Tough Love?
Replies
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ljones27uk wrote: »lol - i often see people being unnecessarily harsh on mfp, usually where people aren't educated and are trying to understand something that to the more experienced MFPer is very basic. (im pretty new here myself so am still learning all the time)
That said, at the start of my weight loss journey, it was my boss that gave me a bit of tough love... he said my weight was down to me, and my lack of progress in getting it down was all because of the excuses i was making... Excuses! I thought (and fumed) about it for awhile, and eventually realised that he was dead right.. I was making excuses and was my fault!
Ive now lost 17% body weight and fully believe I needed the tough love to get me fired into action in the first place.
This ^^^^^^0 -
I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
Thanks for your comments. That said, the second approach ("no excuses") would work better for me. As you say, everyone is different.0 -
ljones27uk wrote: »lol - i often see people being unnecessarily harsh on mfp, usually where people aren't educated and are trying to understand something that to the more experienced MFPer is very basic. (im pretty new here myself so am still learning all the time)
That said, at the start of my weight loss journey, it was my boss that gave me a bit of tough love... he said my weight was down to me, and my lack of progress in getting it down was all because of the excuses i was making... Excuses! I thought (and fumed) about it for awhile, and eventually realised that he was dead right.. I was making excuses and was my fault!
Ive now lost 17% body weight and fully believe I needed the tough love to get me fired into action in the first place.
Congratulations on your weightloss. I find that it's always so much clearer to see the excuses when looking at someone "objectively". So I try my best to look at myself that way, too. I spent the last two years saying I was so bloated because of my GERD... lmbo, that wasn't bloat! It's fat!!!! I wasn't working out. I was eating crap. I didn't figure it out until the scale also showed me Tough Love. And I am so glad I listened. 26lbs down and counting...0 -
I post pity-party posts when I've slipped or gained. I know it's in my control to get on the right path, but sometimes it's helpful when I post and people kick my butt into gear with the truth. Sugarcoating it only makes things worse.
Some of what you said, sounds like you don't agree with people reaching out for support. I think if we could all do this ourselves, we wouldn't need websites like this or 12-step programs, etc. Reaching out, and asking for help shouldn't be put down. But coddling and sugarcoating what they are crying about, doesn't help either.
We are all here for the same reason. Let's just help eachother. If we have to explain the same thing to 40 different people a day, fine. If we don't like it, stay away.0 -
JessaLee0324 wrote: »I post pity-party posts when I've slipped or gained. I know it's in my control to get on the right path, but sometimes it's helpful when I post and people kick my butt into gear with the truth. Sugarcoating it only makes things worse.
Some of what you said, sounds like you don't agree with people reaching out for support. I think if we could all do this ourselves, we wouldn't need websites like this or 12-step programs, etc. Reaching out, and asking for help shouldn't be put down. But coddling and sugarcoating what they are crying about, doesn't help either.
We are all here for the same reason. Let's just help eachother. If we have to explain the same thing to 40 different people a day, fine. If we don't like it, stay away.
I don't think reaching out or asking for help is a bad thing. That's the purpose of this message board, in my opinion. I am surprised by the amount of coddling/enabling. That was the point of my post and I wondered how others felt. Nothing more, nothing less.0 -
I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
I dont think it is a minority at all. It's more of a split down the middle.
Those who prefer tough love are usually not posting as often in this section - as they have figured out what kind of support already works for them and it's needed less often - because it catches their attention so well. Some who don't know what works best yet, are often posting continually because they aren't getting what they need, or they need a mixture of both. People who need the constant forgiveness are often posting all the time, looking for that support that needs to be sustained by others.
So in a way it's even kind of introverted / hybrid / extroverted support.
We can't always tell before conversing with someone if they are looking for forgiveness for their food and workout sins (which doesn't actually solve the problem at hand, only the feelings surrounding it - maybe) or if they are asking for someone to pull the wool away from their eyes and snap them out of denial, ya know?
but i definitely don't think we are a minority, we just dont have to ask as often :flowerforyou:
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I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
I dont think it is a minority at all. It's more of a split down the middle.
Those who prefer tough love are usually not posting as often in this section - as they have figured out what kind of support already works for them and it's needed less often - because it catches their attention so well. Some who don't know what works best yet, are often posting continually because they aren't getting what they need, or they need a mixture of both. People who need the constant forgiveness are often posting all the time, looking for that support that needs to be sustained by others.
So in a way it's even kind of introverted / hybrid / extroverted support.
We can't always tell before conversing with someone if they are looking for forgiveness for their food and workout sins (which doesn't actually solve the problem at hand, only the feelings surrounding it - maybe) or if they are asking for someone to pull the wool away from their eyes and snap them out of denial, ya know?
but i definitely don't think we are a minority, we just dont have to ask as often :flowerforyou:
I totally agree.
And I need buttpats for sure sometimes. I'm very, very hard on myself and sometimes I need a reminder to let stuff go and forgive myself. I realize not everyone is wired the same way though.
I've lost 25% of my body weight in the past 208 days (58 pounds). I've never, ever had a cheat day and I've gone over my calorie goal twice, total. So if I were to post about a bad eating day, it's probably because I need a reminder that I'm doing a damn good job and that one day isn't going to screw up everything. Because I'm an annoying perfectionist.0 -
I, too, am an annoying perfectionist, lol! I won't even allow myself the buttpat. When I think about what I did to my body by gaining all this weight, I can't let up. I've been to three retirement parties and a conference since I started on this journey 8 weeks ago. Haven't eaten a drop of food at any of these events. And it wasn't hard. If I say no and mean no, it can't get into my mouth.
Congrats on the weight loss. I really enjoy reading the success stories on this site.0 -
Coddling and handholding (my own) got me to where I am today - until I finally owned up to my BS, and had people pointing out my lame excuses, I kept doing what I was doing. Now, I'm losing, and eating healthy, and getting fit...basically rocking all my goals. Funny the correlation between the two.... I welcome anyone who wants to make me own up to my news feed where I'm not flagged for picking on anyone
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yoovie, seems like we are on the same page. I have tough skin, no worries. I asked for people's opinion and they gave them. We can agree to disagree. I didn't realize my post was flagged, that's a shame. Because when someone really does attack someone, it won't be taken seriously. That's the "I'm okay, you're okay" world we live in.
Personally, if I screw up, I want to be called on it if I'm acting like a victim. I would never flock to a message board to look for some stranger to tell me that binging or being inconsistent is OK. It's actually not OK. No one would tell someone it's okay to show up for work on an off, to go to the doctor on an off, to parent on and off. Eating well and being active is the key to a healthy lifestyle. If someone has a problem with control when it comes to junk food, like I do, I think the best method is to be strong and refrain. Sure, you can't beat yourself up but you need to be serious and committed. No one can do that for you and no one can erase the 5,000 calories someone just ate.
I have read the posts of successful losers very carefully. The message that rings loud and clear is that there must be consistency. None of them say it's easy. None of them are making excuses.
Yes! I read through the successful posts, too. And the links. There is a certain no nonsense approach although there is also humor.0 -
My thoughts?
1) You probably shouldn't say 'tough love' when there's no love involved
2) Maybe MFP should rename this forum "Shame and Disdain" to be more reflective of your opinion?
I use tough love on my own friends. If i didn't care i wouldn't say anything - so I wouldnt say there was no love.
For me to say every time, eh it's okay, you'll do better next time - that's how you know i don't care.
I am the same way with my friends, tough love, no hand holding, most of the time they appreciate it and others will delete me. Ohh well....
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Where are these warm fuzzies? I didn't get a cyber hug yet.0
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Now I know why I don't post very often. I can't do the coddling, I am a tough love/ constructive criticism type person.
That being said - don't worry those of you who have fallen off the wagon and been flagged yet again. Just start posting within the guidelines and all will be forgiven in a few days. ( that was me trying to coddle).
Cheers, h.-1 -
I don't have much time for pity parties / people not taking responsibility for their own actions, I think I have a s*** or get off the potty kind of approach. That being said I am usually polite and try to give direction to new people who need help - If they refuse to listen and continue to act like a fanny then sometimes they need a bit more of a straight talking approach.0
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My responses are based on what has worked for me. I know for me that I tend to be a perfectionist and if I screw up, I tend to want to throw in the towel altogether because I've already screwed up. So sometimes I need to be reminded that it's okay that I'm not perfect. That just because I got a flat tire doesn't mean I have to slash the other three. That I can just start again tomorrow.
However, I also know that what has worked for me is to simply make a d@mn choice and to keep making that choice everyday. And I find that when I do that... it doesn't matter how tempting certain foods are or how unsupportive my friends/family/MFPals are. I have very little patience with excuses. I made them for 35 years. But once I simply decided to make a choice and take responsibility for my own actions… that's when things started to happen.
When responding, I make my best judgment based on the tone of the OP and how they are responding to other posts. Are they making excuses or are they beating up on themselves? I can be the meanie and the so-called "coddler" both.
That being said… I think it is possible to be brutally honest without being brutal. I try for that.0 -
I agree with that. But "guessing the tone of the OP" on MFP is another na.e for "Russian Roullette". Traps and fake accounts everywhere too. Girls itching for a fight. Angry lynch mobs of 1200 calorie purists. Every conversation in the forums is a trap if you aren't overweight anymore.0
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I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
I dont think it is a minority at all. It's more of a split down the middle.
Those who prefer tough love are usually not posting as often in this section - as they have figured out what kind of support already works for them and it's needed less often - because it catches their attention so well. Some who don't know what works best yet, are often posting continually because they aren't getting what they need, or they need a mixture of both. People who need the constant forgiveness are often posting all the time, looking for that support that needs to be sustained by others.
So in a way it's even kind of introverted / hybrid / extroverted support.
We can't always tell before conversing with someone if they are looking for forgiveness for their food and workout sins (which doesn't actually solve the problem at hand, only the feelings surrounding it - maybe) or if they are asking for someone to pull the wool away from their eyes and snap them out of denial, ya know?
but i definitely don't think we are a minority, we just dont have to ask as often :flowerforyou:
Fair points and sure, this is my perception that the tough love...lovers...are the minority.
As you say if you are giving advice in this section in particular it is hard to know what a person will best respond to when you give it. That said you seem to suggest that those who prefer the tough love approach generally do not post here and the ones seeking "constant forgiveness" are posting all the time. If that is the case then it must stand to reason, your Honour, that the default position must be the one I suggested - the softer approach - because they generally make up the greater number.
It seems perverse to me that the solution to someone who is essentially experiencing emotional distress is to expose them to even more emotional distress to "shock" them back to reality. That may work physically in certain situations but psychologically is less likely to, again my opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I do not wish to stop people getting access to something which genuinely helps them because of what I believe but rather find what works the most and work backwards.
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I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
I dont think it is a minority at all. It's more of a split down the middle.
Those who prefer tough love are usually not posting as often in this section - as they have figured out what kind of support already works for them and it's needed less often - because it catches their attention so well. Some who don't know what works best yet, are often posting continually because they aren't getting what they need, or they need a mixture of both. People who need the constant forgiveness are often posting all the time, looking for that support that needs to be sustained by others.
So in a way it's even kind of introverted / hybrid / extroverted support.
We can't always tell before conversing with someone if they are looking for forgiveness for their food and workout sins (which doesn't actually solve the problem at hand, only the feelings surrounding it - maybe) or if they are asking for someone to pull the wool away from their eyes and snap them out of denial, ya know?
but i definitely don't think we are a minority, we just dont have to ask as often :flowerforyou:
Fair points and sure, this is my perception that the tough love...lovers...are the minority.
As you say if you are giving advice in this section in particular it is hard to know what a person will best respond to when you give it. That said you seem to suggest that those who prefer the tough love approach generally do not post here and the ones seeking "constant forgiveness" are posting all the time. If that is the case then it must stand to reason, that the default position must be the one I suggested - the softer approach - because they generally make up the greater number.
It seems perverse to me that the solution to someone who is essentially experiencing emotional distress is to expose them to even more emotional distress to "shock" them back to reality. That may work physically in certain situations but psychologically is less likely to, again my opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I do not wish to stop people getting access to something which genuinely helps them because of what I believe but rather find what works the most and work backwards.
Tough love and shock treatment are two different things.
Tough love is when someone wants to be lied to and told everything is okay so they aren't to blame for their fumbles, and you tell them information and explain how they are working against themselves and yes, doing something wrong, that is their responsibility. Nicely. Because you care.
Shock treatment is meant to shake a person to the core and it isn't allowed on MFP. Shock treatment would be responding with something like, "fine, stay fat, you stupid mongoloid, its your choice and this is obviously what you want."
That's messed up. They are not the same thing.
The other point here is that while those who prefer tough love aren't often frequent customers, there are always new ones arriving as well as people who had no idea that they may like tough love. And sometimes people change and no longer react effectively to hand holding and look for something realer. The people in MFP cycle around. Those that always want someone else to motivate them will always ask. Sometimes tough love works and sometimes it doesn't. I don't see that as a good enough reason to make it illegal. Or to make anyone's way a 'default'. Putting a default in place is insinuating that there are default humans and I don't agree with that at all.
Then again, I'm not basic, so I'm just sharing my opinion as well.
And if people are constantly asking for others to do for them what they should already know how to do for themselves as an adult - then the default should Not be to continue to enable them. There should be no default at all. Every post gets at least a few comments. Pick the one that works for you like you claim it does and move on instead of wasting your time attacking the one that didn't work.
If hand holding and coddling worked, theyd log off and go workout. But they don't. They sit and commiserate.
And most importantly, we are also thinking about the silent readers who don't post or comment, who just read.
They deserve a variety as well.
We aren't a minority and we aren't giving up on anyone.
Where the forgiving hand holders don't mind leaving people behind, we do and sometimes we give em a little kick in he butt so they can catch up.0 -
I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
I dont think it is a minority at all. It's more of a split down the middle.
Those who prefer tough love are usually not posting as often in this section - as they have figured out what kind of support already works for them and it's needed less often - because it catches their attention so well. Some who don't know what works best yet, are often posting continually because they aren't getting what they need, or they need a mixture of both. People who need the constant forgiveness are often posting all the time, looking for that support that needs to be sustained by others.
So in a way it's even kind of introverted / hybrid / extroverted support.
We can't always tell before conversing with someone if they are looking for forgiveness for their food and workout sins (which doesn't actually solve the problem at hand, only the feelings surrounding it - maybe) or if they are asking for someone to pull the wool away from their eyes and snap them out of denial, ya know?
but i definitely don't think we are a minority, we just dont have to ask as often :flowerforyou:
Fair points and sure, this is my perception that the tough love...lovers...are the minority.
As you say if you are giving advice in this section in particular it is hard to know what a person will best respond to when you give it. That said you seem to suggest that those who prefer the tough love approach generally do not post here and the ones seeking "constant forgiveness" are posting all the time. If that is the case then it must stand to reason, your Honour, that the default position must be the one I suggested - the softer approach - because they generally make up the greater number.
It seems perverse to me that the solution to someone who is essentially experiencing emotional distress is to expose them to even more emotional distress to "shock" them back to reality. That may work physically in certain situations but psychologically is less likely to, again my opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I do not wish to stop people getting access to something which genuinely helps them because of what I believe but rather find what works the most and work backwards.
Tough love and shock treatment are two different things.
Tough love is when someone wants to be lied to and told everything is okay, and you tell them information and explain how they are working against themselves. Nicely. Because you care.
Shock treatment is meant to shake a person to the core and it isn't allowed on MFP. Shock treatment would be responding with something like, fine, stay fat, you stupid mongoloid, its your choice.
That's messed up. They are not the same thing.
The other point here is that whe those who prefer tough love aren't often frequent customers, there are always new ones arriving as well as people who had no idea that they may like tough love. And sometimes people change and no longer react effectively to hand holding and look for something realer. The people in MFP cycle around. Those that always want someone else to motivate them will always ask. Sometimes tough love works and sometimes it doesn't. I don't see that as a good enough reason to make it illegal.
And if people are constantly asking for others to do for them what they should already know how to do for themselves as an adult - then the default should Not be to continue to enable them. There should be no default at all. Every posts gets at least a few comments. Pick the one that works for you and move on instead of wasting your time attacking the one that didn't work.
If hand holding and coddling worked, they log off and go workout. But they don't. They sit and commiserate.
And most importantly, we are also thinking about the silent readers who don't post or comment, who just read.
They deserve a variety as well.
We aren't a minority and we aren't giving up on anyone.
Where the forgiving hand holders don't mind leaving people behind, we do and sometimes we give em a little kick in he butt so they can catch up.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your position. It seems quite reasonable to me and if this is the intention behind the "tough love" advocates here then I am fine with it.
Perhaps the execution of the intention may leave something to be desired on occasion in my view but if more conversations like this take place then MFP will improve for everyone I think.
There are few bad apples here (see what I did there?) but most people want to help.
Salut!
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I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
I dont think it is a minority at all. It's more of a split down the middle.
Those who prefer tough love are usually not posting as often in this section - as they have figured out what kind of support already works for them and it's needed less often - because it catches their attention so well. Some who don't know what works best yet, are often posting continually because they aren't getting what they need, or they need a mixture of both. People who need the constant forgiveness are often posting all the time, looking for that support that needs to be sustained by others.
So in a way it's even kind of introverted / hybrid / extroverted support.
We can't always tell before conversing with someone if they are looking for forgiveness for their food and workout sins (which doesn't actually solve the problem at hand, only the feelings surrounding it - maybe) or if they are asking for someone to pull the wool away from their eyes and snap them out of denial, ya know?
but i definitely don't think we are a minority, we just dont have to ask as often :flowerforyou:
Fair points and sure, this is my perception that the tough love...lovers...are the minority.
As you say if you are giving advice in this section in particular it is hard to know what a person will best respond to when you give it. That said you seem to suggest that those who prefer the tough love approach generally do not post here and the ones seeking "constant forgiveness" are posting all the time. If that is the case then it must stand to reason, your Honour, that the default position must be the one I suggested - the softer approach - because they generally make up the greater number.
It seems perverse to me that the solution to someone who is essentially experiencing emotional distress is to expose them to even more emotional distress to "shock" them back to reality. That may work physically in certain situations but psychologically is less likely to, again my opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I do not wish to stop people getting access to something which genuinely helps them because of what I believe but rather find what works the most and work backwards.
Nope. I know that Yoovie has already addressed this, but I can't seem to keep my mouth shut on this one.
People respond to different approaches. Even people who usually like the "softer approach" can respond better to the occasional "tough love" approach. I usually read and see what kind of approaches they've already been given. If the thread is all "soft", I might add in a tough love. If it's all tough love, I might add in a softer approach. You never know which answer will actually help them that day. (Also for the lurkers)
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SingRunTing wrote: »I usually read and see what kind of approaches they've already been given. If the thread is all "soft", I might add in a tough love. If it's all tough love, I might add in a softer approach. You never know which answer will actually help them that day. (Also for the lurkers)
one hundred thousand percent this.
i do this all the time - it makes me sometimes look like the devil's advocate, but the advocate exists for a reason.
one of these things is not like the other? maybe I should consider it.
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Glad to see this thread has taken on a more civilized tone! No more flags, I hope. I do not advocate being cruel and I think it's great that folks come on here to ask questions and get support from people in similar situations or who have achieved success. I know that weightloss is a physical and mental journey. Some people want/need support for the mental aspects and they should be able to ask for and receive it. But if someone wants a crutch or a pass for not being consistent (doesn't have to be 100% but does have to be most of the time) then I just can't participate in that. Especially since most of us had to go through this journey at one point. If we can/could do it, then anyone can. As with anything that means something to you in life, you have to be committed. And some people just aren't (yet). And that's OK. But I can't make them committed and I'm not going to try. I think being committed has got to be a requirement when you come looking for help from others. You might not know what to do or how to do it. You can get that advice here. But all the work has to be done by the individual. And that takes commitment.0
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People respond to different approaches. Even people who usually like the "softer approach" can respond better to the occasional "tough love" approach. I usually read and see what kind of approaches they've already been given. If the thread is all "soft", I might add in a tough love. If it's all tough love, I might add in a softer approach. You never know which answer will actually help them that day. (Also for the lurkers)
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I agree. Different strokes for different folks.
Also, if someone has a one-off posting about food guilt or something, I'm probably guilty of coddling a little. But if I see that person posting nearly everyday with the same gripes, then I think you owe it to the person to get a little more firm.
Everyone has vastly different ideas of what "tough love" is. Some are perfectly able to find some middle ground, pushing people to challenge themselves and also letting them know that they can move on from whatever slip up happened. Others are just simply rude, but I don't always think it's coming from a bad place. I think most (not all) "meanies" are genuinely coming from a place of trying to be helpful and share what they've learned now that they've dropped the weight, and I do appreciate that. That's a big reason why I joined MFP. That being said, just because you're coming from a good place doesn't mean your actions are always justified. I like the information they give, but I just think it could be packaged or phrased a little differently sometimes. That's all. But it's also a personal preference, and I can't expect near strangers to understand my personal preferences.
All that being said, there are days when I wish people were a little more firm and direct, just a little bit. For instance, I've been really dropping the ball and not making any progress. I'm not just talking being firm and direct on here but in real life, too. I think holding yourself accountable begins with others holding you accountable. You can't learn the skills if you don't see them appropriately modeled first.
When someone gives me a little tough love (i.e., you're never going to lose weight if you keep making excuses and stress is just an excuse), those words stick with me far better and longer than when someone is trying to be more positive and overly loving. I guess it's because those positive things are what got me here in the first place (i.e., always telling myself tomorrow or that it's okay to slip up--yes, it is ok to slip up but it's also really easy to tell yourself these platitudes before you even slip up, giving yourself permission, if you don't also have the other, harsher perspective to balance it out).
At the end of the day, I guess that's what it comes down to for me--balance and perspective.
Just my two cents. 0 -
As with anything that means something to you in life, you have to be committed. And some people just aren't (yet). And that's OK. But I can't make them committed and I'm not going to try. I think being committed has got to be a requirement when you come looking for help from others. You might not know what to do or how to do it. You can get that advice here. But all the work has to be done by the individual. And that takes commitment.
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I think it would help to remember that people are different and respond to different types of support and motivation. Some people need tough lough to get up and go. Some people need to know that someone out there empathizes with them before they can find the strength to pick themselves back up. Some people just need advice from people who have been there before about what works. I think we see a good mix of all three of these when people respond to messages on the support and motivation board. If you have something to add to a post, then add it (tough love or not). If not, move on and stop worrying so much about why other people do not respond exactly as you do to different types of support and/ or motivation.0
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I think it would help to remember that people are different and respond to different types of support and motivation. Some people need tough lough to get up and go. Some people need to know that someone out there empathizes with them before they can find the strength to pick themselves back up. Some people just need advice from people who have been there before about what works. I think we see a good mix of all three of these when people respond to messages on the support and motivation board. If you have something to add to a post, then add it (tough love or not). If not, move on and stop worrying so much about why other people do not respond exactly as you do to different types of support and/ or motivation.
Thanks for your comment. I do move on. But I wondered how many others in cyberspace had a similar/different reaction. Just making "conversation" and trying to get different perspectives.0 -
SingRunTing wrote: »I would also like to add that I do not believe that people should be effectively lied to simply in order to make them feel better. I don't think that helps anyone.
That said the OP, quite rightly, references consistency. I think it is more likely that more people will stay the course if, when they hit a bump in the road, that they are sympathised with to get past the internal conflict than lectured.
So for a person who has binged for example saying "that sucks, it is hard but I am sure tomorrow will be better if you just keep going" will probably secure a better outcome than "you have to want it. No more excuses." It is essentially the same message but delivered in a different way.
And of course, people are different. It is undoubtedly true that some people react well to the tough love approach. My opinion is that they are the minority and as such it shouldn't be the default position.
I dont think it is a minority at all. It's more of a split down the middle.
Those who prefer tough love are usually not posting as often in this section - as they have figured out what kind of support already works for them and it's needed less often - because it catches their attention so well. Some who don't know what works best yet, are often posting continually because they aren't getting what they need, or they need a mixture of both. People who need the constant forgiveness are often posting all the time, looking for that support that needs to be sustained by others.
So in a way it's even kind of introverted / hybrid / extroverted support.
We can't always tell before conversing with someone if they are looking for forgiveness for their food and workout sins (which doesn't actually solve the problem at hand, only the feelings surrounding it - maybe) or if they are asking for someone to pull the wool away from their eyes and snap them out of denial, ya know?
but i definitely don't think we are a minority, we just dont have to ask as often :flowerforyou:
Fair points and sure, this is my perception that the tough love...lovers...are the minority.
As you say if you are giving advice in this section in particular it is hard to know what a person will best respond to when you give it. That said you seem to suggest that those who prefer the tough love approach generally do not post here and the ones seeking "constant forgiveness" are posting all the time. If that is the case then it must stand to reason, your Honour, that the default position must be the one I suggested - the softer approach - because they generally make up the greater number.
It seems perverse to me that the solution to someone who is essentially experiencing emotional distress is to expose them to even more emotional distress to "shock" them back to reality. That may work physically in certain situations but psychologically is less likely to, again my opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I do not wish to stop people getting access to something which genuinely helps them because of what I believe but rather find what works the most and work backwards.
Nope. I know that Yoovie has already addressed this, but I can't seem to keep my mouth shut on this one.
People respond to different approaches. Even people who usually like the "softer approach" can respond better to the occasional "tough love" approach. I usually read and see what kind of approaches they've already been given. If the thread is all "soft", I might add in a tough love. If it's all tough love, I might add in a softer approach. You never know which answer will actually help them that day. (Also for the lurkers)
I hope people don't keep their mouth shut because if we can't discuss these matters then how can we know if things are working or not?
Your approach of balancing out threads with either tough love or the softer approach again sounds sensible and I not something in principle I have a problem with.
However, I think that getting it wrong with the tough love approach may have more potential for setting someone back when getting it wrong than with the softer approach. Of course the context of the thread is important and it seems you are sensitive to that.
So, if you have an OP who isn't really in a place for receiving or responding to a harder approach and lots of people pile in using it then even adding in a sprinkling of a softer approach won't really salvage the situation in my view. Vulnerable people tend to clam up in a situation like that in my opinion and so the ability to reach them can be lost. In the converse situation where the OP is receiving a lot more sympathy which isn't being received then but then responds positively to the tough love approach then there is less likelihood of that happening - they were robust enough to handle the advice in the first place. Hence why I still consider starting with a softer approach as a matter of principle is favourable.
Finally the "I do it for the lurkers as well" thing seems to be a rather convenient get out clause to justify getting it wrong and hurting someone. I've never really bought that line. If a person wants to help lurkers then do it in a separate thread they set up to make the general point. Don't use the OP as a sacrificial lamb for that cause.
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I get emails all the time from people who aren't active in the forums but read ALL THE THREADS, these are mostly people over the age of 50 who don't want to engage in interaction with the general population of a website, but glean through topics finding what works for them.
It's not a cop-out, it's a legitimate demographic on MFP, one that those who have posted their success stories already, are VERY well aware of.
if an OP is not in a headspace to gain all kinds of feedback, then MFP staff encourages them to pose their questions within the confines of a group or to their friends lists and not to general masses, where you have no idea what kind of feedback you will get.
If you can't take the blind advice of strangers, then it may not be the best idea to put your vulnerability on display on a free website.
Or- you can take the replies with a grain of salt, realize these people don't know you and therefore it can't be personal, pick out the replies that actually help and then run off to use them.
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I get emails all the time from people who aren't active in the forums but read ALL THE THREADS, these are mostly people over the age of 50 who don't want to engage in interaction with the general population of a website, but glean through topics finding what works for them.
It's not a cop-out, it's a legitimate demographic on MFP, one that those who have posted their success stories already, are VERY well aware of.
I still don't believe that justifies essentially using the OP to make the general point a legitimate approach. if the point is important then it is easy enough to start a different thread where it can raised can be discussed without reference to the OP themselves. Everyone's a winner.
if an OP is not in a headspace to gain all kinds of feedback, then MFP staff encourages them to pose their questions within the confines of a group or to their friends lists and not to general masses, where you have no idea what kind of feedback you will get.
If you can't take the blind advice of strangers, then it may not be the best idea to put your vulnerability on display on a free website.
Or- you can take the replies with a grain of salt, realize these people don't know you and therefore it can't be personal, pick out the replies that actually help and then run off to use them.
That presumes that people respond to the areas discussed here, but in particular weight loss, rationally rather than emotionally or indeed people are savvy enough to the way forums work to expect that when the first come asking for advice on the forums. I have seen many times where that isn't true and people drop off the site completely due to their initial negative experience.
Sure there are some people who weather the storm but how many people silently disappear into the ether for every one that does that?
I completely agree with your last paragraph however. That is the way it should work. Whether that is the way it actually works is another matter entirely.
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