So ... yeah about muscle building in a deficit.

I have put on hella muscle mass in a small deficit. I'm tired of this MFP myth as well.

Pretty much my whole fitness life revolves around losing fat and maintaining muscle because not only do I lift, I also do a lot of body weight exercises competitively (and trail run) and I have to try to balance the two out (lifting #'s versus endurance and speed on body weight stuff). So not only do my lifting #'s have to go up, but my BF #'s need to go down (either through recomp, straight weight loss or fat loss).

I'm pretty much on here to read about gains and talk about gains. GAINZZZZZ. I work out enough. Plus, the people who complain about the chit chatting in lieu of working out are the ones with thousands and thousands of posts. :huh:

Lol, this thread is like a therapy session...I wonder how long its effects will last?

I just want to clarify one thing for SoLong: the MFP mantra is about the issues around gaining muscle size and is NOT about gaining strength.

Strength gains are expected - I mean, the main program recommended around here to beginners IS a strength program (SL 5x5) that expects progressive gains every session.

.... Plus, the people who complain about the chit chatting in lieu of working out are the ones with thousands and thousands of posts. :huh:

I have no idea what this means

Good reading here about gains http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html . CDC also has an article to support that obese people start out with more muscle to support their frames and as you lose the fat that muscle is revealed making it appear like gains but you actually are losing both fat and muscle in deficit. The body recomp has a few articles over there that really explain fat loss, why new or people with a lot of fat to lose can train in deficit, whereas someone more advanced would need to bulk etc.

Lol, this thread is like a therapy session...I wonder how long its effects will last?

I just want to clarify one thing for SoLong: the MFP mantra is about the issues around gaining muscle size and is NOT about gaining strength.

Strength gains are expected - I mean, the main program recommended around here to beginners IS a strength program (SL 5x5) that expects progressive gains every session.

but is that necessarily strength gain? i think a lot of that continual progression (especially if you're adding 5-10 pounds a session) is more about learning the proper most efficient way to do the exercise . i dont think the real strength training comes in until it's difficult to add more weight

Lol, this thread is like a therapy session...I wonder how long its effects will last?

I just want to clarify one thing for SoLong: the MFP mantra is about the issues around gaining muscle size and is NOT about gaining strength.

Strength gains are expected - I mean, the main program recommended around here to beginners IS a strength program (SL 5x5) that expects progressive gains every session.

Yes, the mantra is still wrong, as I've always read people write "no new muscle" on here. (On changing the argument to size, it is vague and un-defined enough for any position to be true so as to be pointless to even try to argue). There are many levels of misconceptions here, and most argue one or another issue on both sides of the argument, that still can be true, like yes, most of the appearance change is more to due with fat loss and water plus nutrient retention, yes much of the strength gain is due to the brain actually learning to fire more coordinated muscle groups together. What is the value of coming in and telling someone who is excited about their strength gains "but you aren't making any new muscle"? Unless you are trying to discourage them, or just because you really believe the myth and have a need to "be right" and everyone else repeated it?

Go look at the studies, there are some that show muscle gain while on a deficit, some that don't. This means there probably are factors we don't yet have a finger on at play and the most accurate thing to say is that it probably CAN happen, but probably not all the time, under all circumstances and definitely not to the extent it happens while on a surplus. Now next, we also know that muscle damage and repair happens over and over while on a deficit, whenever you work out. If not, someone working out while on a deficit would LOSE strength.

Muscle repair involves breaking down of damaged fibers and then...cells proliferate in response to injury, differentiate into myoblasts, and join together to form multinucleated myotubes, building NEW muscle tissue. So really, this new muscle generation happens *all the time* on a deficit...take that in for a second. Argument is already lost without anything else.

You can say the rate is much lower, you can say you can't become bodybuilder size this way, you can say that you will not bulk up your muscles this way, you can say that that unexplained weight gain is not due to "new muscle", but you cannot say that they built no new muscle and be accurate, it is just flat out wrong.

I think I understand much of why many "no new muscle" people tend to think this: the more you train, the lower your bodyfat, the closer you are to an unknown "genetic potential" and the longer you've trained, the harder it is to make this kind of gain. Most of these people tend to be more trained people...so you tend to think it doesn't happen, because for you, its extremely hard and you find essentially no new gains or lose strength while cutting. I get it, it happens to me too if I'm not extremely careful managing things. I'll keep strength, then lose balance on something and lose some, then regain some (also showing its probably not just rewiring btw, unless it magically un and then rewires). But all this really means you are doing the EXACT same thing as the guy above who uses his circumstance to "prove" he built a lot of new muscle, even though that's no proof either.

However, this whole thing is a side argument anyways, it does not get to the point of strength training or weight loss issues, especially in a place like MFP where most are new lifters, or at least not long term lifters trying to bulk and gain large size!!! It just discourages people, and on top of that, its incorrect, so why perpetuate misinformation and discourage people? Makes no sense to me.

GJ OP and Snooooooooopy, keep up the good work! You have most definitely built SOME new muscle, and trained your muscles for improved strength, anyone who wants to deny this is just plain wrong, sorry MFPerts.