout this will cease to be the case and a surplus is required to build muscle, inevitably though people will add some fat at the same time.

    This is why bodybuilders have their bulks and cuts, because for the majority of people building muscle and burning fat at the same time is a near impossibility............

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