considering paleo, can I get your input?
Replies
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I would certainly be interested in a few key points that you might have taken exception too, just to keep the ball rolling and of course to get your point of view.
2) That presentation by Aragon gets thrown around this website alot like it's gospel. He conveys information above his level of expertise and delves into subject matter that he is not trained in (he has publically confirmed his credentials). This shows!! (to those who ARE trained in the material towards which he extends himself). He is a very convincing presenter to the uninitiated and does have extreme diligence in looking things up. But looking things up doesn't always equate to understanding them. This shows too. He certainly isn't wrong all the time and his arguments aren't way out in left field, but he extends his arguments and conclusions far beyond what they are actually supported by. Many of his reasoning points that I've seen in additional material of his actually have a false premise and are misleading to those with a background, but he is skilled at delivering anything strongly so he wins people over. Because of people who love being skeptical of anything contradictory to convention, including common sense, this man will always have work.
His reasoning and logic are just as loose as the theories he is trying to debunk. There is no conclusive evidence to really support ANY SPECIFIC lifestyle pattern because randomized controlled double blind trials are impossible for lifestyle issues and always will be - there are too many variables to control, and the effects must be monitored over a lifetime. Lock somebody up for 60 years, do your experiments, and then you may have a chance to get "conclusive" evidence. Many of us don't plan on waiting that long for such research to be approved and completed, so we have to default to well thought out subjectivity.
Just because there is no definite evidence to say any specific thing works does not give us permission to throw things that sound like common sense out the window. Just because there is no randomized double blind control study to say that bicycle helmets are safe doesn't mean we send our kids out on bikes without them.
That's great except all you've done is attack the arguer(Aragon). You haven't addressed any of the points.
So, basically nothing but an ad hominem logical fallacy.
Ad hominem is going after tangential aspects of the GUY to discredit him. I was going after what he DOES. Please re-read.
You can tell by my post that I obviously take exception to a hell of a lot of what he conveys (although there are things that he says that are certainly valid as well). You expect me to dissect his work piece by piece, and spill out things I learned in decades of school/training to provide context on a forum that wants to hear none of it? That's days, maybe weeks, of unpaid work. All that time and energy so that someone can post another misleading link or make some stupid comment to derail the whole train of thought??? People who volunteer their time like that are generous, but are also suckers who get their time wasted.
I'm happy to comment in a general sense to influence the general direction of where things go on a forum, but no, I will not do your homework for you.
A serious private message is another matter.0 -
Ad hominem is going after tangential aspects of the GUY to discredit him. I was going after what he DOES.
It's still a fallacy of irrelevance. If you can't address the arguments instead of attacking unrelated matters, then there is no reason to take you seriously.0 -
I felt like I was reading a post from myself just now. I have experienced the same exact thing as far as PCOS and being put on birth control to "fix" the symptoms. Unfortunately I have a very difficult time losing weight because of the PCOS. For me personally low carb can help quite a bit, but maybe a modified paleo where you incorporate less of the fruits (while not completely eliminating them) would help as well. I just recently started trying to eat paleo so I can't shed much light on how well it has helped me as of yet.
I agree with the comments that you should find a new doctor. I did and they are sending me for bloodwork to check on my hormones and treat the cause rather than just the symptoms. Good luck!!
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I would certainly be interested in a few key points that you might have taken exception too, just to keep the ball rolling and of course to get your point of view.
2) That presentation by Aragon gets thrown around this website alot like it's gospel. He conveys information above his level of expertise and delves into subject matter that he is not trained in (he has publically confirmed his credentials). This shows!! (to those who ARE trained in the material towards which he extends himself). He is a very convincing presenter to the uninitiated and does have extreme diligence in looking things up. But looking things up doesn't always equate to understanding them. This shows too. He certainly isn't wrong all the time and his arguments aren't way out in left field, but he extends his arguments and conclusions far beyond what they are actually supported by. Many of his reasoning points that I've seen in additional material of his actually have a false premise and are misleading to those with a background, but he is skilled at delivering anything strongly so he wins people over. Because of people who love being skeptical of anything contradictory to convention, including common sense, this man will always have work.
His reasoning and logic are just as loose as the theories he is trying to debunk. There is no conclusive evidence to really support ANY SPECIFIC lifestyle pattern because randomized controlled double blind trials are impossible for lifestyle issues and always will be - there are too many variables to control, and the effects must be monitored over a lifetime. Lock somebody up for 60 years, do your experiments, and then you may have a chance to get "conclusive" evidence. Many of us don't plan on waiting that long for such research to be approved and completed, so we have to default to well thought out subjectivity.
Just because there is no definite evidence to say any specific thing works does not give us permission to throw things that sound like common sense out the window. Just because there is no randomized double blind control study to say that bicycle helmets are safe doesn't mean we send our kids out on bikes without them.
That's great except all you've done is attack the arguer(Aragon). You haven't addressed any of the points.
So, basically nothing but an ad hominem logical fallacy.
Ad hominem is going after tangential aspects of the GUY to discredit him. I was going after what he DOES. Please re-read.
You can tell by my post that I obviously take exception to a hell of a lot of what he conveys (although there are things that he says that are certainly valid as well). You expect me to dissect his work piece by piece, and spill out things I learned in decades of school/training to provide context on a forum that wants to hear none of it? That's days, maybe weeks, of unpaid work. All that time and energy so that someone can post another misleading link or make some stupid comment to derail the whole train of thought??? People who volunteer their time like that are generous, but are also suckers who get their time wasted.
I'm happy to comment in a general sense to influence the general direction of where things go on a forum, but no, I will not do your homework for you.
A serious private message is another matter.
Hi, I am reluctant to do this on a forum b/c .... it's a forum, you know how things go. If you want you can private message me, but with Aragon's thing (as well as the TED talk that was posted), there's just too much so I don't know how I can address all those points and live a real life I am no fan of dogmatic extreme ridiculously rigid diets, but I am equally cautious about debunkers who like to debunk common sense concepts that OP was talking about. 0 -
Ad hominem is going after tangential aspects of the GUY to discredit him. I was going after what he DOES.
It's still a fallacy of irrelevance. If you can't address the arguments instead of attacking unrelated matters, then there is no reason to take you seriously.
I'm perfectly ok with you not taking me seriously. My life is complete without that. And I'm sure you also don't care if I take you seriously or not. I just ask that people stop taking HIM seriously!0 -
I just ask that people stop taking HIM seriously!
Again, your resorting to logical fallacies as the basis of your rebuttal only demonstrates that you have no compelling response. Either back up your assertions with evidence or don't make them.0 -
Honestly I've tried a lot of diets and exercise like it's my job. Normally I don't buy into hype but I came across a diet called the 3 week diet and it worked like a charm. Obviously you have to continue and make it your lifestyle but It trimmed 21 lbs in three weeks and its stayed off like it guarantees. If you wanna check it out.. It was well worth it!! http://tinyurl.com/psdadtk 0
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I just ask that people stop taking HIM seriously!
Again, your resorting to logical fallacies as the basis of your rebuttal only demonstrates that you have no compelling response. Either back up your assertions with evidence or don't make them.
Rebuttal???? Please refer to my post regarding time wasted.
Evidence???? If you read my first post that you addressed, you wouldn't have posted this.
A perfect example about not getting sucked into specifics on a forum. Even the general things I was saying aren't digested! But I am getting sucked into a tit-for-tat exchange that can go on all night. So, I'm cutting the cord. Bye.0 -
I just ask that people stop taking HIM seriously!
Again, your resorting to logical fallacies as the basis of your rebuttal only demonstrates that you have no compelling response. Either back up your assertions with evidence or don't make them.
Rebuttal???? Please refer to my post regarding time wasted.
Evidence???? If you read my first post that you addressed, you wouldn't have posted this.
A perfect example about not getting sucked into specifics on a forum. Even the general things I was saying aren't digested! But I am getting sucked into a tit-for-tat exchange that can go on all night. So, I'm cutting the cord. Bye.
Typical puerile response from someone unwilling or unable to back up their assertions. You are dismissed.0 -
The impression that I got was since I am not particularly overweight my doctor wasn't too concerned. I can understand that if she sees a lot of obese women but it was definitely a bit dismissive.
Sounds like you got a real winner. You just got done saying they basically blew you off and before that said you went off the thing they prescribed due to side effects for a condition they didn't do testing to confirm.
Paleo might work well for you if it meshes with your lifestyle and taste buds. I've limited carbs before (think standard diabetic diet) and while my cravings approved it was incompatible with the distances I was biking so I put that on hold until I got back from my big trip of the year. I might do one more smaller trip this year but after that I'm going back to what I was doing.0 -
I have PCOS and have been eating mostly paleo (between 90/10 and 75/25) for the past two years. We generally have done pretty well on the diet, felt healthier but both my husband and I have missed cheese and he misses bread and rice so that where we sometimes indulge. At times, I didn't always feel satisfied with a meal and would be hunting down some healthy fat for "dessert" (olives or nuts generally)
I was diagnosed over 15 years ago - spent about 5 years on metformin which helped a bit with the insulin resistance but didn't do much else for the other symptoms. From what I'm reading women with PCOS are doing better with a more ketogenic style approach. I'm personally planning to shift to a ketogenic/paleo diet. Adjusting my macros to be low carb/moderate protein/high fat.0 -
Hi,
I have been following Gluten Free/Paleo since May; I am a diabetic/insulin resistant due to PCOS and am doing very well on this new way of eating. I have lost 16lbs, 3inches in my waist and have decreased insulin by 10 units as well as cut metformin dose from 2000 mg a day to 1000. I see Dr. end of September and expect to see great blood work results.0 -
I felt like I was reading a post from myself just now. I have experienced the same exact thing as far as PCOS and being put on birth control to "fix" the symptoms. Unfortunately I have a very difficult time losing weight because of the PCOS. For me personally low carb can help quite a bit, but maybe a modified paleo where you incorporate less of the fruits (while not completely eliminating them) would help as well. I just recently started trying to eat paleo so I can't shed much light on how well it has helped me as of yet.
I agree with the comments that you should find a new doctor. I did and they are sending me for bloodwork to check on my hormones and treat the cause rather than just the symptoms. Good luck!!
Thanks for the input! appreciate hearing from others in a similar position. I will definitely seek out further testing if the symptoms become more noticible or disruptive.
I appreciate everyone's input...sorry things got a bit derailed with arguments about the diet. I definitely welcome different opinions, I just hope they can be stated respectfully and that people actually read my post before jumping into an anti-paleo rage!
After reading these opinions and doing some more research, I am definitely inclined to try eliminating the grain and dairy for a while and see how I feel. It may be pure coincidence, but after one solid day of paleo eating I lost two pounds after not losing a thing for two weeks while eating the same number of calories. As with any new diet, I'm sure this is just that initial jump and doesn't mean much long term, but it is definitely encouraging! For those that mention keto, I don't think I can go super low carb because of how much I run, but I definitely think I can get my carbs from fruit rather than bread....a banana pre or post run seems to do the trick.
If any runners have experience with paleo or keto I'd love to hear how it worked out for you!0 -
Paleo can work but from all my friends and family doing it. It can get expensive.
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I've been on a keto diet (similar in many ways Paleo) for about a month now, with an occasional lapse (2 or three meals I'd guess). I'm not sure if I'll stay on it or not, but from everything I've read it isn't harmful.
I can't address the PCOS side of things, but I'd say just give it a try. Go all in for a month or two and see how you feel. It's not like a sex change operation. If you don't like Paleo, just give it up. No harm done.0 -
I've been on a keto diet (similar in many ways Paleo) for about a month now, with an occasional lapse (2 or three meals I'd guess). I'm not sure if I'll stay on it or not, but from everything I've read it isn't harmful.
I can't address the PCOS side of things, but I'd say just give it a try. Go all in for a month or two and see how you feel. It's not like a sex change operation. If you don't like Paleo, just give it up. No harm done.
haha! very true. I do think its worth a shot. Feeling a little tired today (day two) but I've read that's not unusual the first few days you cut carbs?0 -
Yeah, I was a bit tired, mostly I was just more tired at the end of the day. I'd be hard pressed to be too tired during my work hours simply because of the gigantic coffee monkey that lives on my back. I'm sure it depends a bit on how low you cut carbs. I think that is one of the differences between what I think Paleo is and what a keto diet is. I try and and stay below 30 net carbs but I don't think Paleo has such low carb requirement.haha! very true. I do think its worth a shot. Feeling a little tired today (day two) but I've read that's not unusual the first few days you cut carbs?
DISCLAIMER
I'm not trying to imply that going keto is the way to go. I'm still not sure it's something I'll stick with. I'm just trying to relate my situation to yours. And the more I think about it, since my ovaries are cyst free (and I am in fact entirely ovary free), our situation is only slightly comparable. :happy:0 -
Yeah, I was a bit tired, mostly I was just more tired at the end of the day. I'd be hard pressed to be too tired during my work hours simply because of the gigantic coffee monkey that lives on my back. I'm sure it depends a bit on how low you cut carbs. I think that is one of the differences between what I think Paleo is and what a keto diet is. I try and and stay below 30 net carbs but I don't think Paleo has such low carb requirement.haha! very true. I do think its worth a shot. Feeling a little tired today (day two) but I've read that's not unusual the first few days you cut carbs?
DISCLAIMER
I'm not trying to imply that going keto is the way to go. I'm still not sure it's something I'll stick with. I'm just trying to relate my situation to yours. And the more I think about it, since my ovaries are cyst free (and I am in fact entirely ovary free), our situation is only slightly comparable. :happy:
Haha no no, I understand. I'm keeping my carbs at or under 30% right now.....it would be pretty tricky for me to get too much lower but even that is a huge change from 60-70% like they used to be! Going to try this out for a bit and see if I lose and feel good 0 -
I eat mostly what the paleo folks do but I don't call it paleo because my OCD kicks in and I get carried away with it.
For example, do I have to cook my meat over a camp fire to be paleo ?
Can I use pots and pans to cook ?
Can I still hunt wild game with a gun or do I need to use a spear ?
Where do I get wolly mammoth steaks ?
Anyhow I rather enjoy the whole foods life style and have no intentions of changing it any time soon.
It has been fantastic for loosing fat and got my blood pressure and cholesterol under control to the point I was able to get off meds.
I hope the OP gives it a shot and makes it work for her lifestyle. oh and I eat a little bit of cheese but I also make it myself from raw milk.0 -
... Going to try this out for a bit and see if I lose and feel good
Well good luck, hope it (or something) works. Keep on keeping on! 0 -
I eat mostly what the paleo folks do but I don't call it paleo because my OCD kicks in and I get carried away with it.
For example, do I have to cook my meat over a camp fire to be paleo ?
Can I use pots and pans to cook ?
Can I still hunt wild game with a gun or do I need to use a spear ?
Where do I get wolly mammoth steaks ?
Anyhow I rather enjoy the whole foods life style and have no intentions of changing it any time soon.
It has been fantastic for loosing fat and got my blood pressure and cholesterol under control to the point I was able to get off meds.
I hope the OP gives it a shot and makes it work for her lifestyle. oh and I eat a little bit of cheese but I also make it myself from raw milk.
Haha thanks for the feedback! No wooly mammoths for me
So even with all the eggs and meat, your cholesterol improved? I'm curious about this because in a couple days of paleoish tracking, cholesterol is way higher than usual in my nutrients. I don't have any cholesterol issues but I'm wondering if it is something to look out for long term? Maybe I should switch to egg whites?0 -
So even with all the eggs and meat, your cholesterol improved? I'm curious about this because in a couple days of paleoish tracking, cholesterol is way higher than usual in my nutrients. I don't have any cholesterol issues but I'm wondering if it is something to look out for long term? Maybe I should switch to egg whites?
I think more and more "experts" are discovering that dietary cholesterol has less to do with blood cholesterol as previously believed.
And anecdotally, many Paleo and keto folks claim their cholesterol numbers improved.
I'd say google for some studies that you trust. I'm sure someone here can point to the studies.
One of my favorite ideas is "ya know, cows eat almost no cholesterol, but they sure are full of it".0 -
I eat mostly what the paleo folks do but I don't call it paleo because my OCD kicks in and I get carried away with it.
For example, do I have to cook my meat over a camp fire to be paleo ?
Can I use pots and pans to cook ?
Can I still hunt wild game with a gun or do I need to use a spear ?
Where do I get wolly mammoth steaks ?
Anyhow I rather enjoy the whole foods life style and have no intentions of changing it any time soon.
It has been fantastic for loosing fat and got my blood pressure and cholesterol under control to the point I was able to get off meds.
I hope the OP gives it a shot and makes it work for her lifestyle. oh and I eat a little bit of cheese but I also make it myself from raw milk.
Haha thanks for the feedback! No wooly mammoths for me
So even with all the eggs and meat, your cholesterol improved? I'm curious about this because in a couple days of paleoish tracking, cholesterol is way higher than usual in my nutrients. I don't have any cholesterol issues but I'm wondering if it is something to look out for long term? Maybe I should switch to egg whites?
Yes,
A little back round.
I had a baby heart attack one day while I was actually in the doctors office. drama drama drama test test test.. My doc suggested I limit my sodium to 1500 mg per day and also put me on blood and cholesterol meds.
I slowly started cutting out processed foods but in order to get to goal I ended up only eating whole foods , Some would label it. Low carb / paleo P45% F45% C10%. My protein staple is chicken breast but I eat wild fish and wild game a few times per week.
I don't eat much cow but only because I don't care for it .
I eat at least 2 eggs daily, often 4. ( free range, yes there is a difference )
I eat 1 avocado almost daily.
I do eat some cheese, maybe 4ounces a week. ( started making my own from raw milk )
Anyhow, My sodium is below 1000mg. Daily, most days around 800mg and my cholesterol consumption exceeds the 300 RDA , typically 525 -600mg
use the google and you will find studies that suggest eating cholesterol doesn't nessasirly equate to raising your cholesterol levels.
Then again I also significantly increased my cardio fitness during the same time.
Let's just agree that eating whole foods isn't bad for you 0 -
HehSo even with all the eggs and meat, your cholesterol improved? I'm curious about this because in a couple days of paleoish tracking, cholesterol is way higher than usual in my nutrients. I don't have any cholesterol issues but I'm wondering if it is something to look out for long term? Maybe I should switch to egg whites?
I think more and more "experts" are discovering that dietary cholesterol has less to do with blood cholesterol as previously believed.
And anecdotally, many Paleo and keto folks claim their cholesterol numbers improved.
I'd say google for some studies that you trust. I'm sure someone here can point to the studies.
One of my favorite ideas is "ya know, cows eat almost no cholesterol, but they sure are full of it".
I know mine did from lowering (not cutting crazily) carbs and raising fat intake. It's hard to say when you lose a significant amount of weight what exactly in your diet changed your lipid profile.
I guess that's why they have controlled studies.0 -
I eat mostly what the paleo folks do but I don't call it paleo because my OCD kicks in and I get carried away with it.
For example, do I have to cook my meat over a camp fire to be paleo ?
Can I use pots and pans to cook ?
Can I still hunt wild game with a gun or do I need to use a spear ?
Where do I get wolly mammoth steaks ?
Anyhow I rather enjoy the whole foods life style and have no intentions of changing it any time soon.
It has been fantastic for loosing fat and got my blood pressure and cholesterol under control to the point I was able to get off meds.
I hope the OP gives it a shot and makes it work for her lifestyle. oh and I eat a little bit of cheese but I also make it myself from raw milk.
Haha thanks for the feedback! No wooly mammoths for me
So even with all the eggs and meat, your cholesterol improved? I'm curious about this because in a couple days of paleoish tracking, cholesterol is way higher than usual in my nutrients. I don't have any cholesterol issues but I'm wondering if it is something to look out for long term? Maybe I should switch to egg whites?
Yes,
A little back round.
I had a baby heart attack one day while I was actually in the doctors office. drama drama drama test test test.. My doc suggested I limit my sodium to 1500 mg per day and also put me on blood and cholesterol meds.
I slowly started cutting out processed foods but in order to get to goal I ended up only eating whole foods , Some would label it. Low carb / paleo P45% F45% C10%. My protein staple is chicken breast but I eat wild fish and wild game a few times per week.
I don't eat much cow but only because I don't care for it .
I eat at least 2 eggs daily, often 4. ( free range, yes there is a difference )
I eat 1 avocado almost daily.
I do eat some cheese, maybe 4ounces a week. ( started making my own from raw milk )
Anyhow, My sodium is below 1000mg. Daily, most days around 800mg and my cholesterol consumption exceeds the 300 RDA , typically 525 -600mg
use the google and you will find studies that suggest eating cholesterol doesn't nessasirly equate to raising your cholesterol levels.
Then again I also significantly increased my cardio fitness during the same time.
Let's just agree that eating whole foods isn't bad for you
Good to hear! That's about where my cholesterol mg were landing as well. Glad to hear you are healthy! What excellent timing your heart attack had Sodium is a concern of mine purely for vain weight loss reasons but it is definitely a culprit for health as well and a good thing to remind myself to look out for. 0 -
HehSo even with all the eggs and meat, your cholesterol improved? I'm curious about this because in a couple days of paleoish tracking, cholesterol is way higher than usual in my nutrients. I don't have any cholesterol issues but I'm wondering if it is something to look out for long term? Maybe I should switch to egg whites?
I think more and more "experts" are discovering that dietary cholesterol has less to do with blood cholesterol as previously believed.
And anecdotally, many Paleo and keto folks claim their cholesterol numbers improved.
I'd say google for some studies that you trust. I'm sure someone here can point to the studies.
One of my favorite ideas is "ya know, cows eat almost no cholesterol, but they sure are full of it".
I know mine did from lowering (not cutting crazily) carbs and raising fat intake. It's hard to say when you lose a significant amount of weight what exactly in your diet changed your lipid profile.
I guess that's why they have controlled studies.
Good point! Shedding some pounds should help me out regardless 0 -
Your diet looks pretty good for just starting. I don't know if your carb level is low enough to go keto or if you are even trying to so it's hard for me to comment. But when you switch to keto the low energy lag last a few days. If yours persist longer I would do further research on carb levels of people who are just starting keto diets.
I gradually eased into my keto until I started to experience the lack of energy. It persisted for 2 weeks until I cut them down to 20g net and my energy came back as my body became keto adapted.
Not saying you will experience this but be aware of it.0 -
The paleo diet has history on its side in that it is the diet on which our species survived for tens of thousands of years and logic (at first) suggests that this is the diet to which we are most suited. But we are no longer in the stone age. We live longer and healthier, due to knowledge and modern medicine, and so the paleo "rules' do not necessarily apply. But there does not appear to be any logic which would suggest that a paleo diet is harmful provided that a variety of foods are in the mix.
But we are no longer paleolithic "man". Some time in the neolithic, some of our ancestors underwent a genetic mutation which allowed adults to digest lactose. This would suggest that people descended from these mutated ancestors are genetically suited to paleo plus milk and that perhaps milk and milk products could be included in paleo diets for those people carrying the mutated gene. I won't risk being accused of racism by naming those ethnic groups who should not include milk but, if you are not lactose intolerant, then perhaps milk is OK for you.
If you look at the (very) few people on the planet still living the paleo lifestyle, the one thing that stands out about their diet is the very high fibre content. Their fibre intake is about three times that of the western diet.
Fibre is a most neglected part of the western diet despite the fact that it has many benefits including cholesterol reduction. If you are going to go paleo, I would suggest ensuring that your fibre intake be slowly increased as you slowly remove the non-paleo portions of your diet until you hit the recommended 35 grams per day of fibre. The joy of fibre is that it often has nutrients associated with it. The hassle is that it almost always has carbs associated with it.
Another thing is that "one size fits all" does not apply to diet and weight loss. Our genetics have a larger effect on our ability to put on and lose weight than many people will admit and a weight loss/gain method suitable for one person could fail for another. We need to try dietary variations until we find the one that suits our individual makeup.
Personally, my diet is Atkins with a paleo "flavour" because the two are easily compatible. My LDL is 1.2, my HDL is 1 and total triglycerides is 2.8 . I believe that the lowest total on record is 2 and so I am happy with my test. Before I went Atkins/paleo my triglycerides total was 5.3 and I was getting flak from my doctor. I still get flak but now it is because my HDL is too low - I have to increase my cholesterol!0 -
Good luck!! Little tip - because paleo seems to be such a trigger word for people, I tend to say 'eating clean', 'eating no processed foods' or 'minimising my sugar/starchy carb intake' which is almost always met with a positive response. People have such strong emotional reactions to all things food!
I would say again that initially it's worth really minimising sugar from ALL sources (honey, maple syrup, agave, fruit etc. etc.) for a good while to let your body re-aclimatise.... BUT if it works for you to gradually phase things out, that's great too!0 -
Haha ^^^. He isn't kidding about easing into the fiber.
If somebody not used to eating a high fiber diet instantly started, they would likely either explode or poop themselves.
I eat 200g of brussle sprouts , 200g broccoli , 2 cups raw spinich and 20 almonds a day .... Probably not something most would want to do without working up to it.
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