Maintaining lean body mass without QUITE so much protein?

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ksolksol
ksolksol Posts: 194 Member
in Food and Nutrition
My natural eating habits tend to a little less protein. When I looked at my macros before I tried (oh, I am trying) to up my protein, it tended to be just a little less than 20%.

I am concerned with losing lean muscle mass as I lose weight. Have people had success with maintaining LBM without quite so much protein?

Yes, I have started weight training.

My "restrictions,' which I may get lambasted for: I eat whole milk dairy, which I'm not giving up, and I refuse to throw out my egg yolks. I am not a fan of protein powder. I get sick of eating meat (including chicken & fish) all the time. I've gone through vegetarian phases in my life, so my natural eating tendencies are a little more grain-veggie-fruit-legume-based. Doesn't mean I won't tuck into a nice grilled steak, but I don't like to eat meat every meal.
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Replies

  • robert5891
    robert5891 Posts: 29
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    Macronutrient Intake

    Ensure that your intake of macronutrients meets sufficiency (as defined below), with remaining macronutrient composition of the diet being largely a function of personal preference.

    Ideally, ensure macronutrient sufficiency predominantly or, ideally, entirely from whole and minimally processed foods.

    Protein: ~0.6 to ~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the highest amount justified by research.

    Fat: ~0.45 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the lowest amount implied by clinical observation.

    Remaining caloric budget: whatever mix of macronutrients you prefer -- as implied by research.
  • colors_fade
    colors_fade Posts: 464 Member
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    Protein: ~0.6 to ~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the highest amount justified by research.

    So glad someone else said this!

    Yes, you don't need nearly as much protein as is typically suggested. There's been plenty of research into this area.

    A good aggregation of this is here:

    http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

    Now, about specific foods.

    First, I am an advocate for eating what you enjoy, within caloric budget. I do NOT advocate cutting anything out that you enjoy eating. So eat your egg yokes and whole milk. I put half-n-half in my coffee in the mornings :) I eat bacon. Eat what you like.

    Second, you may want to scout some of the vegetarian/vegan web sites for meal ideas and protein ideas that don't involve chicken/fish and other sources that tire you. There are PLENTY of sources for protein! There are many athletes, strongmen and bodybuilders in the world today (Tony Gonzalez, Arian Foster, Patrik Baboumia) who are getting plenty of protein with vegetarian and vegan diets, so obviously they are finding enough plant-based protein sources. I do not suggest you go vegetarian or vegan - far from it! Only that you inspect some of their meals to see if you might find certain meals more palatable for you, and still give you the required nutrients.

    Do some investigating and find some foods you enjoy that can help you reach your protein requirements. Vegetarians and Vegans do not have exclusive rights to plant-based proteins :)
  • ksolksol
    ksolksol Posts: 194 Member
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    Thank you, both. I think one of the things that was weirding me out was that I was worried about getting too high a fat macro when I would toss in seeds and nuts and eat my whole fat dairy (oh, once I switched from skim I never wanted to go back!). If I'm hearing you both correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that's not as big a concern. I've found I do better with a little more fat in my diet than the standard recommendations, but it's been pretty much pounded into me from an early age that I'm going to DIE! DIE! DIE! if I get too much fat in my diet. ;-)
  • Chief_Rocka
    Chief_Rocka Posts: 4,710 Member
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    Protein: ~0.6 to ~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the highest amount justified by research.

    Wrong. .6 - .8 is the Recommended Daily Intake, research has shown superior lean mass retention at double the RDI.
  • SweatLikeDog
    SweatLikeDog Posts: 272 Member
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    Actually fat is better for you than carbs. Low fat diet = unhealthy. Low carb diet = healthy. The only trick is to keep the calories down. If you want to turn someone into an obese diabetic, just feed put them on a high carb, low fat diet.
  • parkscs
    parkscs Posts: 1,639 Member
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    20% is pretty meaningless without more information - what's your intake in grams? Protein shakes are certainly not required but they can be convenient, particularly when you aren't eating lots of meat. What is it about shakes that you don't like? Have you tried protein bars? How about other sources of lean protein? Fish? Shrimp? Scallops? How about vegetable sources, like beans? You've got lots of options.
  • ksolksol
    ksolksol Posts: 194 Member
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    20% is pretty meaningless without more information - what's your intake in grams? Protein shakes are certainly not required but they can be convenient, particularly when you aren't eating lots of meat. What is it about shakes that you don't like? Have you tried protein bars? How about other sources of lean protein? Fish? Shrimp? Scallops? How about vegetable sources, like beans? You've got lots of options.

    Fair enough questions -- I'm down to 148 pounds right now. Through concerted effort, I've been generally getting my protein grams up to 90 or more on a more regular basis than I was.

    I know they're convenient, but I don't like protein powders and bars much because I prefer less-processed foods. The powder makes my smoothies chalky-tasting and the one time I tried it on oatmeal, all it did was ruin a good bowl of oatmeal. I often throw tofu in with my smoothies instead. I used to throw a raw egg in sometimes, although I realize that's probably not the best idea.

    I lump fish in with meat. It's not that I don't like fish, chicken or red meat, I just get tired of it if I have to eat it every meal. Seafood I don't care for unless it's breaded and fried (shrimp) or formed and breaded (crab cakes). It has to be slightly unrecognizable as seafood before I can eat it.

    Beans I love, but have probably not been eating enough of. One suggestion I've read is serving lentils as the side instead of a starch like pasta or quinoa, so I may try that. I like nuts and seeds. I think whole eggs are wonderful and have access to farm-fresh eggs. So yes, I do have some options.

    I think one of the things that was weirding me out was seeing the fat macros get high the days I got the protein macros up because I do tend to use whole-milk dairy, seeds and whole eggs a lot. Sounds like from other posters that I should be less concerned about that. I also want to make sure I get enough fruits/veggies for potassium.

    Just a lot of things to balance, and I'm still fairly new at tracking all this. I appreciate the feedback.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 9,998 Member
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    20% is pretty meaningless without more information - what's your intake in grams? Protein shakes are certainly not required but they can be convenient, particularly when you aren't eating lots of meat. What is it about shakes that you don't like? Have you tried protein bars? How about other sources of lean protein? Fish? Shrimp? Scallops? How about vegetable sources, like beans? You've got lots of options.

    Fair enough questions -- I'm down to 148 pounds right now. Through concerted effort, I've been generally getting my protein grams up to 90 or more on a more regular basis than I was.

    I know they're convenient, but I don't like protein powders and bars much because I prefer less-processed foods. The powder makes my smoothies chalky-tasting and the one time I tried it on oatmeal, all it did was ruin a good bowl of oatmeal. I often throw tofu in with my smoothies instead. I used to throw a raw egg in sometimes, although I realize that's probably not the best idea.

    I lump fish in with meat. It's not that I don't like fish, chicken or red meat, I just get tired of it if I have to eat it every meal. Seafood I don't care for unless it's breaded and fried (shrimp) or formed and breaded (crab cakes). It has to be slightly unrecognizable as seafood before I can eat it.

    Beans I love, but have probably not been eating enough of. One suggestion I've read is serving lentils as the side instead of a starch like pasta or quinoa, so I may try that. I like nuts and seeds. I think whole eggs are wonderful and have access to farm-fresh eggs. So yes, I do have some options.

    I think one of the things that was weirding me out was seeing the fat macros get high the days I got the protein macros up because I do tend to use whole-milk dairy, seeds and whole eggs a lot. Sounds like from other posters that I should be less concerned about that. I also want to make sure I get enough fruits/veggies for potassium.

    Just a lot of things to balance, and I'm still fairly new at tracking all this. I appreciate the feedback.
    Could be enough, the 90g's that is but you would need to monitor your progress to see. Generally people need more protein when in a deficit plus the body's adipose tissue only allows so much energy to be drawn from which is around 31cals for every lb of fat you have.....basically if your deficit is aggresive you would be dipping into lean mass for energy, so you want to stay away from that metabolic pathway as much as possible. Personally <i would recommend a protein shake just to bew on the safe side if you feel you can't chew the equivalent.
  • ECfromSJ
    ECfromSJ Posts: 31 Member
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    I'm in about the same situation; I've been aiming for 100 grams of protein a day and don't want to use special protein shakes either. I've been relying a lot on cottage cheese. If you can't stand to eat it plain, there are tons of ideas online for making it more palatable. Several discussions will come up if you search the message boards here, and there's a great page on the web just called the cottage cheese page. For a half cup, there's about 12 or 13 grams of protein depending on whether it's low fat or regular, for as little as 80 calories.

    Also sometimes I just roll up an ounce or two of deli ham or turkey slices and eat them as a snack to get more protein in.

    Curious to see what other suggestions you get!
  • ksolksol
    ksolksol Posts: 194 Member
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    I've been relying a lot on cottage cheese. If you can't stand to eat it plain, there are tons of ideas online for making it more palatable. Several discussions will come up if you search the message boards here, and there's a great page on the web just called the cottage cheese page. For a half cup, there's about 12 or 13 grams of protein depending on whether it's low fat or regular, for as little as 80 calories.

    Cottage cheese is a definite favorite! I like to add sunflower or pumpkin seeds to it. Blueberries and cottage cheese is the best, I think. I've also made a pretty decent salad dressing whirring cottage cheese with roasted red peppers, tomato, fresh garlic, a little oil and vinegar and spices in the blender. Thanks!
  • Eudoxy
    Eudoxy Posts: 391 Member
    Options
    Macronutrient Intake

    Ensure that your intake of macronutrients meets sufficiency (as defined below), with remaining macronutrient composition of the diet being largely a function of personal preference.

    Ideally, ensure macronutrient sufficiency predominantly or, ideally, entirely from whole and minimally processed foods.

    Protein: ~0.6 to ~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the highest amount justified by research.

    Fat: ~0.45 grams per pound of bodyweight (or target/ideal weight in the obese) -- the lowest amount implied by clinical observation.

    Remaining caloric budget: whatever mix of macronutrients you prefer -- as implied by research.

    So almost half your body weight in grams of fat is a minimum? I am always over on fat, I eat cheese, about a cup of half and half a day, ribeye, bacon, whatever. I never hit that much fat ( except when I do, lol).
  • MrGonzo05
    MrGonzo05 Posts: 1,120 Member
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    I am concerned with losing lean muscle mass as I lose weight. Have people had success with maintaining LBM without quite so much protein?

    It can be done, but you are going to lose more LBM than you needed to in the process. It's not a "switch" where if you eat less than some magic number, terrible things happen regarding LBM. But more a continuum. Get as much protein as you can, or in your case, are willing to.
    Yes, I have started weight training.

    Consider getting on a good novice strength training program.
  • cdahl383
    cdahl383 Posts: 726 Member
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    I typically eat around 0.7g-0.8g of protein per 1 lb of body weight and I have not gotten any weaker, in fact I've gone up on a few of my lifts in the last couple of months. I've read a few different research studies and most seem to say anywhere from 0.6 to 1.0g per 1 lb of bodyweight will be sufficient to retain LBM while coupled with a weight lifting routine. You don't want to drop your calorie intake too low either, no more than 20% of your TDEE.

    RDI intake is 0.84g/1 kg of bodyweight, not 1 lb. For example, I'm 194 lbs and I try to hit at a minimum of 130g each day up to about 160g (0.67g to 0.82g). Using RDI I would only need to eat about 74g per day. 194 lbs = 88 kg. 88kg x 0.84 = 74g of protein. That might be okay for a sedentary adult, but if you're active and lifting weights and in a caloric deficit, you definitely want to up that.
  • liliro34
    liliro34 Posts: 2 Member
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    I do not like telling people to forget a type of food so they can loose weight, go ahead and eat the whole egg I do it too. However I understand why my tummy might feel happier if I eat 4 egg whites instead of one whole egg. Cal vs protein,.... Also wondering about your milk intake... why? you just love it or do you think you have to have it? totally your choice I am just curious cause I think we where all fed with the "drink your milk" boloney.

    Do not know what shakes o protein have you tried, and I respect your desire for less processed foods. Just tell me you have tried Herbalife shakes and I will leave you alone. But if you do not, I will be glad to send you a sample cause I think they taste great :)


    PS. another idea.... Hummus and chia seeds, greek yogurt
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,951 Member
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    I am concerned with losing lean muscle mass as I lose weight. Have people had success with maintaining LBM without quite so much protein?
    Try it, report back.

    PS - Avoid Herbalife, it's crap.
  • ksolksol
    ksolksol Posts: 194 Member
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    Also wondering about your milk intake... why? you just love it or do you think you have to have it? totally your choice I am just curious cause I think we where all fed with the "drink your milk" boloney.

    I love it. Cup of coffee with whole milk, blackstrap molasses and cocoa powder.... yum! As for why whole, I switched from skim to whole a few years ago as an experiment. I felt better mentally, my cholesterol stayed the same and my trigylcerides dropped. Go figure. Earlier this year I dallied with skim again playing with the USDA Supertracker, and I started gaining weight.

    I don't eat a massive amount of it, but dairy is a go-to protein source for me and something I really enjoy.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    However I understand why my tummy might feel happier if I eat 4 egg whites instead of one whole egg.

    Why? I've never heard that yolks are bad for digestion.

    Like the OP, I vastly prefer eating the whole egg, although on rare occasion I will add a couple of egg whites to give more volume to a 2 egg omelet or to bump up my protein. I dislike the idea that whole eggs are to be avoided, though, or somehow bad for you just because they have calories. They also have more nutrients.

    Also like the OP, I enjoy dairy and see it as a go-to protein source. I'm more neutral on skim vs. 1-2% vs. whole, though. I like whole for some purposes, but I also like skim, and I tend to like low fat cottage cheese and greek yogurt more, or at least taste no difference. But I think the answer is that fat is okay, so long as you watch calories, so if bumping up protein bumps up fat (as it does for me sometimes) that's not a worry.

    I enjoyed this thread, since it reminded me that I need to eat more beans. I've been in a bit of a rut relying on meat, eggs, and dairy for my protein needs usually.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    whole egg, 2% or higher milk- and NEVER low fat cheese.
    Fat is fabulous.

    OP- really 20% is meaningless- I shoot for 40%- which is around 150 grams.

    Really anything over 100 is fine. I personally wouldn't regularly eat below 80, but I've read some vegan/veggy articles that suggest 40-60 is fine- but that's to low for me honestly- I get light headed and dizzy and disoriented on anything much lower than 80.

    Play around- figure out what works best for you- you might have to do a little extra work to pump it up- but it might not be the crisis you think- I have 1 cup(226 grams) of low(er) fat Cabot Greek yogurt + 1 scoop (29 grams) of protein powder and 5 oz of fruit is 240 calories and 42 grams of protein- that's a HUGE protein/calorie win win ratio right there- AND it's pretty much the most delicious thing ever.
  • ksolksol
    ksolksol Posts: 194 Member
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    Really appreciate all the helpful suggestions. Right now I am going to shoot for at least 20 grams of protein per meal and a bare minimum of 90 per day, preferably more. I've been hitting over 100 a lot lately. I realize this is lower than many suggest, but I think this is about what I can manage given my calorie goals and eating preferences. Breakfast is the hardest for me, but I do love cottage cheese and eggs, so will rely on those more.

    I am finding ways to incorporate some of the less protein-dense foods I love while still hitting my overall goals. This morning, had the almond butter on toast I was craving, but also had a half-cup of cottage cheese. At lunch, was craving a bean burrito, read the label on the refries and realized I wasn't going to hit my goal, so I tossed a fried egg on top of it for huevos. Both meals still came in on target for calories.

    Don't snack much, but the times I do I'll try to keep protein in mind. Dinners are where I really make up the slack, especially since I usually have a freezer full of grass-fed beef.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    Sounds like a plan!!!

    100 is fine.

    Also don't sweat getting it spread out evenly- it's nice if that works- but don't make yourself crazy over it- I don't even eat breakfast at this point- so all my protein is mostly afternoon/dinner!!!

    You've totally got a handle on this- review- figure out if it works for your needs and move on or adjust.
    :D

    perfect!!!

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