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hpsnickers1
hpsnickers1 Posts: 2,783 Member
edited September 26 in Health and Weight Loss
YES IT'S A LOT OF INFO BUT JUST AT LEAST BUMP OR SAVE THE LINKS OR REMEMBER THE WEBSITE. THIS GUY'S INFO IS AMAZING!!!

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html

Why Big Caloric Deficits and Lots of Activity Can Hurt Fat Loss
This week, several people have brought a recent case-study to my attention and asked me for comment. In it, a 51 year old female began marathon training along with a (self-reported) low calorie diet and either appears to have gained weight or not lost weight (she also showed a very depressed metabolic rate, nearly 30% below predicted).

By raising her calories gradually, her body fat (as measured by BIA) came down and her metabolic rate increased. Now, without more details, it’s hard to really comment on this and the link to the case study is the total amount of information available.

But we’ve got an older (either post-menopausal or peri-menopausal) woman, undisclosed anti-depressant medication, self-reported food intake and a method of body fat measurement that is, at best, problematic (read Methods of Body Composition Measurement Part 2 for more details). Odd things happen metabolically around menopause, some medications can cause issues, food reporting is notoriously inaccurate and BIA isn’t ideal to track changes. Then again, the measured metabolic rate change is pretty interesting; something was going on.

That said, I’ve mentioned in previous articles that one oddity that I’ve seen (and personally experienced) over the years is one where the combination of very large caloric deficits and very large amounts of activity (especially higher-intensity activity) can cause problems for people either stalling or slowing fat loss.

Like my previous article on The LTDFLE, or Long-term Delayed Fat Loss Effect, this is one of those oddities that seems to crop up more often than you’d expect. It’s also one where there’s not a ton of research but I will happily provide a good bit of speculation on what I think may be going on.

I’d also note that the combination of big caloric deficits and large amounts of activity clearly isn’t detrimental to everyone. Some folks can get away with it but, for many, it tends to backfire more than anything else.


First, Some Background

Back in my early 20’s, I remember a very specific client I had. She was a little bit, well, to be honest nuts. She was older, I think she had gone through menopause but I wouldn’t swear to that. In any case, she started working with me, determined to lose weight and immediately jumped into something like 2 hours of cardio per day and cut calories massively. She claimed 600 calories per day and I won’t even try to describe her diet; it was insane (breakfast was supposedly one-half an egg and to this day I’m not entirely sure how you eat half an egg).

Now, I didn’t know much at that point but I had this general idea that too much activity and too few calories was a bad thing. For weeks on end I entreated her to either cut her activity or raise her calories. She adamantly refused; how could that possibly work? I tried to point out that what she was doing wasn’t working either and she could hardly do worse by trying something different but that line of logic went nowhere.

In any event, at one point she went on a cruise or a vacation or something. And what do you think she did? Exercised less and ate more like everybody does on vacation. And she came back something like 5 pounds lighter (some of which may very well have been The LTDFLE mind you). “See, see.” I told her, “You ate more and exercised less and good things happened.”

And she immediately went back to a massive caloric deficit and over-exercising. But that’s how it goes sometimes.

Later in my 20’s, mind you, I’d do the same thing during the now infamous Bodyopus experience (probably the singular experience that taught me what NOT to do during a fat loss diet). Frustrated by stalled fat loss (I had dieted far too long at that point in the first place), I worked even harder, cutting calories further and adding more activity. That coupled with some genuinely awful ‘carb-loads’ took fat loss to a standstill.

In addition to those case studies, this is a phenomenon that I’ve seen elsewhere including the support forum, I imagine readers run into it constantly: people (frequently but not always women) who try to combine excessive caloric deficits with massive amounts of activity (often with a lot of that activity being high-intensity activity) and nothing is happening. And if you can get them to reduce activity (or just cut back the intensity to reasonable level) or increase calories, things invariably start to work better.

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What’s Going On: Let’s Talk About Cortisol

Cortisol is one of those hormones that I imagine everyone reading this has heard about and about which a lot of misinformation exists. Simply cortisol is a stress hormone, released by the body in response to nearly all kinds of stress. In the fitness/bodybuilding world, cortisol has gotten an almost exclusively negative reputation (cortisol is ‘bad’ in the way that testosterone and thyroid are ‘good’) although this is simplistically incorrect.

Rather, whether cortisol does good things or bad things in the body depends on how it’s released. Simply (and I’d simply, ha ha, refer folks to Robert Sapolsky’s amazing book Why Zebras Don’t Get Ulcers for a detailed look at this; I also talk about cortisol in The Stubborn Fat Solution), acute pulses of cortisol tend to do good things and be adaptive and chronic elevations in cortisol tend to be bad and be maladaptive.

For example, the morning cortisol pulse helps to promote fat mobilization. In contrast, a chronic elevation of cortisol (especially in the face of high insulin levels) tend to promote visceral fat accumulation. As a non-fitness related topic, acute pulses of cortisol tend to be good for memory (why we often remember stressful situations in such detail) while chronic elevations (as often seen in depression) make memory go down the toilet. And there are endless other examples of where acute cortisol pulses are good and chronic elevations are bad; again see Sapolsky’s book for details.

In any case, dieting in general is a stress. And of course training is a stress. And the more extreme you do of each, the more of a stress occurs. And I suspect that a lot of what is going on when folks try to combine excessive caloric deficits with massive amounts of activity is that cortisol just goes through the roof (there’s another issue I’ll come back to at the end that relates to this). Simply, you get these massive chronic elevations in cortisol levels.

Tangentially, this is also one reason I suspect that various types of cyclical dieting help with some of this issue. For at least brief periods, when calories are raised to maintenance or above, you break the diet/training induced elevations in cortisol. This of course assumes that the person isn’t mentally stressed to the nines by raising calories like that but I’m getting ahead of myself.

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So Why is This Bad?

As noted above, chronic elevations in cortisol can cause a lot of bad things to happen. One of them is simply water retention and I’ve mentioned in previous articles that water retention can mask fat loss, sometimes for extremely extended periods. I talked about this in some detail in The LTDFLE and suspect that some of the ‘fat loss’ is actually just water loss when calories are raised and cortisol mediated water retention dissipates. Reducing total training (volume, frequency, intensity or some combination) does the same thing.

But that’s probably not all of what’s going on. Another effect of chronically elevated cortisol levels is leptin resistance in the brain. I’m not going to talk about leptin endlessly here again, you can read the Bodyweight Regulation Series for more information. When the normal leptin signal to the brain is blocked, a lot of things can go wrong metabolically and I suspect that this is part of the problem.

In this vein, although not necessarily related to cortisol per se, at least one study found that the addition of 6 hours per week of aerobic activity to a very low calorie diet (in this case a protein sparing modified fast) caused a larger decrement in metabolic rate than the diet alone. The body appears to monitor caloric availability (simplistically caloric intake minus output) and if it gets too low, bad things can happen.

This is why I so strongly suggested AGAINST the inclusion of much cardio in The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook; it causes more harm than good. Invariably, the biggest source of failure on that plan is when people ignore my advice and try to do a bunch of cardio. And fat loss stops.

In any case, there are several different plausible mechanisms by which the combination of excessive caloric deficits an large amounts of activity can cause problems. Whether it’s simply cortisol related water retention, a drop in metabolic rate due to leptin resistance or something else, something is going on. From a more practical standpoint, for a lot of people, the combination simply doesn’t work. Mind you, some seem to get away with it but not all.

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An Additional Variable

There is another variable that I have noticed over the years in looking at this issue. As odd as it sounds, it has to do with personality. In discussing this, for example, I’ve often noted that the people who seem to have the biggest issues with the whole lots of cardio/big caloric deficit tend to be a little bit ‘tightly wound’ (to put it politely). A bit less politely they are stress cases.

You can almost ‘hear’ the stress in their typing. Every post has lots of exclamation points and there is this undercurrent of “I MUST LOSE FAT NOW!!!!!!” in their posts. When fat loss stalls for a day, they freak out and want to cut calories or go add another hour of cardio. You can almost ’see’ the tension in them as they sit hammering at the keyboard looking for solutions.

And this is an issue because these types of folks already over-secrete cortisol. As a true oddity, there is the issue of amenorrhea (loss of menstrual cycle). Typically it’s been thought to be related to body fat levels or caloric intake and this is a general cause. But there is often a type of amenorrhea seen in women without any of the normal predisposing factors. In this case, it’s all due to mental stress.

Basically, there is a subset of folks who are already high-level stress cases. They tend to be drawn to harder is better in the first place, tend to be resistant to change (like my client from my early 20’s) and their already high level of cortisol production is simply amplified by the combination of too much activity and too few calories. And suggestions to raise calories and/or reduce activity are invariably met by resistance (again, like my client from ages ago). What they really need is to just chill the hell out.

But invariably the approach that they are intuitively drawn to is the wrong one for them: moderate deficits and moderate activity always work better in those folks. It’s getting them to do it that’s the hard part.

Tangentially, I suspect that the classic hardgainer is of a typical type but that’s another topic for another day.

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Summing Up

So that’s that, a look at one of the oddities of fat loss, the situation where the combination of excessive caloric deficits and excessive amounts of activity seem to hurt rather than help fat loss, along with some gross speculation (and just enough research to make it sound like I know what I’m talking about) on what may be going on.

In a practical sense, of course, most of the background isn’t that relevant. The simple facts for the majority of folks is this: you can either cut calories hard OR do large amounts of activity. But you can’t do both. Well you can do both, you just probably shouldn’t under most circumstances.

Replies

  • hpsnickers1
    hpsnickers1 Posts: 2,783 Member
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/what-defines-cardio-in-terms-of-too-much-qa.html

    What Defines Cardio in Terms of Too Much – Q&A
    Question: This is a follow up question for your last QA. It is often said that too much cardio on a restrictive diet is “bad”.
    With NEAT in mind, I wonder exactly what defines cardio in this setting. Playing with your kids for a few hours(playing ball in the yard etc) is this defined as cardio? Does taking a leisurely stroll with a baby carriage for an hour or two
    per day count as cardio? Or is cardio defined as something else?

    Answer: I think you’re referring to the article I wrote on Why Big Caloric Deficits and and Lots of Activity Can Hurt Fat Loss, although I may have addressed the issue in a Q&A as well (I can’t find it). In any case, your question is one that comes up fairly frequently, especially in the context of the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook approach (where I am adamant that excessive activity/cardio can cause the diet to work far less well than expected). People want to know what and how much of certain types of activities will or won’t cause problems.

    The primary issue here is this: the body appears to be sensing what researchers are calling energy availability, basically energy in (from food) versus energy out (via energy expenditure as discussed in detail in Metabolic Rate Overview). And if energy availability becomes too low, often bad things (in metabolic terms) happen. For example, researcher Ann Louckes has shown that many of the issues that often occur in women in terms of hormones or menstrual cycle dysfunction occur at a threshold of energy availability (and aren’t actually related to body fat percentage as used to be thought).

    In that sense, pretty much all activity can potentially be a problem if that activity results in an energy availability to the body that is too low. Of course the activities you’re listing aren’t really big calorie burners, a walk with a stroller probably only burns a few hundred calories per hour. But done for extended periods it will contribute.

    A related issue, and one I focused on more in Why Big Caloric Deficits and and Lots of Activity Can Hurt Fat Loss can be related to both intensity and volume. In addition to hormonal issues, often the combination of big caloric deficits and excessive activity (either too much activity, too hard of activity, or the combination) can cause some real weirdness with water retention that masks fat loss.


    I’d tend to say that this is more common with more formal ‘cardiovascular’ activities than just activities of daily living. This is just due to the potential for increases in hormones like cortisol; this is especially an issue as the intensity of activity increases. Clearly this isn’t an issue for a leisurely walk but it becomes more of one for more formal cardio activities.

    This isn’t really stopping fat loss mind you, but it does drive people crazy because it makes it appear that the diet is not working. I’d note that this isn’t an issue for everyone, certain physiologies (and especially psychologies) seem relatively more prone to problems with water retention than others. This is why some people can get away with massive amounts of activity and not have issues and others can’t.

    In any case, I hope that answers your question to at least some degree.
  • hpsnickers1
    hpsnickers1 Posts: 2,783 Member
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/too-much-cardio-followup.html

    Too Much Cardio Followup
    Last Friday, I ran a short Q&A addressing the question of “What Defines Cardio in Terms of Too Much?“ You can read that answer there, today I want to do a brief followup to one of the comments/questions from that article since it will let me address a few relevant issues. In the comments Dan C wrote:

    Isn’t to some extent, exactly what The Biggest Loser folks do? Restrictive diet in the 1k-1.5K calorie range, and then extremely high volume, low-medium intensity cardio for hours and hours? Essentially burn 2K or so cals in 4-5 hours of various stupid cardio activities and be 2K or so under Sedentary maintenance calories with their diet? Trying to make a 3.5k+ deficit every day?

    Now, I’ve written a bit about the Biggest Loser previously when I ran Biggest Loser Feedback; that piece was a segue into a brutally long series on Training the Obese Beginner. However, I didn’t really address the question that Dan asked above which is why the Biggest Loser contestants certainly don’t seem to have problems losing massive amounts of weight and fat very quickly. This is relevant as I’ve written previously about Why Big Caloric Deficits and Lots of Activity Can Hurt Fat Loss. So what’s going on?

    Of Initial Body Fat Levels, Leptin, and Metabolic Slowdown


    I’ve written previously about the impact of Initial Body Fat and Body Composition Changes; the precis on that article is that fatter individuals tend to lose more fat (and less lean body mass) while leaner individuals tend to lose less fat and more lean body mass. However, initial body fat levels impact far more than just the proportion of fat and lean body mass lost. And this, I believe, ties into one issue with the Biggest Loser issue.

    As anybody who has read one of my books is aware, the hormone leptin is very much related to body fat levels (caloric intake also plays a role as does the type of body fat but that’s more detail than I want to cover here). Simply, the more body fat you carry, the higher your leptin levels and vice versa. So why is this important?


    Seemingly irrelevantly, there has been a long-held argument in the research literature regarding the presence or absence of an ‘adaptive component’ to metabolic rate slowdown. In short, when people lose weight, their metabolic rate goes down. But sometimes it goes down more than you would predict based on the degree of fat/weight loss. This increase in metabolic rate drop above and beyond what you’d expect is the adaptive component.

    And the argument stems over the fact that while about half of the research studies find an adaptive component during weight loss, the other half does not. Often this causes people to throw their hands up in despair and just throw science out the window but this isn’t the right approach. Rather, you have to look at the details.

    And when you look at the data set as a whole, and start to group the studies into the ones showing an adaptive component versus those that don’t a pattern starts to emerge: the studies of fatter individuals are the ones that don’t find an adaptive component while the ones in leaner (relatively speaking) folks do. Basically, once you’re beyond a certain level of fatness, the body doesn’t fight back as hard.

    In a related vein, one of the early leptin studies was looking at the impact of leptin levels on hunger during a diet. They dieted folks and looked at how and whether or not hunger increased. And what they found is part of the puzzle: so long as leptin was above a certain level (about 20-25 of whatever units leptin is measured in) there was no increase in hunger. Below that level, hunger started to increase.

    And the reason that all of this appears to be happening is that the leptin system in the brain can become saturated; that is, leptin levels above a certain point send no further signal. And that saturation point seems to be around the 20-25 whatevers level. And when you track that against body fat level, the level of fatness that equates to that leptin level is something like 20% body fat in men and around 30% in women (my memory may be failing me here, I haven’t looked at number in a while so don’t swear me to these numbers).

    Basically so long as folks are above that body fat level, a lot of the metabolic perturbations that can occur in leaner folks just aren’t much of an issue. I think that’s part 1 of why the Biggest Loser folks get away with a lot of what they get away with: some of the contestants are starting in the 40-50% body fat ranges. Far far above where the leptin system saturates.

    In contrast, most of the folks for whom I hear of problems with lots of activity and big deficits occurring is in leaner (again, relatively) folks. Exactly the group you’d expect there to be a bigger problem.

    .

    The Sheer Volume of Activity

    The second issue I think is playing a role in the Biggest Loser situation is the sheer volume of activity. As Dan points out, many of the contestants are being put through literally hours of fairly high intensity (at least judging by what’s shown on the show itself) on a daily basis. Four to five hours per day (who knows, maybe more) is not uncommon. It’s stupid but not uncommon.

    And I think that’s the second piece of this puzzle. Judging by some of the data, there seems to be a limit to how much the body can adapt to even the largest and most extreme deficits. For example, in the now classic Minnesota Semi-Starvation Study, the study which found the largest drop in metabolic rate ever measured, the total drop was only about 40% (of which 25% was due to weight loss and the other 15% was the adaptive component). Certainly this is large.

    However, it can still be overwhelmed by a sheer metric ton of activity such that even the metabolic problems caused by the combination of large deficits and high amounts of activity can be overcome. However, again we’re working at the extremes. Usually the folks reporting problems with the combination of lots of activity and big deficits are doing a couple of hours of hard exercise per day (or a lot of low intensity stuff). That’s in addition to starting out leaner.

    But that’s far different than the situation in the Biggest Loser contestants where, come hell or high water, they are doing hours and hours of pretty hard training every day without fail. In this vein, some studies of military folks, often combining sleep deprivation, hours of forced activity, and pretty hard caloric restriction find that body fat levels drop rapidly to the lower limits of survival. But again this is a situation far removed from the average exerciser doing a couple of hours activity per day.

    .

    The Exception that Proves the Rule?

    Although this is somewhat unrelated to the two points above, I think it’s still interesting. Clearly the Biggest Loser contestants are ‘getting away’ with something that would seem to be, on paper at least, bad. Or at least in other less extreme populations (leaner folks doing far less activity) that causes problems. But does that mean that the BL contestants are still doing things optimally? That is, would a less extreme approach lead to even better results?

    In the history of the Biggest Loser show, I can think of at least one or two situations where one of the contestants, usually for medical reasons, was limited to either very small amounts or very low intensity activities. I’m thinking of one specific situation, might have been Biggest Loser Australia, where an older gentleman was put on medical restrictions. It was either a cardiac issue or maybe an embolism.

    And while everyone else on the show was just getting punished with these hours and hours of high-intensity activity and huge caloric restriction, he was limited to pretty low intensity stuff. He also had one of the largest weight/fat losses on the show that year. Might have won it all, I don’t recall.

    In other situations, the folks who got sent home early, and who invariably did far less activity and/or used far less extreme deficits came back at the end of the show having far outstripped the contestants who were subjected to the abject stupidity of Bob and Jillian. Those home-trained folks, the ones combining sane amounts of activity with larger caloric intakes got better results than the folks getting hammered at the extremes.

    Does this prove anything? Of course not. But there just might be a lesson in there.

    .

    Summing Up

    And I think those are the issues worth considering. In extremely overfat folks doing just massive amounts of activity, not only do you have a situation where the metabolic perturbations aren’t as big of an issue (at least not until a certain degree of body fat loss has occurred) but you also have a situation where the sheer amount of activity can overcome any metabolic slowdown that does occur.

    Contrast that to folks starting out leaner who aren’t doing 4-5 hours of hard exercise per day but rather 1-2 and trying to combine that with a big deficit. Not only are their bodies more likely to undergo metabolic adaptation, the volume of activity just isn’t there to overcome it. So things grind to a crawl.

    Finally is the issue that even on the Biggest Loser itself, some of the more amazing transformation came from contestants who, for whatever reason (medical or being booted off the show and training at home) got better results than the folks still on the show who were being slammed with extreme amounts of activity and big caloric deficits.

    Thanks for the comment Dan, you saved me having to think a feature article topic today.
  • livlinde
    livlinde Posts: 39
    bump :)
  • Tzavush
    Tzavush Posts: 389 Member
    bump
  • UpToAnyCool
    UpToAnyCool Posts: 1,673
    thanks. bump for later. :flowerforyou:
  • catlady100
    catlady100 Posts: 154
    Interesting. So what is the optimal amount of cardio i wonder. *sigh*
  • ksv123
    ksv123 Posts: 82 Member
    bump
  • InkInk
    InkInk Posts: 3
    bump
  • fizzy123
    fizzy123 Posts: 220 Member
    bump for later:happy:
  • hpsnickers1
    hpsnickers1 Posts: 2,783 Member
    Interesting. So what is the optimal amount of cardio i wonder. *sigh*

    Just happened to see this response.

    I heard that you can even preserve your lean muscle mass doing reasonable amounts of cardio.

    For HIIT or high intensity: 20-30 minutes.
    For moderate intensity: 45-60 minutes.

    I don't know if I read it in this site. It was possibly another site or even an MFP post.
  • bmontgomery87
    bmontgomery87 Posts: 1,260 Member
    ^^ seems like a decent guideline. I don't go over 30 for HIIT, and usually wrap it up around 40 minutes for steady-pace jogging.
  • Great post! Thanks :)
  • embersfallen
    embersfallen Posts: 534 Member
    bump
  • demery12371
    demery12371 Posts: 253 Member
    bump
  • *BUMP*
  • Thanks for the post!
  • Articeluvsmemphis
    Articeluvsmemphis Posts: 1,987 Member
    BUMP
  • therapyruns
    therapyruns Posts: 164 Member












    .






    ......Basically, there is a subset of folks who are already high-level stress cases. They tend to be drawn to harder is better in the first place, tend to be resistant to change (like my client from my early 20’s) and their already high level of cortisol production is simply amplified by the combination of too much activity and too few calories. And suggestions to raise calories and/or reduce activity are invariably met by resistance (again, like my client from ages ago). What they really need is to just chill the hell out.


    THIS^^^
This discussion has been closed.