Change Direction from Weight Loss to BUILD MUSCLE- Timing??

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BramageOMG
BramageOMG Posts: 319 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
I have done a lot of reading, and found a tremendous amount of conflicting data. As a result, I decided to lose my fat first and then begin some serious weight training. My goal: Gain lean muscle. How much? As much as I can :)

Stats
Age:49
Height:6’ 0”
Weight: 194 (down from 237)

I have been doing gym 6-7 days with an avg of 10.4 visits per week (I go twice a few days a week)
My “lose weight plan” was 80% Cardio / 20% weight training (to keep the muscle I have and ad to weight loss)

I have been eating a 1000 calorie+ deficit over 10 weeks

So here is where I am: I want to change directions and start building lean muscle. I have calculated my new intake via IIFYM including macro distribution

So here is the question: Should I get to my goal weight of 185 before making the switch, or start now?

If I start now, should I use my current weight as the starting point or eat a surplus based on the goal weight of 185?

I don’t know where my weight will end up, but I would like body fat to be in the teens.

This is with a 5% surplus and 1.0 Protien/lb of body weight. Is 5% surplus enough given I want to bulk and yet still lose some of the remaining extra weight?


Option 1 (Based on 194 Starting Weight)
CARBS.......PROTEIN.......FAT.......FIBER.......CALORIES
271.4..............194 ..............77.6......39 - 46.........2560

Option 2 (Based on 185 starting weight)
CARBS.......PROTEIN.....FAT........ FIBER ........CALORIES
272.5..............185 ...........74.......37 - 46...............2496

Thanks!!!!
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Replies

  • ana3067
    ana3067 Posts: 5,623 Member
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    I would say that you should be weight training regularly regardless of your goals, but if you want to switch to putting on muscle then you can start whenever you;d like. Understand though that if you're not at your ideal body fat percentage, then you will look puffier as you put on muscle and then have to cut again. So it depends on how much body fat you have left I guess. The more you have, the more I'd recommend continuing to cut and increasing your strength training (I personally go 5 hours a week only, 4 of those on weigh training - it sounds like overall you are over-training unless you are training for something specific like a marathon.. even then..)
  • TriLifter
    TriLifter Posts: 1,283 Member
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    I would say that you should be weight training regularly regardless of your goals, but if you want to switch to putting on muscle then you can start whenever you;d like. Understand though that if you're not at your ideal body fat percentage, then you will look puffier as you put on muscle and then have to cut again. So it depends on how much body fat you have left I guess. The more you have, the more I'd recommend continuing to cut and increasing your strength training (I personally go 5 hours a week only, 4 of those on weigh training - it sounds like overall you are over-training unless you are training for something specific like a marathon.. even then..)

    I tend to agree with this.

    What kind of lifting program are you currently following? What does this 80/20 look like?
  • BramageOMG
    BramageOMG Posts: 319 Member
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    I do Cardio every visit and lift 3 days per week. I currently do not have a weight training plan only because my focus has been weight loss. I alternate lifting as follows: Day 1 -Legs/Abs Day 2- Chest/Back Day 3- Arms/Shoulders

    My frequency has been driven by Cardio and my schedule will likely change when I move to weight training/bulking as my primary objective.

    The weight training plan I ultimately decide on will dictate that

    So my thought, and the purpose of this thread:

    If I eat a surplus based on a weight I have not achieved (185) can I begin to build lean muscle while continuing to lower my BMI? I guess just staying on the cardio track until I get to goal weight is an option, but wanted a second opinion :)
  • RGv2
    RGv2 Posts: 5,789 Member
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    You should be lifting as of yesterday.

    Lifting in a deficit maintains muscle mass so you only lose fat and water. You already went through the bulk phase when you gained weight, not maintain the muscle that you built while you lose fat (cut phase), rather than losing weight to the point that you need to bulk again to gain muscle.

    It is EXTREMELY hard to gain muscle. Save what you have so you don't have to go through all of that work and excess calories later.......unless you want to bulk again.
  • TriLifter
    TriLifter Posts: 1,283 Member
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    I do Cardio every visit and lift 3 days per week. I currently do not have a weight training plan only because my focus has been weight loss. I alternate lifting as follows: Day 1 -Legs/Abs Day 2- Chest/Back Day 3- Arms/Shoulders

    My frequency has been driven by Cardio and my schedule will likely change when I move to weight training/bulking as my primary objective.

    The weight training plan I ultimately decide on will dictate that

    So my thought, and the purpose of this thread:

    If I eat a surplus based on a weight I have not achieved (185) can I begin to build lean muscle while continuing to lower my BMI? I guess just staying on the cardio track until I get to goal weight is an option, but wanted a second opinion :)

    If you want to gain muscle, you have to lift as your primary and also eat at a surplus of your CURRENT weight. Eating at a surplus of your goal weight but at a deficit of your current weight is still a deficit. You could eat at maintenance and lift to do a body recomp (lose fat and gain muscle at the same time), but it takes about the same amount of time as watching paint dry. I suggest that you keep lifting, but follow an actual program, and eat at a deficit until you reach a better body fat %. Then you can look into doing bulk/cut or bulk/recomp cycles to gain mass.
  • amos481
    amos481 Posts: 92 Member
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    Your dedication to achieving your goals have been amazing and very inspirational!!

    I am part of a group here on MFP called Eat, Train, Progress, the moderators really know their stuff (SideSteel and Sarauk2sf) in case you want to get in touch with them. Note *** I do not mean any disrespect to the people that have/will reply to your thread.
  • Reddirtblacktopqueen
    Reddirtblacktopqueen Posts: 79 Member
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    Bumping to follow. Thanks to everyone who gives input here. :wink:
  • fivethreeone
    fivethreeone Posts: 8,196 Member
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    You do not mention your body fat percentage. bulking is not usually recommended for men who are above 15% body fat, as the rule of thumb is to cut to about 10% and bulk to 15%.

    To answer your question, your scale weight matters less than your body fat percentage in determining when is the ideal time to bulk.

    ETA: I took another look and it sounds as though you are more interested in recomposition than in bulking. If you are putting on appreciable muscle mass, you WILL gain some fat at the same time. It is unavoidable, which is the reason it is recommended that you reduce your body fat to about 10% before you begin. If you want to shed a small amount of fat while putting on a small amount of muscle it takes much longer. You would eat at maintenance, not at a surplus. For a standard bulk, you would eat about 20% above your TDEE.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,070 Member
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    Good plan :)

    If you feel really fed up cutting and your lifts are starting to stall out you could start now.

    I bulked at 30% bf which is far from ideal (female btw) but I'm still happy with my results. As to which numbers you use, use the ones for the weight you are when you decide to bulk.

    At 6' they both look pretty low though?!

    Nothing wrong with keeping the cardio but you may find you need to eat loads to keep up the gains. You'll probably find you need to increase cals a good few times along the way too as your maintenance 'catches up with you'.

    Good luck with it - I'm jealous, I've got 8lb to lose before I go for it again :/

    ETA: how many cals does your 5% translate as? As a guy, you could gain 0.5lb muscle a week - you will always gain some fat too so best to shoot for a 1lb a week gain (+500 cals)
  • BramageOMG
    BramageOMG Posts: 319 Member
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    Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

    On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

    Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,070 Member
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    How long have you been lifting? You might do better with a full body programme like Stronglifts or starting strength. Or a legs/push/pull split like wendlers.

    Apologies if you've been at it a while and know what you're doing.
  • BramageOMG
    BramageOMG Posts: 319 Member
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    Not fed up at all. The weight has fallen of very fast. My stomach is flat, my *kitten* is skin, and the muscle I had still seems to be there (except in my *kitten*) - Legs have gotten pretty skinny too. My plan was to make the turn at 190 (although I used 185 in my example). Since losing weight is not hard for me (sorry for those that now hate me).. Ill continue with original plan. Get to 190 (probably by next week).. then go with a 10% bulk / lift program. Once I see where things are going, I can adjust.

    Thanks to everyone that has provided guidance!!

    I have been using strong lifts with some random isolation where I see a need (Legs / Arms). Have not lifted in a number of years, and the new plans look like the (very) old plans: Few Compound Exercises with low reps and heavy weight. There are a couple I am looking at and the ones I am considering are all very similar to SL 5X5. Where I am weak on free weights I have been using machine / smith to get a base which will then move over to free weight / barbell / dumbbell as my strength allows
  • RGv2
    RGv2 Posts: 5,789 Member
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    Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

    On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

    Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.

    No.....

    If you weight train now, you will maintain muscle mass, thus being more efficient at dropping your BF% as when you lose, you lose mostly fat and water. You're in the cut right now, so you should be weight training to maintain your muscle mass. Not work to lose it and then work even harder to get it back. That's counter production, don't you think?

    Edit because you just replied again. You don't need to go through a bulk. Make your deficit extremely moderate and lift heavy. You probably don't need to gain muscle as much as you need to maintain it while dropping BF.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,070 Member
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    Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

    On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

    Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.

    No no, you misunderstand - start the programme now. You can gain strength and help maintain muscle at deficit :)
  • SteveJWatson
    SteveJWatson Posts: 1,225 Member
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    You are the same height as me and I am roughly 12% BF at 168lbs, which is where I bulked from last time, this time I want to cut to 10% before I bulk.

    And as others have said, you ned to lift whilst cutting to maintain your muscle mass.
  • MrGonzo05
    MrGonzo05 Posts: 1,120 Member
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    You should wait 3 more weeks.

    Just kidding. Lift now.
  • fivethreeone
    fivethreeone Posts: 8,196 Member
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    Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

    On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

    Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.

    No.....

    If you weight train now, you will maintain muscle mass, thus being more efficient at dropping your BF% as when you lose, you lose mostly fat and water. You're in the cut right now, so you should be weight training to maintain your muscle mass. Not work to lose it and then work even harder to get it back. That's counter production, don't you think?

    Edit because you just replied again. You don't need to go through a bulk. Make your deficit extremely moderate and lift heavy. You probably don't need to gain muscle as much as you need to maintain it while dropping BF.

    I agree with this, given the information you provided, though a multi-site skinfold test with calipers would be a better method of determining bf%.

    You should be lifting on a regular program now to preserve muscle mass. Strength gains and mass gains are not the same thing.
  • VAClydesdale
    VAClydesdale Posts: 6 Member
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    I do more 7 hours a week of cardio (cycling and running) because I love it. I used to lift ten years ago (switched to cardio because it kept the weight of better) but have added it back recently since I've been on MFP. I agree with others that you should be lifting now to keep and/or add muscle now. It will help burn more body fat.
  • BramageOMG
    BramageOMG Posts: 319 Member
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    You should wait 3 more weeks.

    Just kidding. Lift now.

    In 3 weeks Ill weigh 112.. LOL Good info all around. I think I have a good idea of where I need to go. And to clarify: I am coming from FAT-*kitten* and now looking to buff up a little :D
  • flavia1432
    flavia1432 Posts: 30 Member
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    Nothing to offer - the "coming from FAT *kitten*" thing just cracked me up. ;)

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