Moderation DOES NOT WORK for me

but people INTERPRET it that way, and you can't control someone's interpretation.

Absolutely and I'm not here to be his friend and coddle him. I see excuses, I'll call him out for said excuses in an effort to help him. If he perceives me as captain D bag and then decides lives out the rest of his life without self control that's out of my power.

The thing is, with weight loss, calling someone out instead of offering alternatives is often discouraging and is likely to be the opposite of helpful, are you trying to help or just here to point out control issues.

Everyone who is overweight has problems with self control, how else did we get this way, we KNOW we have control issues, the reason we come online for help and start doing something about it is because we need SUGGESTIONS on how to cope with our control issues

Shoebox Games -- you have to realize that the internet is a haven for sadists. They can be cruel without consequences. They can act like ****s to people because there are no repercussions. These folks get their jollies off this way. Sadly, MFP is not immune from this.

I'd like to think it's just a lack of understanding -- those that simply don't understand that honesty and kindness are necessarily mutually exclusive. That they can deliver truths, even hard truths, with kindness, compassion and a genuine desire to help another. But they understand, they just don't care about hurting others. In fact, I think they enjoy it rather heartily. And they use honesty as their shield and justification for cruelty. There is something very sad and broken about such folks.

Telling someone to "Just get over it, you are in control" doesnt help. THat type of statement puts someone instantly on the defensive. Suggestions are helpful, blanket statements like "don't make excuses" just make people defensive

It's especially not helpful for people who have addiction tendencies.

Many people, myself included, can moderate with most items but have to abstain from particular foods. I can eat 10 french fries and stop, for example, and not think of french fries for another two weeks. But if I get a cookie or any other sweet/chocolatey/fatty treat into my system something shorts out and I HAVE to eat another. It instantly becomes an obsession, and trying to "control" it only makes it worse.

I tried moderating with sweet treats for 10 long years and finally realized/admitted that I have a problem with those kinds of foods. I'm totally comfortable with skipping the cookie now that I know this. I do not feel restricted, obsessed, deprived, and I have zero cravings. I grieved it and moved on. It is now almost three years later since I started abstaining from those foods.

I am now grateful, instead, to be happy, healthy, obsession-free, and I enjoy being a size 4-6 as opposed to a 14-16 (pushing my way into 18's). You gotta do what works for you. One size does NOT fit all.

I'm glad that restriction was a solution to your compulsive overeating of sweets, but that doesn't mean you or anyone else is addicted to food.

You are certainly free to believe what you like about addiction. I only care about those who identify with what I'm talking about - they understand, even if you don't. Good day.

Just my opinion, but I don't see much of a distinction between the control involved with moderation and the control involved with restricting food types. If you have problems with eating certain foods in moderation, it seems like you'll probably just eventually crack if you try to restrict junk food into oblivion.

Also telling someone they need more control is sort of pointless if they feel like it's impossible. Whether or not they're wrong is sort of irrelevant at that point.

On high level it's pretty simple. Energy in and energy out. If someone feels like they don't have the ability to control the Energy In portion of that, then that's that. While you *can* simultaneously want to lose weight, and feel like you can't, you should probably recognize how non-productive that is. The unstoppable force has met the immovable object. To get out of the paradox, some variable will have to shift. If you "can't" control yourself, and you can't control your environment, try a new environment or find some sort of personal growth.

No judgement. No shame. No "suck it up" comments. No coddling. No tough love. It's all about honest priorities. If people construct scenarios that make it "impossible" to succeed, then perhaps it's time to construct a new scenario. Again, I realize it's not easy.

Telling someone to "Just get over it, you are in control" doesnt help. THat type of statement puts someone instantly on the defensive. Suggestions are helpful, blanket statements like "don't make excuses" just make people defensive

It's especially not helpful for people who have addiction tendencies.

Depends. It can be, if the person is in a certain state of mind, IMO. I'm someone who always does better realizing that I can make choices that lead to better outcomes, and if one of those choices is put a cork in it and take advantage of the support that's out there, realizing that and realizing that I do have the power to make that choice is a MUCH better frame of mind than telling myself (and being enabled by others) that I can't help it. People CAN help it.

Now, the question is what strategy ultimately works, and avoiding temptation certainly can be an important part of it for a while, but I get frustrated that so many here seem so eager to tell people that they really can't help it, that they don't have control of their choices. I mean, let's go back to the initial post--it was a litany of excuses as to why the OP could not eat less or better. Not merely the moderation thing, but her parents, she couldn't help but order pizza, etc. Again, sounds to me like she's just not ready (not that she has an addiction--and again, to what? pizza? that's absurd).

To go back to my naan example, which I think is actually more analogous to what people are talking about here than addiction, me saying "I CAN'T stop" is a tempting way to justify what I want to do in the moment, but of course I can stop. Also, it's a self fulfilling prophecy--telling yourself you can't not do something means you do it, pretty much always.

Anyway, back to moderation vs. elimination, if the pleasure I got from the one piece (or three) of naan and stopping was less than that from not eating any, then not eating any would be a better strategy, and I think that's sensible for people to consider when deciding what they want to eat. My personal way of handling this is to have naan only rarely (last time was the night before a long run) and then eat what I want.

Now, if someone were to tell me that the only way to prove self control was to eat a couple of bites of naan every night and stop, that would be silly too (but not because I'm a naan addict!). So for the same reason, sure, no one needs to include cookies or pizza or whatever in their regular diet if those are trigger foods for them, but I don't actually think that has a thing to do with the initial post.

but people INTERPRET it that way, and you can't control someone's interpretation.

Absolutely and I'm not here to be his friend and coddle him. I see excuses, I'll call him out for said excuses in an effort to help him. If he perceives me as captain D bag and then decides lives out the rest of his life without self control that's out of my power.

The thing is, with weight loss, calling someone out instead of offering alternatives is often discouraging and is likely to be the opposite of helpful, are you trying to help or just here to point out control issues.

Everyone who is overweight has problems with self control, how else did we get this way, we KNOW we have control issues, the reason we come online for help and start doing something about it is because we need SUGGESTIONS on how to cope with our control issues

Shoebox Games -- you have to realize that the internet is a haven for sadists. They can be cruel without consequences. They can act like ****s to people because there are no repercussions. These folks get their jollies off this way. Sadly, MFP is not immune from this.

I'd like to think it's just a lack of understanding -- those that simply don't understand that honesty and kindness are necessarily mutually exclusive. That they can deliver truths, even hard truths, with kindness, compassion and a genuine desire to help another. But they understand, they just don't care about hurting others. In fact, I think they enjoy it rather heartily. And they use honesty as their shield and justification for cruelty. There is something very sad and broken about such folks.

Telling someone that they do in fact have self control and that excuses are a crutch does not make me a sadist, and believe it or not I'm not getting any jollies from being straight forward and direct to the OP's problem.

For those of you who genuinely believe you have addiction issues, stop wasting time on MFP and get yourself into a 12-step program.

If you aren't going to take your "addiction" seriously, you can be damn sure random strangers on an internet forum aren't going to take it seriously.

I'd advise to do it all. Spend time here on MFP, get in a 12-step program, AND take your addiction seriously. See a nutritionist. See a therapist. Do it all. Just because it makes some people on here uncomfortable doesn't mean you can't be on here.

Whether the addiction tag is justified or not, anyone who claims to have an addiction issue and is actively working on it is acting in a way that makes sense, and (not that they need it) those people deserve a modicum of respect.

It's the horde of wankers who self-identify as addicts and then proceed to use it as a justification for failure instead of doing something about it that get the brunt of mocking on here (and elsewhere). And MFP is littered with those....

Just my opinion, but I don't see much of a distinction between the control involved with moderation and the control involved with restricting food types. If you have problems with eating certain foods in moderation, it seems like you'll probably just eventually crack if you try to restrict junk food into oblivion.

I think this is why scientists are working so fervently to discover why some people seem to be able to moderate with sweet, fatty, and/or salty foods and other's obsess to the point of bingeing. The *theory* is that there is some kind of reaction happening in particular people's brains that is nearly identical to some people's reactions to alcohol or drugs. This has not been officially proven yet, but they are very close. I hope they figure it out soon.

Social scientists, therapists, and doctors do know for certain that compulsive overeaters are *reporting* the exact same symptoms, thoughts, obsessions, and behaviors as alcoholics, so they are currently *treating* compulsive overeating just like an addiction. They are finding the same rate of success with OA as they are with AA. This is significant, even if the science hasn't caught up with it yet.

I believe the reason people crack when they deny themselves their trigger foods is because they're approaching it from the wrong mental perspective. There is a big difference between denial and restriction, and abstinence.

Restricting produces obsession because it's a shaming action. You tell yourself over and over "I shouldn't I shouldn't I shouldn't". It causes your mind to fixate on the object. To find relief from the obsession, you must consummate the thought into an action, which turns into bingeing.

Abstinence is an action of *willingness* that follows a deep surrender to the fact that you have a problem. You choose not to eat those things because you realize they take over your mind and cause you to obsess and binge. You are willing to give them up and are grateful for the freedom that follows.

It's hard to explain it. But once you do it, it's amazing! I'm almost three years "clean and sober", if you will haha and am happier than I have ever been.

But that was MY journey and is NOT for everyone. :flowerforyou:

It's the horde of wankers who self-identify as addicts and then proceed to use it as a justification for failure instead of doing something about it that get the brunt of mocking on here (and elsewhere). And MFP is littered with those....

There is a phrase we use in OA that says, "sweep your own side of the street".

One way to peace in this life is to understand that there are a lot of wankers in this world. They are hurting, or in denial, or abusers, or all manner of things. It isn't my job to label someone as a wanker or try to 'fix' them. I can pray for them and if they ask me for help I can try to help them (by meeting them where they are, not judging them, trying to hear what their real need is, speaking to them in a way they can "hear me", etc.) and they can take whatever advice I give and do what they want with it.

If they don't take my advice that is their prerogative. It can be frustrating, sure. But it is best to let them go. They make their own choices. Of course, I'll do all this in kindness, not shutting someone out.

It's the horde of wankers who self-identify as addicts and then proceed to use it as a justification for failure instead of doing something about it that get the brunt of mocking on here (and elsewhere). And MFP is littered with those....

There is a phrase we use in OA that says, "sweep your own side of the street".

One way to peace in this life is to understand that there are a lot of wankers in this world. They are hurting, or in denial, or abusers, or all manner of things. It isn't my job to label someone as a wanker or try to 'fix' them. I can pray for them and if they ask me for help I can try to help them and they can take whatever advice I give and do what they want with it.

If they don't take my advice that is their prerogative. It can be frustrating, sure. But it is best to let them go. They make their own choices.

I was hoping there was a thumbs up smiley for this! So, I will simply say I concur.

OK, I love me some junk food (pizza, wings, chips, sweets... ) and I used to think I was addicted to the food. But addiction is a strong word and I found that really I was just lazy. It's easier to order a pizza then to make one, it's easier to get drive-thru than to plan a better for me meal.

I'm not saying this is you but to me an addiction means if I go without there will be physical side effects like one would see with drugs and alcohol. I've never had the shakes because I didn't eat a sweet so again, I figured out that I'm just lazy :-)

What works for me now is to 1. Plan when I'm going to eat those foods (ToM, Picnics, Holidays, Special Occasions) and 2. Trying to stick to an 80/20 plan. I make smart choices 80% of the time and then 20% of the time, I can make not so smart choices. I have found that giving myself some room to have those things I really enjoy helps. I also find that I don't go overboard when I do have those foods. If I get a brownie now... I eat half. If I get chips, I pour a small bowl instead of sitting down with the bag.

Moderation is hard and a skill and takes some work but people think that moderation happens overnight. It doesn't. I still have days where I eat chips and dip for dinner followed by a donut. We are human though and those foods can have a big hold on us because they are comforting and tasty.

Give it time and Good luck!!

Food is going to surround you for the rest of your life. You are going to have train your mind to eating smaller portions, including fast food, if you're going to survive, and live a happier, healthier life style.

Why? Fast food is not required for survival or health, and many people live happy lives without it.

Moderation doesn't work for me as well so I've come to the conclusion that I can only allow myself to have a maximum of 2 meals a day. I've been doing IF (intermittent fasting) for about 2 1/2 - 3 years now and love it completely. I typically don't have my first meal of the day until around 6-7pm.

I started slow by skipping breakfast and not eating until 12-1pm and gradually was able to push it back further and further. There's many people that'll say its awful for your body, you need many meals throughout the day, blah blah, so on and so forth. However, there's truly no medically published work that backs those theories up.

Protein consumption must be looked at over a period of an entire day or even a few days, and not a matter of hours. If you're able to eat smaller amounts in the morning (unless you'd prefer to eat all your calories in the morning) and save your calories for the end of the day for larger meals I recommend doing so. It's how Im able to still eat very large meals and continue to lose weight or maintain weight at a very low weight.

It's the horde of wankers who self-identify as addicts and then proceed to use it as a justification for failure instead of doing something about it that get the brunt of mocking on here (and elsewhere). And MFP is littered with those....

There is a phrase we use in OA that says, "sweep your own side of the street".

One way to peace in this life is to understand that there are a lot of wankers in this world. They are hurting, or in denial, or abusers, or all manner of things. It isn't my job to label someone as a wanker or try to 'fix' them. I can pray for them and if they ask me for help I can try to help them and they can take whatever advice I give and do what they want with it.

If they don't take my advice that is their prerogative. It can be frustrating, sure. But it is best to let them go. They make their own choices.

I was hoping there was a thumbs up smiley for this! So, I will simply say I concur.

I totally agree too. Though the phrase I was introduced to was "keep your eyes on your paper."

That's a good one, too!

Food is going to surround you for the rest of your life. You are going to have train your mind to eating smaller portions, including fast food, if you're going to survive, and live a happier, healthier life style.

Why? Fast food is not required for survival or health, and many people live happy lives without it.

That's what I don't really understand. You've got people saying "just suck it up and eat everything in moderation" as if people with a really poor relationship with food just have infinite willpower, but then when you suggest someone stop eating something like pizza when dropping weight, the very same people will be the first to come in screaming "that's not sustainable!" and "I could never give up my pizza!" - presumably because of a lack of willpower (as it's most certainly sustainable in the abstract). Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Personally I just think people need to experiment to find what works for them and then just do that. If eating little portions of pizza is your thing, then that's what you should do. On the other hand, if you enjoy large portions and feeling full, then pizza is probably a terrible choice when dropping weight, so it might be best to give Domino's a break. There's no need to push so hard for what has worked for you in the past while at the same trivializing the effort that it took and the additional effort that would be required for someone with a poor relationship with food would have to put in to follow that same program. Let people find works for them and take it a step at a time.

That's so true. I'd never thought about it that way. That some of the very same people who are screaming about needing more will power and self-control in moderation are the first to complain about unsustainability in elimination approaches. Funny, that more don't just tell them to suck it up and gain a little self-control!

Just my opinion, but I don't see much of a distinction between the control involved with moderation and the control involved with restricting food types. If you have problems with eating certain foods in moderation, it seems like you'll probably just eventually crack if you try to restrict junk food into oblivion.

Most people I know who work to control weight have at least one food they avoid because if they have one bite they want to eat it ALL. I know I do.

And honestly, even if you do occasionally "crack" and overeat the restricted food, isn't that better than doing it on a regular basis?