Serious Questions About the Effects of a VLCD
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Please read through this experiment, especially the results. Please note 'starvation' for these men was 1560 calories per day. Also there were only 36 participants and it does not look like they were overweight to begin with, so this is not a perfect analogy to your situation, however it does shed some light on what restricting calories does to the human body.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
I thought I remembered reading elsewhere that when they tried to return to normal eating most of these men had to eat a tremendous amount of calories for their bodies to recover. This article discusses a little of that :
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2014/01/wwii-minnesota-starvation-experiment-recovery-slow/
The best thing you can do for yourself it to set up healthy habits you can live with for the rest of your life. So what if it takes you 5 years to get at your goal weight. You need to be thinking about your health and well-being for the next few decades, not the next few months. Please seek out a health care professional who specializes in eating disorder recovery.0 -
__drmerc__ wrote: »You can survive on a 0 calorie diet for a extended period of time assuming you have enough fat. Most people here are just echoing what they read on MFP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/pdf/postmedj00315-0056.pdf
OH I have enough fat. Nooooooooo shortage there.0 -
Please read through this experiment, especially the results. Please note 'starvation' for these men was 1560 calories per day. Also there were only 36 participants and it does not look like they were overweight to begin with, so this is not a perfect analogy to your situation, however it does shed some light on what restricting calories does to the human body.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
I thought I remembered reading elsewhere that when they tried to return to normal eating most of these men had to eat a tremendous amount of calories for their bodies to recover. This article discusses a little of that :
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2014/01/wwii-minnesota-starvation-experiment-recovery-slow/
The best thing you can do for yourself it to set up healthy habits you can live with for the rest of your life. So what if it takes you 5 years to get at your goal weight. You need to be thinking about your health and well-being for the next few decades, not the next few months. Please seek out a health care professional who specializes in eating disorder recovery.
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"The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week."
That's because it's what you should be doing to lose weight.
I lost 35 pounds in about 6 weeks due to an intestinal bacterial infection and it took me over a year to get over that kind of weight loss and all the ramifications. Please re-evaluate what you are doing and follow the advice you received from professionals.
I know. I've tried. I just get so discouraged so quickly when the initial weight loss is slow.
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The doctor has told you that a VLCD is dangerous based on your history. They've also told you that surgery is dangerous based on your history. Restrictive EDs can and do cause death. Why do you want to do things that the doctors are telling you are dangerous? Do you not care that you're putting yourself at risk?brianpperkins wrote: »The only time and way to ever go on a VLCD is under the direct supervision and direction of a doctor. Quit trying to figure out how to bypass that requirement.
Bypass it? I've asked my doctor who referred me to the weight specialists at the hospital I go to who looked at my history and said "Uh, No. We fear it would activate restriction."
I asked for the weight loss surgery. "Uh, no. We would never perform that surgery on you with your history." I am pretty sure NOT bypassing it and having all these people previously involved in my weight loss efforts is what semi-screwed me now.
So, I have asked multiple doctors and nutritionists and therapists for the help I think I need but haven't gotten anywhere other than told to do. The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week.
Seriously, is losing more than two pounds a week so important to you that you'd rather hurt yourself?
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Thanks for the details. So if the gallbladder has nothing to do, that's when it forms gallstones?
Gallstones are associated with low fat eating, where the demind for bile is low. Cholesterol is secreted regardless and accumulates in the gall bladder, becomes oversaturated and forms stones.
Eating fat means it is drained regularly, the cholesterol doesn't accumulate, and the saturation doesn't occur.
http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/gallstones.htm#d
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I thought we weren't allowed to encourage vlcd on here?
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I understand that it's frustrating for it to take so long when you have so much to lose. Maybe looking at it differently will help. Instead of telling yourself you have the whole amount to lose, break it up into smaller goals of say 10 pounds each. Celebrate each and every 10 pounds, they will add up.
Remind yourself no matter what, a year from now is a year from now. You will either be steady on your weight loss journey, or in another binge cycle because you didn't do it properly. 2 pounds a week is 100 pounds in a year. 1 year from today, you could be 100 pounds lighter, or you could be in the hospital, or worse.
Furthermore, I would scour these threads for people who have successfully lost and maintained triple digit weight loss, and/or have dealt with EDs in a healthy way. Send them a friend request. Ask them to help motivate you. Learn from their experience and wisdom.
Have patience with yourself. And forgive yourself when you mess up. You are worth it.0 -
This is just a suggestion, and I do mean this and my prior response as good and healthy food for thought, but one thing that I think helps me is to not allow myself an "out" due to a failure of me to achieve some goal.
So, for example, I went in with a mindset that if I failed to lose XX pounds in the first two months I would still be OK and still continue at whatever rate I could do reliably. Eventually I would weigh less, and would keep on weighing less as long as I allowed myself to continue, and not stop because I felt I had a setback or failed to reach what might have been an unrealistic goal.
Victories do make me feel good, but the bigger victory is to keep going at the long term goal, using a long term methodology, something I will keep doing AFTER I have lost all the weight. I consider all this "losing weight" as simply "practice" to living as a thinner, healthier me later on.
May not work for all, but if it helps in any way, there it is.0 -
__drmerc__ wrote: »You can survive on a 0 calorie diet for a extended period of time assuming you have enough fat. Most people here are just echoing what they read on MFP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/pdf/postmedj00315-0056.pdf
Hmmmm, their conclusion in part.
"Conclusions
Short-term fasts, although demonstrating to the obese patient his ability to lose weight,
have a poor long-term outlook with respect to subsequent weight gain (MacCuish et al.,
1968). We have found, like Munro and colleagues (1970), that prolonged super-vised
therapeutic starvation of the obese patient can be a safe therapy, which is also effective
if the ideal weight is reached. There is, however, likely to be occasionally a risk in some
individuals, attributable to failures in different aspects of the adaptative response to
fasting. Until the characteristics of these variations in response are identified, and shown
to be capable of detection in their prodromal stages, ex-tended starvation therapy
must be used cautiously."
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brianpperkins wrote: »The only time and way to ever go on a VLCD is under the direct supervision and direction of a doctor. Quit trying to figure out how to bypass that requirement.
Bypass it? I've asked my doctor who referred me to the weight specialists at the hospital I go to who looked at my history and said "Uh, No. We fear it would activate restriction."
I asked for the weight loss surgery. "Uh, no. We would never perform that surgery on you with your history." I am pretty sure NOT bypassing it and having all these people previously involved in my weight loss efforts is what semi-screwed me now.
So, I have asked multiple doctors and nutritionists and therapists for the help I think I need but haven't gotten anywhere other than told to do. The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week.
So you get told not to do it by medical professionals, then come here seeking VLCD info? You're not looking for sound advice... you're looking for confirmation of your desires without regard to how unhealthy your admitted behaviors are. Quite honestly it seems that you are ignoring medical advice and imploring people here to violate the rules of MFP and advocate a VLCD which your history, as told to you by doctors, is contraindicated.
With that, I will not even wish you luck in your current endeavors as they are against this site's rules and against the medical advice you've received.0 -
"The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week."
That's because it's what you should be doing to lose weight.
I lost 35 pounds in about 6 weeks due to an intestinal bacterial infection and it took me over a year to get over that kind of weight loss and all the ramifications. Please re-evaluate what you are doing and follow the advice you received from professionals.
I know. I've tried. I just get so discouraged so quickly when the initial weight loss is slow.
As someone who also has a substantial amount of weight to lose, it's really easy getting sucked into the vortex of "this isn't enough." Because the inevitable cycle is extreme calorie restriction, binge, repeat. It doesn't end, and you end up losing the same amount of weight over and over again.
So beyond physical health, mentally this will screw you up. I would see a therapist and work through those issues. What I've learned (finally) is that this goes beyond just losing weight. If you're not in the right mindset, you're bound to stay in that cycle indefinitely.0 -
I'm just going to go with one study as there are many things that a low calorie diet can damage in your body. One of the biggest problems with going with an extremely low calorie diet and then rapidly increasing calories (if you ever decide to start eating again) is heart problems. Sudden cardiac arrest is associated with low calorie diets like this. This study
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/230S.full.pdf
gives most of the reasons in complicated doctor talk but I'll simplify it for you. When you go on a really low calorie diet, even supplementing with vitamins, you are most likely deficient in many electrolytes such as potassium and magnesium. Both of these are essential in making sure your body operates normally. It's also very easy to be deficient in copper, which has been associated with causing sudden cardiac arrest. Also, when you are obese, you heart has to beat harder and the walls get thicker. When you decrease calories, one of the places your body pulls muscle from is the sides of your heart which can also cause heart problems. In addition, (AND most importantly!) eating a lot of calories causes an increase in your sympathetic nervous system which is the system that produces the "fight or flight response" that causes your heart to be faster when you are scared or nervous. When you rapidly decrease calories you stop stimulating this system as much. When you go back to eating a lot of calories (such as a binge) you stimulate this system again and this causes the heart to attempt to beat more quickly and can cause arrhythmias (irregular beats) that can kill you. Eating at a sensible deficit doesn't cause this system to swing up and down so much and prevents the sudden increase in stimulation that can cause a heart attack.
There are many many issues with very low calorie diets. A heart attack is just ONE issue. I urge you to get professional help and work on the psychological reasons you are wanting to do this diet. You need to focus on your body and your mind. Think of it this way- you have spent however many years hurting your body by eating too many calories. Why would you want to turn around and hurt it by eating too few?
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brianpperkins wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The only time and way to ever go on a VLCD is under the direct supervision and direction of a doctor. Quit trying to figure out how to bypass that requirement.
Bypass it? I've asked my doctor who referred me to the weight specialists at the hospital I go to who looked at my history and said "Uh, No. We fear it would activate restriction."
I asked for the weight loss surgery. "Uh, no. We would never perform that surgery on you with your history." I am pretty sure NOT bypassing it and having all these people previously involved in my weight loss efforts is what semi-screwed me now.
So, I have asked multiple doctors and nutritionists and therapists for the help I think I need but haven't gotten anywhere other than told to do. The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week.
So you get told not to do it by medical professionals, then come here seeking VLCD info? You're not looking for sound advice... you're looking for confirmation of your desires without regard to how unhealthy your admitted behaviors are. Quite honestly it seems that you are ignoring medical advice and imploring people here to violate the rules of MFP and advocate a VLCD which your history, as told to you by doctors, is contraindicated.
With that, I will not even wish you luck in your current endeavors as they are against this site's rules and against the medical advice you've received.
You really do seem to be unnecessarily presumptuous and somewhat rude from what I can tell by your responses. You are going to tell me why I posted and what I'm looking for? I'm "imploring people to violate the rules?" This was my FIRST post. I don't even know what the real rules are but thank you and whomever else apparently clicked something that now gave my profile 2 "Abuses." WTH is THAT? I've been in forums before and met people like you who think they are king of the castle and are constantly on the lookout for any new person who might violate any little thing when really, contrary to what you perceive as some plan on my part to make people do things, I was nervous as hell to post this and responses like yours are why. Examine why you're so hostile on an internet forum towards someone asking for help who you don't even know.
To EVERYONE ELSE, I sincerely appreciate your input and the time you took to chat with a new member. I'll take the advice you've given to heart and check out any links you provided. Thanks for being understanding and helping me through a moment. I'm just going to go back to using the diary and hiding around here. But best wishes on your weight loss journeys.
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"I've asked my doctor who referred me to the weight specialists at the hospital I go to who looked at my history and said "Uh, No. We fear it would activate restriction."brianpperkins wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The only time and way to ever go on a VLCD is under the direct supervision and direction of a doctor. Quit trying to figure out how to bypass that requirement.
Bypass it? I've asked my doctor who referred me to the weight specialists at the hospital I go to who looked at my history and said "Uh, No. We fear it would activate restriction."
I asked for the weight loss surgery. "Uh, no. We would never perform that surgery on you with your history." I am pretty sure NOT bypassing it and having all these people previously involved in my weight loss efforts is what semi-screwed me now.
c to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week.
So you get told not to do it by medical professionals, then come here seeking VLCD info? You're not looking for sound advice... you're looking for confirmation of your desires without regard to how unhealthy your admitted behaviors are. Quite honestly it seems that you are ignoring medical advice and imploring people here to violate the rules of MFP and advocate a VLCD which your history, as told to you by doctors, is contraindicated.
With that, I will not even wish you luck in your current endeavors as they are against this site's rules and against the medical advice you've received.
You really do seem to be unnecessarily presumptuous and somewhat rude from what I can tell by your responses. You are going to tell me why I posted and what I'm looking for? I'm "imploring people to violate the rules?" This was my FIRST post. I don't even know what the real rules are but thank you and whomever else apparently clicked something that now gave my profile 2 "Abuses." WTH is THAT? I've been in forums before and met people like you who think they are king of the castle and are constantly on the lookout for any new person who might violate any little thing when really, contrary to what you perceive as some plan on my part to make people do things, I was nervous as hell to post this and responses like yours are why. Examine why you're so hostile on an internet forum towards someone asking for help who you don't even know.
To EVERYONE ELSE, I sincerely appreciate your input and the time you took to chat with a new member. I'll take the advice you've given to heart and check out any links you provided. Thanks for being understanding and helping me through a moment. I'm just going to go back to using the diary and hiding around here. But best wishes on your weight loss journeys.
I asked for the weight loss surgery. "Uh, no. We would never perform that surgery on you with your history."
"So, I have asked multiple doctors and nutritionists and therapists for the help I think I need but haven't gotten anywhere other than told to do. The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day" ... Your own posts tell of multiple medical professionals recommending against a VCLD. Your own posts illustrate a history of disordered eating. How am I presumptuous based on your own posts? Everything I said to you was based on your own admitted past ... not a belief that I am king of the castle or a hunt for rules violations.
Here's something you really should read and learn ...
http://myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines0 -
As surprising as it sounds, I'm not hungry at all and of course, the scale is dropping. The only thing I am noticing the past couple of days is mild muscle fatigue and occasional dizziness when I'm in bed. (This is a good example of what I'm looking to find out. WHAT causes the muscle fatigue? WHAT causes the dizziness?)
If I'm doing real physical damage, I will stop.
Not surprising at all that you are not hungry. Your body is adapting to the lower energy intake... you body is going into a survival mode so to speak. Sure the scale is dropping... you body is catabolizing muscle for energy.
IMO, a constant state of severe negative energy balance is at the root of your muscle fatigue and dizziness.
This is a bad idea all around...
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__drmerc__ wrote: »You can survive on a 0 calorie diet for a extended period of time assuming you have enough fat. Most people here are just echoing what they read on MFP.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/pdf/postmedj00315-0056.pdf
I read the article, it specifically states that the patient was continuously monitored during his fast by medical professionals and required potassium and sodium supplementation at different times. Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it should be done. And certainly not without adequate supervision. Electrolyte imbalances can be deadly. For example, low potassium levels can cause a fatal heart arrhythmia.
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I have to admit that I started thinking "troll", too. You don't sound like a person with an ED.brianpperkins wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The only time and way to ever go on a VLCD is under the direct supervision and direction of a doctor. Quit trying to figure out how to bypass that requirement.
Bypass it? I've asked my doctor who referred me to the weight specialists at the hospital I go to who looked at my history and said "Uh, No. We fear it would activate restriction."
I asked for the weight loss surgery. "Uh, no. We would never perform that surgery on you with your history." I am pretty sure NOT bypassing it and having all these people previously involved in my weight loss efforts is what semi-screwed me now.
So, I have asked multiple doctors and nutritionists and therapists for the help I think I need but haven't gotten anywhere other than told to do. The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week.
So you get told not to do it by medical professionals, then come here seeking VLCD info? You're not looking for sound advice... you're looking for confirmation of your desires without regard to how unhealthy your admitted behaviors are. Quite honestly it seems that you are ignoring medical advice and imploring people here to violate the rules of MFP and advocate a VLCD which your history, as told to you by doctors, is contraindicated.
With that, I will not even wish you luck in your current endeavors as they are against this site's rules and against the medical advice you've received.
You really do seem to be unnecessarily presumptuous and somewhat rude from what I can tell by your responses. You are going to tell me why I posted and what I'm looking for? I'm "imploring people to violate the rules?" This was my FIRST post. I don't even know what the real rules are but thank you and whomever else apparently clicked something that now gave my profile 2 "Abuses." WTH is THAT? I've been in forums before and met people like you who think they are king of the castle and are constantly on the lookout for any new person who might violate any little thing when really, contrary to what you perceive as some plan on my part to make people do things, I was nervous as hell to post this and responses like yours are why. Examine why you're so hostile on an internet forum towards someone asking for help who you don't even know.
To EVERYONE ELSE, I sincerely appreciate your input and the time you took to chat with a new member. I'll take the advice you've given to heart and check out any links you provided. Thanks for being understanding and helping me through a moment. I'm just going to go back to using the diary and hiding around here. But best wishes on your weight loss journeys.
By the time they're diagnosed and in so far over their heads, they want a way out. They cannot find a way out, but they want one. They don't start threads like this one. They couldn't bear the abuse and don't want to advertise their problems. There are other things that set off bells, too, but I don't want to give a primer on How To Successfully Troll By Pretending To Have An ED, lol.
If you really have a problem and want help, get some. If you don't want help, then don't.
If you are faking this as some kind of sick way to make fun of or shame people with EDs, shame on you.
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I have to admit that I started thinking "troll", too. You don't sound like a person with an ED.brianpperkins wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The only time and way to ever go on a VLCD is under the direct supervision and direction of a doctor. Quit trying to figure out how to bypass that requirement.
Bypass it? I've asked my doctor who referred me to the weight specialists at the hospital I go to who looked at my history and said "Uh, No. We fear it would activate restriction."
I asked for the weight loss surgery. "Uh, no. We would never perform that surgery on you with your history." I am pretty sure NOT bypassing it and having all these people previously involved in my weight loss efforts is what semi-screwed me now.
So, I have asked multiple doctors and nutritionists and therapists for the help I think I need but haven't gotten anywhere other than told to do. The only thing any of them are willing to do is monitor a program that starts at 1800 a day to produce a loss of .5-2lbs a week.
So you get told not to do it by medical professionals, then come here seeking VLCD info? You're not looking for sound advice... you're looking for confirmation of your desires without regard to how unhealthy your admitted behaviors are. Quite honestly it seems that you are ignoring medical advice and imploring people here to violate the rules of MFP and advocate a VLCD which your history, as told to you by doctors, is contraindicated.
With that, I will not even wish you luck in your current endeavors as they are against this site's rules and against the medical advice you've received.
You really do seem to be unnecessarily presumptuous and somewhat rude from what I can tell by your responses. You are going to tell me why I posted and what I'm looking for? I'm "imploring people to violate the rules?" This was my FIRST post. I don't even know what the real rules are but thank you and whomever else apparently clicked something that now gave my profile 2 "Abuses." WTH is THAT? I've been in forums before and met people like you who think they are king of the castle and are constantly on the lookout for any new person who might violate any little thing when really, contrary to what you perceive as some plan on my part to make people do things, I was nervous as hell to post this and responses like yours are why. Examine why you're so hostile on an internet forum towards someone asking for help who you don't even know.
To EVERYONE ELSE, I sincerely appreciate your input and the time you took to chat with a new member. I'll take the advice you've given to heart and check out any links you provided. Thanks for being understanding and helping me through a moment. I'm just going to go back to using the diary and hiding around here. But best wishes on your weight loss journeys.
By the time they're diagnosed and in so far over their heads, they want a way out. They cannot find a way out, but they want one. They don't start threads like this one. They couldn't bear the abuse and don't want to advertise their problems. There are other things that set off bells, too, but I don't want to give a primer on How To Successfully Troll By Pretending To Have An ED, lol.
If you really have a problem and want help, get some. If you don't want help, then don't.
If you are faking this as some kind of sick way to make fun of or shame people with EDs, shame on you.
Amen...
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In for flippingoutfrogs!0
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Just got back from a walk and while I was waiting for the dog to do her business I wondered about this thread.
I don't think the OP is trying to pull off some scam. Anything is possible, but I just don't get that vibe at all.
Actually, overall I thought that there were some really good responses on here.
Coincidentally, I did participate in a medically supervised 0 calorie starvation diet more than once when I was in college. It wasn't for the purposes of weight loss. It was to make money as a volunteer human lab rat. It was for some basic science research about the effects of starvation on several endocrine systems simply to understand them better. I was a pretty average weight at the time. Not skinny, not overweight.
Anyway, let me change the subject...
The answer isn't in the questions being asked and the responses being provided (in my humble opinion). I really don't believe that the source of your weight gain and the solution to your weight loss are physiologic. I think you have hinted that it is psychological not physiological and I guess that is what it seems to me as well.
I liked Kalikel's first response best where they alluded to the fact that you can't summarize a decade of medical training into a concise response on an internet forum board for a layperson. Think of how absurd it would be if you could.
Anyway, I suspect that what your doctor is telling you is that starvation is dangerous for you because of the psychological effects, not the physical ones. I also kinda suspect you know that. Then again, if that is all true, then the attempt to ask a question that can't be properly answered satisfactorily, as a method of assuaging your anxiety over giving into your illness, is just another symptom of the illness itself. So the answer to the question really doesn't matter because it is just an exercise in distraction.
... or maybe I'm wrong. Who knows?
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a VLCD is probably only relatively safe when you face imminent death if you don't lose a significant amount of weight in a short amount of time such that your doctor believes the permanent side effects are outweighed by the risk of death or permanent disability. If that is the case, you would probably need to live in some kind of residential clinic with around the clock care. Otherwise, the prospect of quick, cheap weight loss is not worth it.0
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Read what you wrote, especially the bit that I've bolded.
Even if there were nothing physiologically dangerous about a 350 cal diet (and there is, even in those who are obese), your eating issues and a VLCD do NOT mix.
[/quote]
Fair enough. But it does leave me in a tough position. [/quote]
Agreed.
Anyone here who has had an unhealthy relationship with food/diets will tell you that the tough part isn't restricting what you eat and losing the weight, it's addressing whatever issues you have and getting them straightened out.
Until you at least start dealing with that, you may lose some weight, but it won't be a long term solution. Not even if the docs were willing to move forward with weight loss surgery.0 -
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