Amazing new findings about ED - could be curable with....antibiotics!
SpockAdventures
Posts: 103 Member
I am SO EXCITED to read this recent discovery...A kind of bacteria that can live in the stomach could potentially be the cause for eating disorders and could be curable with antibiotics, saving who knows how many people from years and years of psychological torture! Of course you never want to dismiss mental health issues that arise from eating disorders, but to think we could treat it so simply would be incredible!
I just wanted to share the article so others may find as much hope in it as I did!
(Just for clarification, I do not have an ED, but I watched a close friend come very very close to starving to death from anorexia)
[url=" https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/science-ticker/gut-bacteria-protein-linked-anorexia-and-bulimiahttp://"]Article Here![/url]
I just wanted to share the article so others may find as much hope in it as I did!
(Just for clarification, I do not have an ED, but I watched a close friend come very very close to starving to death from anorexia)
[url=" https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/science-ticker/gut-bacteria-protein-linked-anorexia-and-bulimiahttp://"]Article Here![/url]
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Interesting. I wonder what the results would be if you tested the gut bacteria of people with ED and compared it to the bacteria of those who don't have an ED. Of course, that would be correlational, and not causal. Interesting stuff nonetheless, especially because I've learned the most about psychosocial factors influencing ED and not biological ones.0
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Well this is all new research. They have compared it to those without ED, and this is a bacteria they have found that is exclusive to people with eating disorders. It sends a signal to the brain that the stomach is full, so it makes it very difficult for people to eat because they feel or think they are full when they aren't. This, of course, would have varying mental health effects on people.0
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I'm a nurse and when I saw ED the 1st thing I thought was erectile dysfunction? LOL0
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The article you linked doesn't give a lot of info about the study plus it was tested in mice not humans. At least it does link to the actual study but you can only read the abstract.
I wouldn't call it amazing just yet0 -
hahahah That's awesome. What a mix up that would be!0
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while gut bacteria is important for everyone...It definitely does not say it causes--but contributes, and it is only hypothesis. Eating disorders are primarily psychological...and should be treated as such. It is well known that the brain chemistry in those suffering from ED is altered in what is called the "reward" center of the brain.
But with that said, the food that normal folks eat these days is greatly lacking in pre- and probiotics. More good gut bacteria is good for everyone!0 -
We've always believed them to be psychological - what this study is saying is that, that may not be the case. Of course this is preliminary studies, but they have shown in mice and are ready to move to human trials, that this particular gut bacteria (which not everyone has), can be treated with antibiotics and the eating disorder is treated.0
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SpockAdventures wrote: »Well this is all new research. They have compared it to those without ED, and this is a bacteria they have found that is exclusive to people with eating disorders. It sends a signal to the brain that the stomach is full, so it makes it very difficult for people to eat because they feel or think they are full when they aren't. This, of course, would have varying mental health effects on people.
Are you talking about the study you presented? That study was done with mice, not people. That's why I brought up doing something comparable (yet ethical) with people.
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Yes, that is what I said to another commenter - all scientific research is done on mice or pigs or chimps before they can start testing the theory on humans. They are moving on to human trials, next, it's just that the research is very promising. I never said that this was absolutely true, just that there is the possibility that there could be a primary physiological reason for most ED and the mental health issues and changes in brain chemistry could potentially be side effects of having a stomach that essentially wants to starve itself. It would just be a HUGE step in fighting eating disorders.0
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I believe eating disorders begin with mental health, skewed perceptions and unrealistic goals. THEN perhaps the gut begins to show signs of the disorder. I think this could help, but not a cure in of its self.
Thats like saying there is a cure for addiction without any psychological help, but just some meds.0 -
No no, it's saying that the mental health stuff could be the result of your body starving itself. Of course mental health plays a part - but how amazing would it be if you could take huge strides in reintroducing food to someone if you can eliminate a physiological component??
I guess I just find this incredibly hopeful and wonderful. The implications on being able to treat the desire not to have food, so the mental health side can be focused and treated more directly without having to be mixed in with trying to reteach someone's stomach to want food again. Maybe it's just me, but like I said, I think it's incredibly fascinating and exciting!0 -
First of all, I thought erectile dysfunction too at first. LOL
This is my theory on this based on the limited info that I have read here. I think that eating disorders are mostly psychological. What I think is that this bacteria in the stomach might be what gives someone with the psychology the "willpower" to do it. I know a girl who has the most messed-up views on body image and food that I have ever seen, and it constantly amazes me that she doesn't have an eating disorder. I know that is bad to say, but it really does. I always say if she had the willpower to do it, she would have starved herself years ago. But maybe it's not willpower; maybe it's a bacteria that makes you feel full. OR maybe the bacteria is caused as a byproduct of starving yourself for so long.
It's all interesting to think about, and it is exciting that scientists are trying to figure what's behind eating disorders. However, I am sitting here with an Overeaters Anonymous meditation book on my desk, knowing full well that if you have the addiction/compulsion genes and something clicks in your brain, you're probably headed to a life of disordered eating.0 -
OH I agree wholeheartedly - I definitely KNOW that there are mental health implications, whether they are the result of a body that is starving itself or is something that one is more susceptible to and is fueled by an, essentially, bacterial infection. Those things can be addressed so much more efficiently if you don't also have to relearn how to enjoy food, or be accepting of. You can focus on the body image issues, the anxiety, the depression, anger, etc. that accompanies eating disorders directly.0
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SpockAdventures wrote: »No no, it's saying that the mental health stuff could be the result of your body starving itself. Of course mental health plays a part - but how amazing would it be if you could take huge strides in reintroducing food to someone if you can eliminate a physiological component??
I guess I just find this incredibly hopeful and wonderful. The implications on being able to treat the desire not to have food, so the mental health side can be focused and treated more directly without having to be mixed in with trying to reteach someone's stomach to want food again. Maybe it's just me, but like I said, I think it's incredibly fascinating and exciting!
Many people with eating disorders feel hungry; it's the intense fear of getting fat that prevents them from eating. People with bulimia can eat quite a bit; it's factors like shame, guilt, anxiety of weight gain, and disgust that often lead to purges. (I'm generalizing, for sure, there are of course other unique to the individual reasons for psychological distress leading to physical symptoms.)
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I never said you don't feel hungry - the gut bacteria just can make your brain find food unappealing which can turn you off of food.
I speak to this not just having a friend that nearly died of anorexia, but my husband has a very very similar illness that causes similar symptoms in which he knows he should be hungry, and sometimes he actually feels he is. But as soon as he sees or smells food, the fuller his stomach begins to feel, so eating a meal feels to him, like he's trying to have a full meal on top of an already full stomach. The food triggers the bacteria to send signals to the brain saying he is full, so the longer he is around food or smells it, the fuller he feels and the less appealing the food is. He has studied this extensively because, you know, he doesn't want to starve to death, and because of a very high IQ and mental health issues he lives with, he has to have a very clear idea of how to maintain his health.
So, while they are not exactly the same, what my husband lives with is very similar to the effects of this new bacteria they found.0 -
SpockAdventures wrote: »I never said you don't feel hungry - the gut bacteria just can make your brain find food unappealing which can turn you off of food.
I speak to this not just having a friend that nearly died of anorexia, but my husband has a very very similar illness that causes similar symptoms in which he knows he should be hungry, and sometimes he actually feels he is. But as soon as he sees or smells food, the fuller his stomach begins to feel, so eating a meal feels to him, like he's trying to have a full meal on top of an already full stomach. The food triggers the bacteria to send signals to the brain saying he is full, so the longer he is around food or smells it, the fuller he feels and the less appealing the food is. He has studied this extensively because, you know, he doesn't want to starve to death, and because of a very high IQ and mental health issues he lives with, he has to have a very clear idea of how to maintain his health.
So, while they are not exactly the same, what my husband lives with is very similar to the effects of this new bacteria they found.
I would argue that this condition is it's own separate condition. You could call it an eating disorder, sure, but the "traditional" eating disorders are very unlikely to be caused by what you describe. Many people with eating disorders are often somewhat obsessed with food and many have safe foods. I can get that "I know I should be hungry but I feel nauseated by the idea of food" sensation from time to time, but that is entirely different from a distorted view of self and a delusional fear of getting fat. (Success with anti-psychotics has been demonstrated for some, not all, people with the traditional eating disorders.)
Your husband would possibly benefit quite a bit from this antibiotic, and that is exciting for him. What you describe still doesn't meet criteria for anorexia nervosa or bulimia.
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I know they aren't the same, I said they are very similiar. The bacteria of each condition are cousins of one another. I will say again, I know that there are heavy psychological issues with eating disorders, but scientists who know a lot more than I do because I'm not a scientist, say that they may have found a very real physiological component to eating disorders. I don't mean to come across as condescending - understand it's a little frustrating for everyone to tell me I'm wrong about there being a physical reason for something, when I'm not the one making the argument. I'm sharing the findings of scientific studies, which whether you choose to believe them or not, are scientific facts that they are discovering and are admittedly not proven on humans yet.0
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SpockAdventures wrote: »I know they aren't the same, I said they are very similiar. The bacteria of each condition are cousins of one another. I will say again, I know that there are heavy psychological issues with eating disorders, but scientists who know a lot more than I do because I'm not a scientist, say that they may have found a very real physiological component to eating disorders. I don't mean to come across as condescending - understand it's a little frustrating for everyone to tell me I'm wrong about there being a physical reason for something, when I'm not the one making the argument. I'm sharing the findings of scientific studies, which whether you choose to believe them or not, are scientific facts that they are discovering and are admittedly not proven on humans yet.
I understand why you are frustrated, but when you post a topic about extremely complex conditions and state that they could be as simple as a need for antibiotics, you're going to get criticism of that argument. These particular scientists having an idea do not outweigh the years of research already done.
My first question is, if eating disorders are primarily physiological, from gut bacteria, how do people recover with therapy? My second question is, how do they know this gut bacteria is the cause and not caused by the eating disorder? I could not read the article, maybe this is addressed.
Anorexia nervosa has the highest fatality rate of any mental illness. It's exciting to think that an antibiotic could be the cure of all of this, but there is a lot of reason to be suspicious and challenge those findings.
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About me believing the scientific facts: you haven't really established the importance of these facts yet. This comes back to the causation versus correlation argument. It's easy for me to believe that people with ED have different gut bacteria than those who do not. That's an unsurprising outcome in people who have disordered feeding habits.0
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I can understand where you are coming from as well. I think it's that while I am a skeptical person generally, when there are breakthroughs in science like this that could have amazing future implications, I tend to see it in a very exciting hopeful light and leave the skepticism to the scientists that now have to work to prove that this could make HUGE differences in the lives of so many.
And as far as getting better with therapy - I do think that there are probably plenty of cases of eating disorders that aren't affected by a gut bacteria, definitely. We could just be looking at a study in which we find even a portion of those diagnosed could be essentially cured with little to no therapy if their mental health issues don't run too deep.
I should also clarify that I do understand mental health issues - I am bipolar and have terrible generalized anxiety disorder, so much so that I am on disability for these things, so I don't take mental health lightly. If there were a study that showed something similar for either of my conditions, I'd be equally as excited and hopeful - my "religion" is science. I don't believe in god, I trust and believe in scientists, so that could very well be the difference in the weight I place on studies like this over others, as well.
And I know that the topic and ideas behind the study are controversial and that there will be some skepticism. I would prefer to just direct the conversation to question the study and not me, who is just sharing said study.
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I can't access the study, so the only thing I have to comment on is what you posted. I would like to be as excited about findings like this, but I've heard of tons of scientific studies that fizzle out and go nowhere. It's the nature of science, it's not a flaw, it is how advancements are made. But that's why I reserve my excitement for more promising, studied information.
It would be awesome if some people can be helped by this information, though they wouldn't have the mental illness of an eating disorder. They'd be suffering from actual anorexia, a lack of hunger, not the MI anorexia nervosa. When I don't want to eat because I have nausea, it's physiological, not a mental illness. Unfortunately, mice infected with a gut bacteria and then don't want to eat have very little to say about their mental health. If you don't feel good in your tummy, it's pretty normal to not want to eat.
I've really said all that I have to say, so I will leave your thread in peace. Your religion, science, needs both skeptics and open-mindedness. I'm glad you are an optimistic person and find hope from this.
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Maitria Here's a couple of other links to articles about the study... they explain it much better than I.
sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141007103308.htmhttp://
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2783866/Could-eating-disorders-one-day-treated-antibiotics-Scientists-bacteria-gut-affect-appetite.html
http://www.neomatica.com/2014/10/08/molecular-origins-eating-disorders-found-gut-microbe/
And I thank you for your input, its' good to have people looking at issues from every side possible! We wouldn't be able to have science without differing perspectives!0 -
This is really kind of fascinating. Although to be honest, I do not understand why so many would say ED is solely psychological.
All we can say is that 'up to our current level of knowledge,' ED is psychological. And psychology is a soft science and it is FULL of completely incorrect information that changes when a few decades down the line, new information is introduced, or in some cases, old prejudices are eliminated. We may find out that many things we thought were ED's were actually something physical. We may find out that there are psychologically caused ED's and physiologically caused ED's. We may find out that all ED's have something physical involved.
All this study is showing is that there may be more involved to eating disorders than we're aware of. That it may NOT all be psychological. With so many of our young women bombarded with messages that affect their body images, who knows, perhaps a physical issue could be what tip some over into an ED while others can withstand the urge. Our minds are part of our bodies, not separate, and our minds are far more susceptible to the body's influence than probably a lot of us would like to believe.
There was no claim by the OP that ED WAS all caused by bacteria, only that there's evidence to explore regarding this that could have some amazing implications. It's an 'something to think about' sharing, at least that's how it struck me.
Yeah, it might never come to fruition, but it's just as valid to be excited about the implications as it is to be skeptical about them.0 -
Having recovered from anorexia and bulimia, I can say with confidence that eating disorders - traditional eating disorders - are 100% psychological disorders. They are control disorders that emerge for certain people when life gets hard to handle. People who are subject to the disorder fight it their whole lives. Even now, 15+ years later, when I am going through something particularly unnerving, there's a temptation to regain control through eating habits.
Now, that said, I am sure that an eating disorder could cause gut problems that help the disease continue on. Over time, you just aren't hungry anymore. And, the effect of starvation on the brain can cause additional disorders (body dismorphia is big).
But, as much as it would be nice for ED to be cured with antibiotics, I just can't buy into it.0 -
while gut bacteria is important for everyone...It definitely does not say it causes--but contributes, and it is only hypothesis. Eating disorders are primarily psychological...and should be treated as such. It is well known that the brain chemistry in those suffering from ED is altered in what is called the "reward" center of the brain.
But with that said, the food that normal folks eat these days is greatly lacking in pre- and probiotics. More good gut bacteria is good for everyone!
this. seriously.
I see nothing amazing about this- any body who struggles with extreme food hang ups- binging or any sort of extreme restriction it has everything to do with what's up in side the mind. And nothing else.0 -
Having recovered from anorexia and bulimia, I can say with confidence that eating disorders - traditional eating disorders - are 100% psychological disorders. They are control disorders that emerge for certain people when life gets hard to handle. People who are subject to the disorder fight it their whole lives. Even now, 15+ years later, when I am going through something particularly unnerving, there's a temptation to regain control through eating habits.
Now, that said, I am sure that an eating disorder could cause gut problems that help the disease continue on. Over time, you just aren't hungry anymore. And, the effect of starvation on the brain can cause additional disorders (body dismorphia is big).
But, as much as it would be nice for ED to be cured with antibiotics, I just can't buy into it.
With you on this. Dealt with it and have my Bachelor's in Psychology. They are usually anxiety based disorders and controlling food intake is a means to control something in life. It may be true that these bacteria are formed as a result of disordered eating, but I do not for a second believe that eating disorders are "caused" by bacteria in the gut.0 -
Sorry ED are control issue related. Bacteria may end up in the stomach because of lack of certain nutrients but that is not the cause. Each person has their own fear foods some will binge Most are controlling the hunger very few have no hunger. I am also one who has been down this path started from a medical issue but still a control issue. I have been stable and at a great weight for a few years. Antibiotics isn't the answer0
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this is actually really important. i'm just amazed that they're doing research into them, to be honest!
I hope they can find a cure. 0 -
This is really kind of fascinating. Although to be honest, I do not understand why so many would say ED is solely psychological.
All we can say is that 'up to our current level of knowledge,' ED is psychological. And psychology is a soft science and it is FULL of completely incorrect information that changes when a few decades down the line, new information is introduced, or in some cases, old prejudices are eliminated. We may find out that many things we thought were ED's were actually something physical. We may find out that there are psychologically caused ED's and physiologically caused ED's. We may find out that all ED's have something physical involved.
All this study is showing is that there may be more involved to eating disorders than we're aware of. That it may NOT all be psychological. With so many of our young women bombarded with messages that affect their body images, who knows, perhaps a physical issue could be what tip some over into an ED while others can withstand the urge. Our minds are part of our bodies, not separate, and our minds are far more susceptible to the body's influence than probably a lot of us would like to believe.
There was no claim by the OP that ED WAS all caused by bacteria, only that there's evidence to explore regarding this that could have some amazing implications. It's an 'something to think about' sharing, at least that's how it struck me.
Yeah, it might never come to fruition, but it's just as valid to be excited about the implications as it is to be skeptical about them.
Thanks! I'm glad you understand, it really is just something to think about, and besides, no one ever said we know everything about everything! Of course we recognize the psychological...but science is making leaps and bounds every day, that we really need to acknowledge!0 -
tartansheep wrote: »this is actually really important. i'm just amazed that they're doing research into them, to be honest! I hope they can find a cure.
Thanks for understanding the importance! There's nothing wrong with us saying that we've been wrong just because we didn't know something, if that's even the case!0
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