Can you lose fat and gain muscle?
freerange
Posts: 1,722 Member
http://stronglifts.com/can-you-build-muscle-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
http://www.musclehack.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
http://www.building-muscle101.com/how-to-lose-body-fat-and-build-muscle.html
http://www.intense-workout.com/same.html
No wonder people are so confused, even the “experts” can’t agree. Personally I follow a low carb type of diet so the second article makes sense to me, but others may be more inclined to agree with what one of the other sites have to say on the subject. I think a little experimenting is in order. If the expense isn’t too much I think I will find a place to get my body fat measured, I’ve read something about the “pod” being the most accurate, I will see if there is any place here in Denver where I can get this done.
I have been exercising, both cardio and weight lifting, for about three months now so I shouldn’t see any of the “beginner” gains and losses that are talked about in all of the articles above. Then I will go back in two months and get my body composition taken again and see what the results are. I will keep everyone updated, if it happens.
http://www.musclehack.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
http://www.building-muscle101.com/how-to-lose-body-fat-and-build-muscle.html
http://www.intense-workout.com/same.html
No wonder people are so confused, even the “experts” can’t agree. Personally I follow a low carb type of diet so the second article makes sense to me, but others may be more inclined to agree with what one of the other sites have to say on the subject. I think a little experimenting is in order. If the expense isn’t too much I think I will find a place to get my body fat measured, I’ve read something about the “pod” being the most accurate, I will see if there is any place here in Denver where I can get this done.
I have been exercising, both cardio and weight lifting, for about three months now so I shouldn’t see any of the “beginner” gains and losses that are talked about in all of the articles above. Then I will go back in two months and get my body composition taken again and see what the results are. I will keep everyone updated, if it happens.
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Replies
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cool that is really interesting. Keep us posted.0
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bumping to read later...0
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You are right, it is confusing! Thanks for posting all the links.0
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Not impossible, but very unlikely from the stuff I've read.0
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the controversy comes in with the semantics.
by that I mean this:
Is it possible to build muscle while losing FAT? Yes, absolutely, although it's difficult, a long process, and requires much dedication to it.
Is it possible to build muscle while losing WEIGHT? No, not really. In order to lose weight you MUST be in a catabolic state (in a calorie deficit), when in a catabolic state the body minimizes muscle growth, concentrating on other things instead (like existing muscle repair, and meeting caloric needs through either fat burning or muscle canabalization).
That's the difference, these two thought processes are OFTEN intertwined and confused with each other, but it's an important distinction to make.
It's also really hard, which is why there aren't more body builders out there.0 -
Thank you for posting -- I personally think you can lose fat and gain muscle. We'll see after I lose the fat
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I have had several BF% checks during my weight loss and it is possible to gain during your loss, but at a very slow rate.
7/13/10 My first scan was at 263lbs - 30.9% BF 182 LBM
9/7/10 Second Scan at 228lbs - 19.5% BF 184 LBM gained 2 lbs LBM
This is where ensuring you have strength training as part of your exercise program is important as through this next scan all I was doing running. Although I didn't change any of my exercise and diet routine from what I was doing between the first two scans, I was running more and began burning muscle instead of my fat.
11/8/10 third scan at 201lbs - 21.5% BF 158 LBM Lost 26 lbs of LBM - OUCH!!
Added weight training after this and took a break from dieting for a few weeks to give my metabolism rest. Calories set to lose 1 lb per week from here on. I was losing at a pace of over 3 lbs. per week prior to this.
12/21/10 fourth scan at 196lbs - 17.6% BF 161.5 LBM Gained 3.5 lbs of LBM
2/15/11 fifth scan at 191lbs - 15.0% BF 162.3 LBM gained 1 lbs of LBM
4/21/11 sixth scan at 183lbs - 10.7% BF 163.4 LBM gained 1 lbs of LBM
The scans I had done were at my health club in which they used a high-end bio-electrical impedance (sp) device that used electrodes hooked to your hand and foot. I believe it to be pretty accurate as it was always consistant with what I was doing.0 -
I have been exercising, both cardio and weight lifting, for about three months now so I shouldn’t see any of the “beginner” gains and losses that are talked about in all of the articles above.
I'd be curious to see your results so keep us updated.
However, the problem with all the articles you listed is they lack context and specifity to you as an individual. Whilst they talk about "beginners" they do not really define it properly which can cause much confusion. In addition, much of this debate is about semantics as SHBOSS correctly stated.
In weight training terms I suspect you fall into the beginner category unless you have been working out like a demon. It isn't so much the amount of gym time as where you are respective to your adaptive ceiling / genetic upper limit. Most people, despite being in and out of gyms for years will still fall very much within the beginner category as they are nowhere near their potential. I think as a rough guide a year of consistent training week after week with no extended breaks over the course of a year with a focused routine will see a move to intermediate.
I suspect you will see a loss of fat and an increase in muscle mass. It is entirely possible with over fat / new to resistance training / beginners or formerly athletic people coming back to training after a layoff (thanks to muscle memory)
When people say it is impossible or very hard to achieve they are talking about concurrent fat loss with muscle gain (in other words losing a 1lb of fat and gaining a 1lb of muscle at the same time) over any kind of extended period. Certainly you could say lose 16 lbs of fat and gain 9lbs of muscle over a 14 week period despite being in a calorie deficit the whole time if you fall within very specific criteria (generally overweight and new to training)
If you are approaching any kind of leaness or have a reasonable amount of training under your belt then this will not really be an option unless you use a specific strategy balancing anabolic days (where you overfeed) with catabolic days (where you underfeed.) CKD diets or low carb days followed by refeeds can work very well in this context. It certainly won't happen by accident though.
Good luck.0 -
I have had several BF% checks during my weight loss and it is possible to gain during your loss, but at a very slow rate.
7/13/10 My first scan was at 263lbs - 30.9% BF 182 LBM
9/7/10 Second Scan at 228lbs - 19.5% BF 184 LBM gained 2 lbs LBM
This is where ensuring you have strength training as part of your exercise program is important as through this next scan all I was doing running. Although I didn't change any of my exercise and diet routine from what I was doing between the first two scans, I was running more and began burning muscle instead of my fat.
11/8/10 third scan at 201lbs - 21.5% BF 158 LBM Lost 26 lbs of LBM - OUCH!!
Added weight training after this and took a break from dieting for a few weeks to give my metabolism rest. Calories set to lose 1 lb per week from here on. I was losing at a pace of over 3 lbs. per week prior to this.
12/21/10 fourth scan at 196lbs - 17.6% BF 161.5 LBM Gained 3.5 lbs of LBM
2/15/11 fifth scan at 191lbs - 15.0% BF 162.3 LBM gained 1 lbs of LBM
4/21/11 sixth scan at 183lbs - 10.7% BF 163.4 LBM gained 1 lbs of LBM
The scans I had done were at my health club in which they used a high-end bio-electrical impedance (sp) device that used electrodes hooked to your hand and foot. I believe it to be pretty accurate as it was always consistant with what I was doing.
Holy [insert word I'm not allowed to say]!!!!!
First, that's soooo informational that you did those scans - I wish I'd have done something similar. Second - that's VERY dramatic!!! I've been wishing that I had added weight training from the begining instead of so much cardio and focus on weight loss. Because now I'm trying to get that muscle back (and more). I think what you're information really helps support is the idea of doing weight training all along. Even if you're not adding a lot of muscle, you are at least going to help retain it!!! Lift people!! Lift!!0 -
tag for later0
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I have had several BF% checks during my weight loss and it is possible to gain during your loss, but at a very slow rate.
7/13/10 My first scan was at 263lbs - 30.9% BF 182 LBM
9/7/10 Second Scan at 228lbs - 19.5% BF 184 LBM gained 2 lbs LBM
This is where ensuring you have strength training as part of your exercise program is important as through this next scan all I was doing running. Although I didn't change any of my exercise and diet routine from what I was doing between the first two scans, I was running more and began burning muscle instead of my fat.
11/8/10 third scan at 201lbs - 21.5% BF 158 LBM Lost 26 lbs of LBM - OUCH!!
Added weight training after this and took a break from dieting for a few weeks to give my metabolism rest. Calories set to lose 1 lb per week from here on. I was losing at a pace of over 3 lbs. per week prior to this.
12/21/10 fourth scan at 196lbs - 17.6% BF 161.5 LBM Gained 3.5 lbs of LBM
2/15/11 fifth scan at 191lbs - 15.0% BF 162.3 LBM gained 1 lbs of LBM
4/21/11 sixth scan at 183lbs - 10.7% BF 163.4 LBM gained 1 lbs of LBM
The scans I had done were at my health club in which they used a high-end bio-electrical impedance (sp) device that used electrodes hooked to your hand and foot. I believe it to be pretty accurate as it was always consistant with what I was doing.
Holy [insert word I'm not allowed to say]!!!!!
First, that's soooo informational that you did those scans - I wish I'd have done something similar. Second - that's VERY dramatic!!! I've been wishing that I had added weight training from the begining instead of so much cardio and focus on weight loss. Because now I'm trying to get that muscle back (and more). I think what you're information really helps support is the idea of doing weight training all along. Even if you're not adding a lot of muscle, you are at least going to help retain it!!! Lift people!! Lift!!
Yeah, unfortunately a lot of people (like me) tend to learn things the hard way - most want a quick fix to lose the fat. At first, I was in denial of that third scan but ultimately realized it was true - I was getting skinny fat in a hurry. After the hard lesson learned I started paying more attention to likes of SHBoss, msf74 and other more educated peeps on the forum and corrected my poor dieting habits. Hopefully, others can learn from my experience. For truth on healthy dieting check the links in my signature
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The important thing to realize, I think, is that you don't have to lose muscle WHILE you lose fat. As long as you keep exercising your whole body during your weight loss-oriented exercise efforts, you won't catabolize your muscle cells, and your body will get the "double-dip" of burning calories to support your lean muscle mass while also melting away fat stores.0
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bump!0
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Thanks for the post, very helpful0
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Bump0
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Is it possible to build muscle while losing FAT? Yes, absolutely, although it's difficult, a long process, and requires much dedication to it.
With all due respect to SHBoss1673, who I know is very knowledgeable and a big contributor here, my experience seems to contradict that this is "difficult". In the last several months I have gained about 20 lbs of LBM and reduced my body fat % from 23% to 17%. I have done this primarily through lifting weights (see stronglifts.com for my program) and eating 35ish% protein. I do not fluctuate my eating on and off like body builders, I eat a little above the calorie recommendations of MFP, and I am not a total puritan about my eating. Granted I have the "beginners" strength training effect, but I would wager the average person here concerned about losing weight probably falls into that category as well.
So that is my bottom line that I hope can inspire you: Lift heavy weights regularly, eat protein, don't obsess too much and watch the fat roll off and the muscle build on.
Best of luck to you all!0 -
I have been exercising, both cardio and weight lifting, for about three months now so I shouldn’t see any of the “beginner” gains and losses that are talked about in all of the articles above.
I'd be curious to see your results so keep us updated.
However, the problem with all the articles you listed is they lack context and specifity to you as an individual. Whilst they talk about "beginners" they do not really define it properly which can cause much confusion. In addition, much of this debate is about semantics as SHBOSS correctly stated.
In weight training terms I suspect you fall into the beginner category unless you have been working out like a demon. It isn't so much the amount of gym time as where you are respective to your adaptive ceiling / genetic upper limit. Most people, despite being in and out of gyms for years will still fall very much within the beginner category as they are nowhere near their potential. I think as a rough guide a year of consistent training week after week with no extended breaks over the course of a year with a focused routine will see a move to intermediate.
I suspect you will see a loss of fat and an increase in muscle mass. It is entirely possible with over fat / new to resistance training / beginners or formerly athletic people coming back to training after a layoff (thanks to muscle memory)
When people say it is impossible or very hard to achieve they are talking about concurrent fat loss with muscle gain (in other words losing a 1lb of fat and gaining a 1lb of muscle at the same time) over any kind of extended period. Certainly you could say lose 16 lbs of fat and gain 9lbs of muscle over a 14 week period despite being in a calorie deficit the whole time if you fall within very specific criteria (generally overweight and new to training)
If you are approaching any kind of leaness or have a reasonable amount of training under your belt then this will not really be an option unless you use a specific strategy balancing anabolic days (where you overfeed) with catabolic days (where you underfeed.) CKD diets or low carb days followed by refeeds can work very well in this context. It certainly won't happen by accident though.
Good luck.
You’re right articles are just that, but the links of the studies do go into it more in detail. And yes I’m probably still a beginner, but I gathered that the losses and gains are in the first few weeks of starting, we will see.
Just a side note, I’m about half way to my weight loss goal, which isn’t all that important, because by the time things are said and done, I’m going for body composition more than a number on a scale. But for now the number on the scale is the easiest way to keep track. But having lost about half of what I want to might indicate I probably won’t have any “beginners” weight loss, like most of us do when first starting a weight loss diet. As I get closer to my goal, body fat% will become more important to me, and I will be (cost not being prohibitive) measuring more often to make sure my diet and lifting is accomplishing what I want it to.0 -
If the expense isn’t too much I think I will find a place to get my body fat measured, I’ve read something about the “pod” being the most accurate, I will see if there is any place here in Denver where I can get this done.
I use an Omron Body Fat analyzer that was $25 on drugstore.com. It is not perfect, but if you treat it like a scale - measure at the same time and circumstance, it works pretty well.0 -
Is it possible to build muscle while losing FAT? Yes, absolutely, although it's difficult, a long process, and requires much dedication to it.
With all due respect to SHBoss1673, who I know is very knowledgeable and a big contributor here, my experience seems to contradict that this is "difficult". In the last several months I have gained about 20 lbs of LBM and reduced my body fat % from 23% to 17%. I have done this primarily through lifting weights (see stronglifts.com for my program) and eating 35ish% protein. I do not fluctuate my eating on and off like body builders, I eat a little above the calorie recommendations of MFP, and I am not a total puritan about my eating. Granted I have the "beginners" strength training effect, but I would wager the average person here concerned about losing weight probably falls into that category as well.
So that is my bottom line that I hope can inspire you: Lift heavy weights regularly, eat protein, don't obsess too much and watch the fat roll off and the muscle build on.
Best of luck to you all!
This is a prank right?0 -
the controversy comes in with the semantics.
by that I mean this:
Is it possible to build muscle while losing FAT? Yes, absolutely, although it's difficult, a long process, and requires much dedication to it.
Is it possible to build muscle while losing WEIGHT? No, not really. In order to lose weight you MUST be in a catabolic state (in a calorie deficit), when in a catabolic state the body minimizes muscle growth, concentrating on other things instead (like existing muscle repair, and meeting caloric needs through either fat burning or muscle canabalization).
That's the difference, these two thought processes are OFTEN intertwined and confused with each other, but it's an important distinction to make.
good answer0 -
Sure is! Flexes guns :bigsmile:0
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Is it possible to build muscle while losing FAT? Yes, absolutely, although it's difficult, a long process, and requires much dedication to it.
With all due respect to SHBoss1673, who I know is very knowledgeable and a big contributor here, my experience seems to contradict that this is "difficult". In the last several months I have gained about 20 lbs of LBM and reduced my body fat % from 23% to 17%. I have done this primarily through lifting weights (see stronglifts.com for my program) and eating 35ish% protein. I do not fluctuate my eating on and off like body builders, I eat a little above the calorie recommendations of MFP, and I am not a total puritan about my eating. Granted I have the "beginners" strength training effect, but I would wager the average person here concerned about losing weight probably falls into that category as well.
So that is my bottom line that I hope can inspire you: Lift heavy weights regularly, eat protein, don't obsess too much and watch the fat roll off and the muscle build on.
Best of luck to you all!
This is a prank right?
:laugh: :laugh:0 -
Twenty pounds? That's crazy remarkable if it's accurate. What method are you using to measure body fat percentage? How many months are we talking here?With all due respect to SHBoss1673, who I know is very knowledgeable and a big contributor here, my experience seems to contradict that this is "difficult". In the last several months I have gained about 20 lbs of LBM and reduced my body fat % from 23% to 17%. I have done this primarily through lifting weights (see stronglifts.com for my program) and eating 35ish% protein. I do not fluctuate my eating on and off like body builders, I eat a little above the calorie recommendations of MFP, and I am not a total puritan about my eating. Granted I have the "beginners" strength training effect, but I would wager the average person here concerned about losing weight probably falls into that category as well.
So that is my bottom line that I hope can inspire you: Lift heavy weights regularly, eat protein, don't obsess too much and watch the fat roll off and the muscle build on.
Best of luck to you all!0 -
Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle - Tom Venuto that is all please continue0
-
Is it possible to build muscle while losing FAT? Yes, absolutely, although it's difficult, a long process, and requires much dedication to it.
With all due respect to SHBoss1673, who I know is very knowledgeable and a big contributor here, my experience seems to contradict that this is "difficult". In the last several months I have gained about 20 lbs of LBM and reduced my body fat % from 23% to 17%. I have done this primarily through lifting weights (see stronglifts.com for my program) and eating 35ish% protein. I do not fluctuate my eating on and off like body builders, I eat a little above the calorie recommendations of MFP, and I am not a total puritan about my eating. Granted I have the "beginners" strength training effect, but I would wager the average person here concerned about losing weight probably falls into that category as well.
So that is my bottom line that I hope can inspire you: Lift heavy weights regularly, eat protein, don't obsess too much and watch the fat roll off and the muscle build on.
Best of luck to you all!
This is a prank right?
SHBoss1673, No. It should be noted, like you said, my overall weight has increased during this time. I am also relying on an Omron scanner for BF %, so give or take some margin of error for that.
Essentially I am following the program from http://stronglifts.com/, and it has been effective for me as the site author claims.
Since you are skeptical, perhaps my math is wrong? I am certainly open to that, and would like to know if this is the case. Here is the detail I am using (Note, in looking back at my #'s, I started at 21.3% BF, not 23% - apologize for misreporting that):
I started at 218.5 lbs and 21.3% BF - LBM 172.5
today I weigh 232.2 lbs and 17% BF - LBM - 192.7
Do you see something wrong with my interpretation?0 -
Twenty pounds? That's crazy remarkable if it's accurate. What method are you using to measure body fat percentage? How many months are we talking here?
I started in mid to late November last year.
I use an Omron scanner for BF %. It is also pretty clear in the mirror my body has changed pretty radically.0 -
Yeah, I'm going to have to wave the BS flag on 20 lbs of LBM in a few months. I know a couple of bodybuilder guys that can't even come close to achieving that and their on roids.
You're relying on an inaccurate or malfunctioning bioimpedence machine to calc your BF. I have the same OMRON and it can fluctuate 1-4% in a week period.
I personally did the Stronglift program for 3 months and saw no major improvement vs a regular workout.0 -
Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle - Tom Venuto that is all please continue
What he said. More specifically, his Holy Grail program: http://www.holygrailbodytransformation.com/0 -
Yeah, I'm going to have to wave the BS flag on 20 lbs of LBM in a few months. I know a couple of bodybuilder guys that can't even come close to achieving that and their on roids.
You're relying on an inaccurate or malfunctioning bioimpedence machine to calc your BF. I have the same OMRON and it can fluctuate 1-4% in a week period.
I personally did the Stronglift program for 3 months and saw no major improvement vs a regular workout.
I use the Omron first thing in the morning when I wake and get a pretty consistent result.
Sorry the program did not work for you. I am getting great results and wanted to share. There are many others getting great results.
I hope to inspire others with the positive effects I have seen in myself. You can be a doubter, or you can get to work with whatever works for you.0 -
I can personally vouch for both losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time. The following are my results over 6 months of pure strength training without cardio. I lift three times per week for about 45min to an hour and perform only 5 lifts over the course of a week. Admittedly, fat loss is slower using only strength training. I could speed up my fat loss by doing cardio, but then I would also compromise my recovery and strength gains. Another factor is also the kind of lifting that you do. You need to stress you body HARD to pull this off with big compound muscle movements, bicep curls aren’t going to cut it.
Body Stats:
Body Weight = 246lbs - 225lbs (net loss of 21lbs)
BF % = 35% - 27% (lost 8% body fat)
Fat Mass = 87lbs - 60lbs (lost 27lbs of fat)
Fat-free Mass = 159lbs - 165lbs (gained 6lbs of muscle)
Waist = 44in – 40in (lost 4in off waistline)
NOTE: I use the U.S. Navy formula to calculate my body fat percentage using body measurements.
Lift Stats:
Squat = 185lbs - 340lbs
Bench = 95lbs - 200lbs
Deadlift = 135lbs - 315lbs
Press = 65lbs - 125lbs
Row = 65lbs - 140lbs
The OP mentioned that after 3 months they are no longer susceptible to beginner gains/losses… that is BS. You are a beginner in the strength world until you can no longer make daily progression in your lifts, which typically means you are squatting around 1.5x your body weight as I currently am and will need to switch to making weekly progress here soon.
And what is with all of the references to bodybuilders? Bodybuilder lift for size (appearance) not strength (most of them that is) Jay Cutler is massively strong for a bodybuilder, but he will never outlift Mariusz Pudzianowski (world strongest man), who’s muscles are smaller to the eye. In other words, muscle size is not the same thing as muscle mass. Size and strength are determined by two different types of hypertrophy which are produced at different rep ranges and intensities0
This discussion has been closed.
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