Crash Diets May Be Most Effective Weight Loss Technique
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All diets are rubbish. Designed for money-making purposes only, they consist of unrealistic and unsustainable ways of eating. No surprises that they dont work. The industry wouldnt be worth the billions that it is if people didnt think they 'had' to try new diets.
Avoid them.
Eat like you have done, just maybe a bit healthier and a bit less of in quantity.0 -
Of course. It makes perfect sense. The process of losing weight is one of motivation and psychological discipline. It's much much easier to remain focused for 18 weeks compared to 36 weeks. That's why all diets fail after 5 years, people lose their mental discipline.
Really? All diets fail?
I would say the diet succeeded. The weight came off and stayed off long enough to know it's not just water weight or similar. It's the maintenance strategy (or the fact that there was none) that is the failure.
Besides. There are people who manage to keep weight off for 5 years and more. They're a minority, but they do exist.
Just ignore him. All diets fail according to him. No one knows anything. The only people that supposedly succeed are the ones that read one book.
All died protocols fail five years out, because people do not keep them up. I started a thread on this not long ago and it should be.
There was a review study out of UCLA on this.
And I see M 27 is at it again. He must have finished his EMT shift. Hey, you never did get back to me on discussing Guyton's text book with all your doctor friends.
Did they ridicule it and dismiss it to the degree that you do?
Just curious.
Would they ridicule the book itself? Probably not.
Would they ridicule your understanding of it? Absolutely.
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For me yes, maintenance is the hardest part. I've been in maintenance for 3.5 years and it was hellaver learning curve from weight loss.
Done the crash diet things - never worked. I needed a re-education in food and exercise and that's what has worked for me from MFP. I can never 'un-learn' the calories in a block of cheese or the true damage that second unecessary plate is going to do to my waistline, and I've also learned that I really quite like exercise...
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I haven't really read anyone else's posts just yet, but I do know that that article didn't sound very empirical at all. Also, I didn't feel it really told us anything that we didn't already know. What I got out of it was that those who crashed dieted lost weight faster, but apparently gained it back at the same rate as the group who "gradually" dieted. Didn't we already know this? It would be nice if the article told us how many calories or macros they were restricting to in both groups and how many they ate after the diet phase was over with. Otherwise, this article just seems kind of like a waste of time for someone to write.0
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I mean, I can see the point that the article is trying to make. But this study has a very narrow scope. It does not approach at all how health is impacted by crash dieting, only the effectiveness of weight loss. Yes, rapid results can be motivating, but to truly effectively maintain weight loss, you have to be motivated to do it for the sake of your health and not your appearance. Rapid weight loss puts an inordinate amount of strain on liver, kidneys, and other vital organs.0
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I'm curious as to if these people were restricted to certain exercises. That's a big factor. Were their calorie goals just straight calories or net?
I mean...all I really get from the article is that it's supposedly easier to stick with a diet for a short period of time when you see faster results (which makes sense), but that essentially you're greatly restricting yourself for something you aren't even going to maintain.
If the majority of them failed to maintain equally in both groups, the "crash diet group" went through serious restrictions for the exact same results in the end. All they really got was momentary results. Seems more like an advertisement for "restrict yourself quickly for fast results you'll keep for a short period of time." I think we all know that is possible but we don't desire it.
I also wonder how they were monitored to ensure they were only eating that amount. Mentally, it's much easier to cheat when you think you have an extended period of time to achieve your diet goals. Both groups boil down to people aiming to lose over a certain period rather than aiming to make a lifestyle change.
Why didn't they include a way to 'Like' other posts in this new set up?
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Ah salute to anybody who sheds the weight and keeps it off.
As for me, crash dieting is a no go. If mere weight loss is the only concern, go ahead.
I lost a bunch of weight but wanted peak fitness and optimal health, and that meant I needed to eat big, train smart and maintain a reasonable deficit.
I did not want to go from being a fat guy to some skinny , little guy.
I wanted more muscle and to maintain weight while losing fat.
^^^^^^^^^
This is me after 3 years of maintaining weight...
You look fantastic! Very nicely done!0 -
LumberJacck wrote: »Not sure if it's been given in this thread but here is the full 19 page article https://minerva-access.unimelb.edu.au/bitstream/handle/11343/41262/Protocol_version_5_13 07 13_no_endnote.pdf?sequence=1
That's helpful but is the study protocol not the results - full text anyone ? The protocol says they intended to measure body composition (by impedance).
My academic library doesn't subscribe to that journal.
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I see once again you insist on mentioning that I am an EMT. Apparently you think that's insulting me. You're just pathetic. Not sure why you have to continue to mention that but you're a joke.Of course. It makes perfect sense. The process of losing weight is one of motivation and psychological discipline. It's much much easier to remain focused for 18 weeks compared to 36 weeks. That's why all diets fail after 5 years, people lose their mental discipline.
Really? All diets fail?
I would say the diet succeeded. The weight came off and stayed off long enough to know it's not just water weight or similar. It's the maintenance strategy (or the fact that there was none) that is the failure.
Besides. There are people who manage to keep weight off for 5 years and more. They're a minority, but they do exist.
Just ignore him. All diets fail according to him. No one knows anything. The only people that supposedly succeed are the ones that read one book.
All died protocols fail five years out, because people do not keep them up. I started a thread on this not long ago and it should be.
There was a review study out of UCLA on this.
And I see M 27 is at it again. He must have finished his EMT shift. Hey, you never did get back to me on discussing Guyton's text book with all your doctor friends.
Did they ridicule it and dismiss it to the degree that you do?
Just curious.
I see that you are quite a bit older than I suspected you of being. That makes your reluctance to embrace real science all the more puzzling and disturbing.
And again, you still aren't willing to show anyone that you've accomplished anything. Just repeatedly pushing that book with your fake profile picture. Everyone should forever hit the spam button on your posts.
Steve has accomplish being my entertainment when he comments. That is good enough for me.
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richardheath wrote: »And logically, that's the only conclusion that makes sense, because maintenance is determined by how you eat and exercise during maintenance, not how you lost weight in the first place. To think that you'll somehow be more or less likely to exercise and to hit your calorie target during maintenance based on how you dropped weight is just nonsense. What you did last year or what you called your diet last year is not going to affect what you do or don't do today - how could it?
At the end of the day, it's all pretty simple to me. Figure out what works best for you to lose weight, lose the weight, and then figure out what works best for you to maintain the losses or otherwise make progress towards your long-term goals.
Well, actually I would say that if one develops healthy habits during weight loss then one is more likely to follow those same habits (with slight tweaks) during maintenance. I know that I basically eat the same foods as I did; but I learnt to manage portions, add veggies, move more etc which I have continued for 2 + years of maintenance.
The thing is, the habits you listed off have nothing to do with how aggressive your calorie deficit is. You still manage portions on an aggressive diet - actually, it's quite a bit more difficult to manage portions on an aggressive diet than on one where you cut over the span of years. I don't see how less aggressive calorie targets somehow teach you to add more vegetables to your diet, relative to more aggressive calorie target diets. Exercise... the same. In short, I'm not really seeing seeing a relationship between any of those factors and how aggressively someone sets out to lose weight.
At least for me, I would not want to eat the same foods when cutting as when bulking, because I purposefully eat a lot of very satiating foods when losing weight and I have way more calories to play with during other times. Nor would it make a lot of sense for my exercise routine to be exactly the same. Yes, there may be some basic habits that carry over, but the overall routines are very different. Which is why to me, you want to figure out what's best for losing weight... and then separately figure out what's best for maintaining weight. Trying to pick a way of losing that helps you maintain is just illogical and confusing the issues.
Because by aggressively cutting you have to make major, sweeping changes to your diet. If you are eating 400-800 calories per day, you aren't going to be eating "normally" by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, most of these Doctor-managed VLCD diets will have you using meal replacement shakes to ensure you continue to get all your micronutrients. You aren't going to carry on eating this way once you do finally get to maintenance.
By doing a more moderate calorie deficit you can still eat your "normal" foods - just less of them, make some lower cal substitutions here or there etc. When you get to maintenance, you just carry on. At least that's the way I see it.
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richardheath wrote: »richardheath wrote: »And logically, that's the only conclusion that makes sense, because maintenance is determined by how you eat and exercise during maintenance, not how you lost weight in the first place. To think that you'll somehow be more or less likely to exercise and to hit your calorie target during maintenance based on how you dropped weight is just nonsense. What you did last year or what you called your diet last year is not going to affect what you do or don't do today - how could it?
At the end of the day, it's all pretty simple to me. Figure out what works best for you to lose weight, lose the weight, and then figure out what works best for you to maintain the losses or otherwise make progress towards your long-term goals.
Well, actually I would say that if one develops healthy habits during weight loss then one is more likely to follow those same habits (with slight tweaks) during maintenance. I know that I basically eat the same foods as I did; but I learnt to manage portions, add veggies, move more etc which I have continued for 2 + years of maintenance.
The thing is, the habits you listed off have nothing to do with how aggressive your calorie deficit is. You still manage portions on an aggressive diet - actually, it's quite a bit more difficult to manage portions on an aggressive diet than on one where you cut over the span of years. I don't see how less aggressive calorie targets somehow teach you to add more vegetables to your diet, relative to more aggressive calorie target diets. Exercise... the same. In short, I'm not really seeing seeing a relationship between any of those factors and how aggressively someone sets out to lose weight.
At least for me, I would not want to eat the same foods when cutting as when bulking, because I purposefully eat a lot of very satiating foods when losing weight and I have way more calories to play with during other times. Nor would it make a lot of sense for my exercise routine to be exactly the same. Yes, there may be some basic habits that carry over, but the overall routines are very different. Which is why to me, you want to figure out what's best for losing weight... and then separately figure out what's best for maintaining weight. Trying to pick a way of losing that helps you maintain is just illogical and confusing the issues.
Because by aggressively cutting you have to make major, sweeping changes to your diet. If you are eating 400-800 calories per day, you aren't going to be eating "normally" by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, most of these Doctor-managed VLCD diets will have you using meal replacement shakes to ensure you continue to get all your micronutrients. You aren't going to carry on eating this way once you do finally get to maintenance.
By doing a more moderate calorie deficit you can still eat your "normal" foods - just less of them, make some lower cal substitutions here or there etc. When you get to maintenance, you just carry on. At least that's the way I see it.
You say that, but there are studies that look at people post-VLCDs and found they had at least as much success in maintaining their losses as people who followed a basic hypocaloric diet. I think we like to think that by doing things a certain way you're increasing your odds of long-term success, but I don't think the evidence really supports that conclusion. Frankly, the skills one has to "learn" to lose weight are pretty minimal, and in my experience developing habits that support your weight loss is what really helps, rather than learning skills. That said, habits are pretty easily broken over just the span of a few weeks, which for some people is about the length of a single vacation. That's why I tend to settle on people just doing what works best for them to lose weight responsibly, and hopefully having a plan for maintenance (which can be completely different, as long as they follow it).0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »
I see once again you insist on mentioning that I am an EMT. Apparently you think that's insulting me. You're just pathetic. Not sure why you have to continue to mention that but you're a joke.Of course. It makes perfect sense. The process of losing weight is one of motivation and psychological discipline. It's much much easier to remain focused for 18 weeks compared to 36 weeks. That's why all diets fail after 5 years, people lose their mental discipline.
Really? All diets fail?
I would say the diet succeeded. The weight came off and stayed off long enough to know it's not just water weight or similar. It's the maintenance strategy (or the fact that there was none) that is the failure.
Besides. There are people who manage to keep weight off for 5 years and more. They're a minority, but they do exist.
Just ignore him. All diets fail according to him. No one knows anything. The only people that supposedly succeed are the ones that read one book.
All died protocols fail five years out, because people do not keep them up. I started a thread on this not long ago and it should be.
There was a review study out of UCLA on this.
And I see M 27 is at it again. He must have finished his EMT shift. Hey, you never did get back to me on discussing Guyton's text book with all your doctor friends.
Did they ridicule it and dismiss it to the degree that you do?
Just curious.
I see that you are quite a bit older than I suspected you of being. That makes your reluctance to embrace real science all the more puzzling and disturbing.
And again, you still aren't willing to show anyone that you've accomplished anything. Just repeatedly pushing that book with your fake profile picture. Everyone should forever hit the spam button on your posts.
Steve has accomplish being my entertainment when he comments. That is good enough for me.
I guess it's good that they don't have a "Report-for being a general annoyance to humanity," then. We can't have funny-time taken from us.
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Curious that certain posters protest against the dissemination of the world-standard textbook on human physiology. I continue to post because for every one of the these people- usually fitness buffs- there are (hopefully) dozens and dozens of people who read these forums and welcome an infusion of real science and facts into the discussion, and who recognize the tactics being used against me.
Here is a link to the free download
https://kickass.to/guyton-and-hall-textbook-of-medical-physiology-12e-pdf-unitedvrg-t8879304.html
There is a lot of nonsense on the internet about weight loss and how to go about it. Guyton's is a relatively easy read and is an invaluable reference for those who want the truth.
Unfortunately, the last thing that many internet diet-faddists or fitness gurus want is someone checking up on what they say with- gasp!- the facts.
Many resort to ad hominem attacks to scare off people who really know what they are talking about.
Very sad.
You ever see that episode of the Cosby show where Vanessa brings home her fiance? Dr. Huxtable explains to the young man that he was presented to the family like a gourmet dinner on a filthy trash can lid. It doesn't matter what your message is, "Steve." You're presenting it on a trash can lid.
-1 -
Curious that certain posters protest against the dissemination of the world-standard textbook on human physiology. I continue to post because for every one of the these people- usually fitness buffs- there are (hopefully) dozens and dozens of people who read these forums and welcome an infusion of real science and facts into the discussion, and who recognize the tactics being used against me.
Here is a link to the free download
https://kickass.to/guyton-and-hall-textbook-of-medical-physiology-12e-pdf-unitedvrg-t8879304.html
There is a lot of nonsense on the internet about weight loss and how to go about it. Guyton's is a relatively easy read and is an invaluable reference for those who want the truth.
Unfortunately, the last thing that many internet diet-faddists or fitness gurus want is someone checking up on what they say with- gasp!- the facts.
Many resort to ad hominem attacks to scare off people who really know what they are talking about.
Very sad.
Fitness buffs LOL that a new one to me.
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Curious that certain posters protest against the dissemination of the world-standard textbook on human physiology. I continue to post because for every one of the these people- usually fitness buffs- there are (hopefully) dozens and dozens of people who read these forums and welcome an infusion of real science and facts into the discussion, and who recognize the tactics being used against me.
Here is a link to the free download
<snip link>
There is a lot of nonsense on the internet about weight loss and how to go about it. Guyton's is a relatively easy read and is an invaluable reference for those who want the truth.
Unfortunately, the last thing that many internet diet-faddists or fitness gurus want is someone checking up on what they say with- gasp!- the facts.
Many resort to ad hominem attacks to scare off people who really know what they are talking about.
Very sad.
Isn't that an illegal torrent of a copyrighted work? I know that because I have a hardcopy of Guyton's sitting on my shelf right now...
I guess I'll let the mods decide.0 -
If it doesn't violate copyright that's fine. It's a handy reference. It's not support for your arguments for what I can see though.Is that the latest edition? The second latest edition is downloadable. I just did a quick google to come up with the site I linked to. There are other sites out there with the earlier edition, and I certainly do not condone piracy.
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richardheath wrote: »richardheath wrote: »And logically, that's the only conclusion that makes sense, because maintenance is determined by how you eat and exercise during maintenance, not how you lost weight in the first place. To think that you'll somehow be more or less likely to exercise and to hit your calorie target during maintenance based on how you dropped weight is just nonsense. What you did last year or what you called your diet last year is not going to affect what you do or don't do today - how could it?
At the end of the day, it's all pretty simple to me. Figure out what works best for you to lose weight, lose the weight, and then figure out what works best for you to maintain the losses or otherwise make progress towards your long-term goals.
Well, actually I would say that if one develops healthy habits during weight loss then one is more likely to follow those same habits (with slight tweaks) during maintenance. I know that I basically eat the same foods as I did; but I learnt to manage portions, add veggies, move more etc which I have continued for 2 + years of maintenance.
The thing is, the habits you listed off have nothing to do with how aggressive your calorie deficit is. You still manage portions on an aggressive diet - actually, it's quite a bit more difficult to manage portions on an aggressive diet than on one where you cut over the span of years. I don't see how less aggressive calorie targets somehow teach you to add more vegetables to your diet, relative to more aggressive calorie target diets. Exercise... the same. In short, I'm not really seeing seeing a relationship between any of those factors and how aggressively someone sets out to lose weight.
At least for me, I would not want to eat the same foods when cutting as when bulking, because I purposefully eat a lot of very satiating foods when losing weight and I have way more calories to play with during other times. Nor would it make a lot of sense for my exercise routine to be exactly the same. Yes, there may be some basic habits that carry over, but the overall routines are very different. Which is why to me, you want to figure out what's best for losing weight... and then separately figure out what's best for maintaining weight. Trying to pick a way of losing that helps you maintain is just illogical and confusing the issues.
Because by aggressively cutting you have to make major, sweeping changes to your diet. If you are eating 400-800 calories per day, you aren't going to be eating "normally" by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, most of these Doctor-managed VLCD diets will have you using meal replacement shakes to ensure you continue to get all your micronutrients. You aren't going to carry on eating this way once you do finally get to maintenance.
By doing a more moderate calorie deficit you can still eat your "normal" foods - just less of them, make some lower cal substitutions here or there etc. When you get to maintenance, you just carry on. At least that's the way I see it.
... I think we like to think that by doing things a certain way you're increasing your odds of long-term success, but I don't think the evidence really supports that conclusion. Frankly, the skills one has to "learn" to lose weight are pretty minimal, and in my experience developing habits that support your weight loss is what really helps, rather than learning skills. ...
Now maybe that might be true for some, especially those who have so little to lose they can do it months, or those who are able to be super strict with themselves, but I needed to find a way to eat that I would STICK WITH for a long, long time -- the time it takes to lose over 100 pounds. So, eating "normally" yet less of it, is what works. Other plans I've tried have caused me to give up. I think I can keep this up, adding some calories when I'm satisfied with my overall loss.
IOW, long term success for me is only going to be possible if I can stick with the losing weight part of the plan.
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I'd have been interested in seeing a study of people who have lost 12% and kept it off for more than 3 years - to see how they did it. Whether the ones who successfully maintained for many years were ones who started their process with a crash diet, or made conscious lifestyle changes... I'm not sure that this study told me anything surprising.0
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