Anyone not count calories anymore in maintannce anymore

I just don't believe that relying on the calorie counter for the rest of your life is a realistic or healthy thing to do.

Why not?

Should have been obvious from my post...

If you lean on the crutch, you never learn how to walk by yourself.

It's a tool; a crutch. It stunts your ability to learn how eat naturally; to listen to your body naturally; to learn the habits you need to develop to have a healthy relationship with food.

As I stated, humans have eaten without a calorie counter for thousands of years. We have many people, present day, who can eat healthy and not log calories to do it. These people know how to listen to their bodies, how to recognize a portion size, how to not overeat, and how to fuel themselves for their activity level. They have a healthy, natural, unaided relationship with food.

The counter is a crutch. One should seek to learn the natural skills and habits that allow one to eliminate the crutch.

Think about it for a moment: wouldn't you prefer to never have to log another calorie ever again? To be able to go through your life eating naturally? To have a healthy relationship with food? To eat, feel satisfied, and not have the specter of guilt hanging over you ever again?

That can happen, but people choose to lean on the counter instead of developing their relationship with food.

Its easy to say that we should be able to listen to our bodies, but most people who need to lose weight have had a problem with that area.

I think its similar to telling an alcoholic that they should be able to drink a little and know when to stop. ...They tried that and it didn't work.

It's actually harder than being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can just stop drinking. I'm not saying that lightly. I know it's tough, but it can be done. Someone with issues with food cannot stop eating. So, it's actually quite a bit more complicated than being alcoholic.

I've heard doctors and therapists confirm this as well.

I've done both. Learned how to moderately drink after 21 years of sobriety, and licked my eating disorders.

It's a matter of extreme willpower and massive amounts of knowledge. Though AA and OA would like to disagree with it's 'powerlessness' mantra.

I frankly got fed up with being 'programmed' by the programs. I also have the genetics and the screwy reward system to become obese, anorexic and drink and drug myself to death, but I have taught myself self control. So good for the confidence. I wish my parents could have done the same, but maybe I've learned from them too.

Congratulations (sincerely), however you are most definitely an anomaly. You're also not dead yet. If you manage to keep that up all the way to your grave then I'll be the first to celebrate with you! I'm not doubting your experience nor saying you won't remain on your path. I'm just saying...many have said what you said, and were not so successful long-term...

It should also be noted that a person can be self controlled and confident, have will power and massive knowledge, and yet also be able to admit that they simply have a problem with particular foods, drinks, and drugs, and won't continue to entertain them after years and years of failing with them. This doesn't make you "programmed", just realistic, humble, and willing to do whatever it takes to protect yourself.

I just want to make sure people hear that, lest they believe they are weak or failures for successfully sticking to a 12-step program. Thanks.

Thank you. For reminding me how I used to think like you, and this is exactly what I'm talking about, living under this fear that I will die if I touch the evil stuff. I was conditioned to think that by a couple of sociopathic narcissists that came out of a fervently religious prohibitive 1940s era. My two years in AA tore my confidence and personality to pieces. I was misdiagnosed and had to carry the burden for 21 years. Only going in to therapy helped me see that even though I had inherited my parents makeup, I wasn't them and I refused to be in perjury for them any more.

So I started researching. You do know that out of the 40 odd recognised rehab programms AA has the highest mortality rate?

I totally believe in abstinence for the true physically dependent and dis functioning alcoholic. Abstinence is easy. But it comes from within, not from some imaginary gust of wind higher power. That's incredibly archaic. Taking people's power away and making them dependant on an institution is ridiculous.

Oh yes, and 'I'm not dead yet?' I think you need to ask yourself why you felt the need to say that. You know nothing about my past or present drinking apart from the small pieces of information, how come you feel like you can diagnose a persons future? Your reaction is histrionic, and insulting.

One more thing, we ALL have a problem with the good stuff, it's a rare person that just doesn't enjoy food drink and drugs, they've just developed good habits and perhaps had good luck, but if I can train myself after my upbringing which was extreme, others can too. (Unless they've become actually physically dependant on a substance, then I don't think there's any going back, or they have a pathology that prevents functional thinking).

Its easy to say that we should be able to listen to our bodies, but most people who need to lose weight have had a problem with that area.

I think its similar to telling an alcoholic that they should be able to drink a little and know when to stop. ...They tried that and it didn't work.

It's actually harder than being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can just stop drinking. I'm not saying that lightly. I know it's tough, but it can be done. Someone with issues with food cannot stop eating. So, it's actually quite a bit more complicated than being alcoholic.

I've heard doctors and therapists confirm this as well.

I've done both. Learned how to moderately drink after 21 years of sobriety, and licked my eating disorders.

It's a matter of extreme willpower and massive amounts of knowledge. Though AA and OA would like to disagree with it's 'powerlessness' mantra.

I frankly got fed up with being 'programmed' by the programs. I also have the genetics and the screwy reward system to become obese, anorexic and drink and drug myself to death, but I have taught myself self control. So good for the confidence. I wish my parents could have done the same, but maybe I've learned from them too.

Congratulations (sincerely), however you are most definitely an anomaly. You're also not dead yet. If you manage to keep that up all the way to your grave then I'll be the first to celebrate with you! I'm not doubting your experience nor saying you won't remain on your path. I'm just saying...many have said what you said, and were not so successful long-term...

It should also be noted that a person can be self controlled and confident, have will power and massive knowledge, and yet also be able to admit that they simply have a problem with particular foods, drinks, and drugs, and won't continue to entertain them after years and years of failing with them. This doesn't make you "programmed", just realistic, humble, and willing to do whatever it takes to protect yourself.

I just want to make sure people hear that, lest they believe they are weak or failures for successfully sticking to a 12-step program. Thanks.

Thank you. For reminding me how I used to think like you, and this is exactly what I'm talking about, living under this fear that I will die if I touch the evil stuff. I was conditioned to think that by a couple of sociopathic narcissists that came out of a fervently religious prohibitive 1940s era. My two years in AA tore my confidence and personality to pieces. I was misdiagnosed and had to carry the burden for 21 years. Only going in to therapy helped me see that even though I had inherited my parents makeup, I wasn't them and I refused to be in perjury for them any more.

So I started researching. You do know that out of the 40 odd recognised rehab programms AA has the highest mortality rate?

I totally believe in abstinence for the true physically dependent and dis functioning alcoholic. Abstinence is easy. But it comes from within, not from some imaginary gust of wind higher power. That's incredibly archaic. Taking people's power away and making them dependant on an institution is ridiculous.

Oh yes, and 'I'm not dead yet?' I think you need to ask yourself why you felt the need to say that. You know nothing about my past or present drinking apart from the small pieces of information, how come you feel like you can diagnose a persons future? Your reaction is histrionic, and insulting.

One more thing, we ALL have a problem with the good stuff, it's a rare person that just doesn't enjoy food drink and drugs, they've just developed good habits and perhaps had good luck, but if I can train myself after my upbringing which was extreme, others can too. (Unless they've become actually physically dependant on a substance, then I don't think there's any going back, or they have a pathology that prevents functional thinking).

Let me try again. I can see that your past experiences have been very difficult for you. I am so very sorry to hear that. Truly. And I am so happy you found what worked for you to be able to find success!

I say this with all gentleness, which is very hard to convey through the internet: please understand that it does no good to lash out at others who are simply trying to help people understand that there are different perspectives and experiences from yours, and that some methods work for some and not others. Just be careful that whatever pain you have from your past doesn't cause you to take the very hardened and legalistic type of line as the very thing you are railing against.... i.e., claiming everyone else should think and do exactly like you do.

I would not dare to sway a single one of the millions of people (at this point in history) who had found solace, confidence, success, and freedom through a 12-step program. It's not my place to tell them they're wrong and they've fallen for something false. As one of those millions, I can attest with 100% confidence that this program worked for me. It was exactly what I needed when I needed it. And many others have had the same experience.

You have yours, we have ours. I'm saying....let it be.

Its easy to say that we should be able to listen to our bodies, but most people who need to lose weight have had a problem with that area.

I think its similar to telling an alcoholic that they should be able to drink a little and know when to stop. ...They tried that and it didn't work.

It's actually harder than being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can just stop drinking. I'm not saying that lightly. I know it's tough, but it can be done. Someone with issues with food cannot stop eating. So, it's actually quite a bit more complicated than being alcoholic.

I've heard doctors and therapists confirm this as well.

I've done both. Learned how to moderately drink after 21 years of sobriety, and licked my eating disorders.

It's a matter of extreme willpower and massive amounts of knowledge. Though AA and OA would like to disagree with it's 'powerlessness' mantra.

I frankly got fed up with being 'programmed' by the programs. I also have the genetics and the screwy reward system to become obese, anorexic and drink and drug myself to death, but I have taught myself self control. So good for the confidence. I wish my parents could have done the same, but maybe I've learned from them too.

Congratulations (sincerely), however you are most definitely an anomaly. You're also not dead yet. If you manage to keep that up all the way to your grave then I'll be the first to celebrate with you! I'm not doubting your experience nor saying you won't remain on your path. I'm just saying...many have said what you said, and were not so successful long-term...

It should also be noted that a person can be self controlled and confident, have will power and massive knowledge, and yet also be able to admit that they simply have a problem with particular foods, drinks, and drugs, and won't continue to entertain them after years and years of failing with them. This doesn't make you "programmed", just realistic, humble, and willing to do whatever it takes to protect yourself.

I just want to make sure people hear that, lest they believe they are weak or failures for successfully sticking to a 12-step program. Thanks.

Thank you. For reminding me how I used to think like you, and this is exactly what I'm talking about, living under this fear that I will die if I touch the evil stuff. I was conditioned to think that by a couple of sociopathic narcissists that came out of a fervently religious prohibitive 1940s era. My two years in AA tore my confidence and personality to pieces. I was misdiagnosed and had to carry the burden for 21 years. Only going in to therapy helped me see that even though I had inherited my parents makeup, I wasn't them and I refused to be in perjury for them any more.

So I started researching. You do know that out of the 40 odd recognised rehab programms AA has the highest mortality rate?

I totally believe in abstinence for the true physically dependent and dis functioning alcoholic. Abstinence is easy. But it comes from within, not from some imaginary gust of wind higher power. That's incredibly archaic. Taking people's power away and making them dependant on an institution is ridiculous.

Oh yes, and 'I'm not dead yet?' I think you need to ask yourself why you felt the need to say that. You know nothing about my past or present drinking apart from the small pieces of information, how come you feel like you can diagnose a persons future? Your reaction is histrionic, and insulting.

One more thing, we ALL have a problem with the good stuff, it's a rare person that just doesn't enjoy food drink and drugs, they've just developed good habits and perhaps had good luck, but if I can train myself after my upbringing which was extreme, others can too. (Unless they've become actually physically dependant on a substance, then I don't think there's any going back, or they have a pathology that prevents functional thinking).

Let me try again. I can see that your past experiences have been very difficult for you. I am so very sorry to hear that. Truly. And I am so happy you found what worked for you to be able to find success!

I say this with all gentleness, which is very hard to convey through the internet: please understand that it does no good to lash out at others who are simply trying to help people understand that there are different perspectives and experiences from yours, and that some methods work for some and not others. Just be careful that whatever pain you have from your past doesn't cause you to take the very hardened and legalistic type of line as the very thing you are railing against.... i.e., claiming everyone else should think and do exactly like you do.

I would not dare to sway a single one of the millions of people (at this point in history) who had found solace, confidence, success, and freedom through a 12-step program. It's not my place to tell them they're wrong and they've fallen for something false. As one of those millions, I can attest with 100% confidence that this program worked for me. It was exactly what I needed when I needed it. And many others have had the same experience.

You have yours, we have ours. I'm saying....let it be.

It's ok, you don't have to talk to me like a five year old. I've been where you are, and I also have other experiences to add, which is very unusual.

I was in AA for years, I know how amazing it is. But there a very few people who make it to 21, let alone double figures. They simply either die, or fade off like me and find moderation, and keep quiet about it.

My father is a die hard AAer. He also has tremendous psychological problems that would stop him ever being able to do what I have, my mother didn't survive her alcoholism. I'm lucky I've been strong enough to make it in the normal world.

What a joy the normal world is, it's not the few glasses of wine I have per month or the odd cocktail, glass of champagne, or cigarette even. It's the freedom, the freedom to be adult enough to stop. The joy and freedom of having the body and health of my dreams because I've learned to feed myself properly and stop emotionally eating. No stupid sugar abstinence, no feeling like a broken monster that will lose all self control with one sniff of alcohol. No being thrown out of the fray when a binge happens. Because that is what happens in the 12 step programs. You fall off, and you're out. Your god deserted you, you didn't pray hard enough, you didn't grovel hard enough, or missed something in your steps. You weren't beaten and humbled enough. **** that.

Moderation is the New Abstinence dontcha know. I've been doing it for years.

We shall have to part ways at this point as I cannot seem to cut through your pain and bitterness in order to have a healthy, productive conversation with you. Take care.

Is Quicken a crutch to your spending habits?
Is a daily calendar a crutch to your time management?
Is an address book a crutch to your memory?

Sorry, not true that MFP is a crutch. It is a tool.

After almost two years of tracking, I still learn new things about macronutrients through tracking.

And if you are serious about weightlifting or fitness, it is practically a requirement.

Silly notion to assume that you are an "expert" just because you can skip tracking and not gain weight.

I couldn't possibly disagree more....

I think it's pretty ludicrous to think you're going to log every little morsel for the rest of your life...I mean, maybe you will...but I highly doubt it and for about 99.9% the notion is ridiculous. This is why people liken it to a crutch..or in my case, I liken it to training wheels...it's a tool for training you how to do **** properly so that when life inevitably happens you know what you're doing.

Also, the notion that it's practically a requirement if you're serious about fitness is absurd...I know heaps of people who are very serious about fitness...more than you or I would ever likely be...and they have never logged a single thing. People are capable of eating healthfully and living healthful lives without obsessively logging every little thing..they've been doing it forever.

Lost my weight about three years ago. I logged for another year. I'm no longer logging and maintaining pretty well. I do not want to be logging everything that goes in my mouth the rest of my life. I suggest at least trying it without logging after you have a firm grasp on what you should eat. If you stay away from too many calorically dense foods you'll find your appetite is a surprisingly good guide. If it doesn't work, you can always go back to logging.