I can't front squat or clean due to low wrist flexibility!
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Exactly get those elbows up and away you go. I believe I was popping 240-250ish by my third time using the straps. Much more comfortable for me and has my mind extremely confident on where I'm at with my form.
I prefer it. The cross grip I really find myself trying to crank down with my hands, using and wasting a lot of energy. For no real reason, just that I feel I have to.Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »My wrists still aren't open enough, so I use lifting straps.
Takes a little practice, but gets you doing it until you resolve the wrist mo.
Dude, how do you like doing that versus crossing your arms?
*OP: Zercher Squats are no replacement for the Back Squat or Front Squat, they suck; let's not kid around about that. All they do is show how much weight you can cradle in your arms and squat. Front Squat or Back Squat have more carry over to every day functionality and athletics.
With the straps, I know the bar is locked in, as long as I keep my elbows up and my body right. It lets me focus better on the lift, since there is one less concern.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »jesiann2014 wrote: »Honestly, I'm fine with dropping the hack squat from my routine. I never could get a natural feel for it. I will look into the split squat. Thanks (again) for the help.
My question is what is / was the training purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?
I have a list of exercises to choose from for leg day including but not limited to (I don't have the list in front of me at the moment) back squat, front squat, hack squat, lunge, Romanian DL, etc.0 -
ok, but what is the purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?0
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All I wanted to say is that with a lot of work, they do get better over time. I suffered a significant wrist injury in September 2013 and I am still fighting the flexibility and pain issue in catching cleans and to some extent snatches. However, with consistent stretching and strengthening, front rack squats and lunges are no problem and handstand work longer than a minute is possible. A year ago I would have never believed I could do front squats for reps without tremendous pain. I just started working various wrist stretches I found on You Tube and using small dumbbells. Keep at it!0
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ok, but what is the purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?
Well obviously I'm aiming to get stronger, more fit, to work muscles that day to day living doesn't stress significantly. But at the same time I'm learning proper form. With just about every other lift, my form has improved and I found that sweet spot. You know, where the move feels right and targeted muscles are stressed.0 -
I just keep strecthing my wrist using the bar with a little weight in the front squat position. That will, over some time, allow you to get your wrist flexibility up. As for an alternative, when I broke my wrist I did zombie squats.0
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jesiann2014 wrote: »ok, but what is the purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?
Well obviously I'm aiming to get stronger, more fit, to work muscles that day to day living doesn't stress significantly. But at the same time I'm learning proper form. With just about every other lift, my form has improved and I found that sweet spot. You know, where the move feels right and targeted muscles are stressed.
How is that obvious? You might be training for hypertrophy or muscular endurance, or power. It's only obvious once you state it.
What is day to day living? Someone working on a farm is going to have different day to day needs for strength than someone who is housebound. So you're training to train, which is fine, and plenty of folks do it. However, that doesn't address why the front squats are in the program. As you're not training to a specific need, there's not really a reason why you must have them. If you like them, great, but apparently there is no real need for you to kill yourself trying to get the rack right.-1 -
Yeah, about that.amyrebeccah wrote: »And Pika is correct--I'm actually doing back squat in my profile pic.
I'll keep trying with the front squat--I can't do it if I'm going to keep choking like this, but I have a non-oly bar laying around and I can give that a go to see if I can get the hang of it.
Might not want to lean forward like that.
I have to agree with this. Upright torso. Try keeping your elbows under the bar to help correct that.
I find if I feel excessive pressure from the bar on my neck, I am also leaning too far forward. The big reason I put them in my rotation was for this very reason. The front squats help me que(sp?) my squat better.0 -
Thank you dbmata for your input.0
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jesiann2014 wrote: »ok, but what is the purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?
Well obviously I'm aiming to get stronger, more fit, to work muscles that day to day living doesn't stress significantly. But at the same time I'm learning proper form. With just about every other lift, my form has improved and I found that sweet spot. You know, where the move feels right and targeted muscles are stressed.
How is that obvious? You might be training for hypertrophy or muscular endurance, or power. It's only obvious once you state it.
What is day to day living? Someone working on a farm is going to have different day to day needs for strength than someone who is housebound. So you're training to train, which is fine, and plenty of folks do it. However, that doesn't address why the front squats are in the program. As you're not training to a specific need, there's not really a reason why you must have them. If you like them, great, but apparently there is no real need for you to kill yourself trying to get the rack right.
First of all, she was having issues with the hack squats, not front squats.
There's no reason to avoid something entirely if you struggle with it. Even if she's just working out to work out. Even if she's not following a program with a specific goal. I find great value in working on things I struggle with, even if it was hack squats. I think at this point it would be a wise move to not do them for a bit and build up the other lifts. She may come back to hack squats later and realize that foot positioning was off or that her lower back was weak and that working on other lifts helped her with hack squats. She may also find that barbell hack squats just work better for her.
My suggestion is that she picks a goal and a specific program to follow for a while. She'll probably see a bit more progress towards her goal that way.0 -
Indeed, I confused them for the OP.
Working to a strength is good and all, assuming it doesn't impact adherence to a program. I think we all know many people that fell off because something was hard, or they just weren't getting it, so it cued a loss of adherence.
Hack squats though, I only see folks do them in a smith. I agree with dropping them off for a while, increase overall conditioning and trying them again. That's what I'm doing with cleans.0 -
jesiann2014 wrote: »ok, but what is the purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?
Well obviously I'm aiming to get stronger, more fit, to work muscles that day to day living doesn't stress significantly. But at the same time I'm learning proper form. With just about every other lift, my form has improved and I found that sweet spot. You know, where the move feels right and targeted muscles are stressed.
Aside from the Hack Squat, what does your "Leg Day" look like?
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »jesiann2014 wrote: »ok, but what is the purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?
Well obviously I'm aiming to get stronger, more fit, to work muscles that day to day living doesn't stress significantly. But at the same time I'm learning proper form. With just about every other lift, my form has improved and I found that sweet spot. You know, where the move feels right and targeted muscles are stressed.
Aside from the Hack Squat, what does your "Leg Day" look like?
Well today happens to be leg day. It will look something like this:
1st warm-up set (back squat) - 12 reps of 30% of my max which was 85 lbs last week
2nd warm-up set (back squat) - 10 reps at 50% of max
3rd warm-up set (back squat) - 8 reps at 80% max
3 sets/8 reps back squat at hopefully 90 lbs
3 sets/8 reps front squat (going to try the cross arm hold; was doing hacks here, then replaced with more backs because hack just wasn't hacking it. lol)
3 sets/8 reps lunge at 55 lbs (been at 50 here for a few weeks..:( Hope to move up)
3 sets/8reps Romanian DL (I think I did 75 lbs last week, try for 80 today)
That's what a leg day for me looks like.
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jesiann2014 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »jesiann2014 wrote: »ok, but what is the purpose for having it in your training? What are your goals?
Well obviously I'm aiming to get stronger, more fit, to work muscles that day to day living doesn't stress significantly. But at the same time I'm learning proper form. With just about every other lift, my form has improved and I found that sweet spot. You know, where the move feels right and targeted muscles are stressed.
Aside from the Hack Squat, what does your "Leg Day" look like?
Well today happens to be leg day. It will look something like this:
1st warm-up set (back squat) - 12 reps of 30% of my max which was 85 lbs last week
2nd warm-up set (back squat) - 10 reps at 50% of max
3rd warm-up set (back squat) - 8 reps at 80% max
3 sets/8 reps back squat at hopefully 90 lbs
3 sets/8 reps front squat (going to try the cross arm hold; was doing hacks here, then replaced with more backs because hack just wasn't hacking it. lol)
3 sets/8 reps lunge at 55 lbs (been at 50 here for a few weeks..:( Hope to move up)
3 sets/8reps Romanian DL (I think I did 75 lbs last week, try for 80 today)
That's what a leg day for me looks like.
Interesting. One thing you may consider is using the Back Squat for heavier loads and lower volume and using the Front Squat for a more moderate load for more volume. How are you feeling by that 3rd warm-up set? Assuming your BS 1RM is about 110, then something like...
BS @ 80 for 5x5 *on-days you're feeling really good, try for 1 set of 5 @ 85, and maybe 1 set of 5 @ 90, increase in 5% increments. Increase the 80lbs to 90lbs after 3 weeks
FS @ ### for 3-5 x 6-8reps *increase weight in-conjunction with BS*
Lunge @ 1-3 for 8-10
RDL @ 1-3 for 8-10 *for a little "fun" you could super-set the RDL -> Lunge*
RE Warm-up: unless you really feel you need that much volume I would reduce it.
Only the bar x 10
50 x 5
60 x 5
75 x 3
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Sam, thank you so much. That's some solid input and I really appreciate the time you took to lay it out. One thing I didn't mention is that I'll be trying the split squat today. I've not implemented this move before so I won't even use the 45 lb bar at first. Just want to get a feel for it.
Again, thank you. Looking forward to getting home and trying out your suggestions. It's so helpful when the more 'seasoned' lifters offer sound advice. Yep, that's a shout-out to you too, USMCMP.
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I find it a lot easier to use dbs for a bulgarian split squat. I think without excellent balance, it might be difficult to keep from dumping or dropping the bar.0
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jesiann2014 wrote: »I've not implemented this move before so I won't even use the 45 lb bar at first. Just want to get a feel for it.
That's a very good idea. If your gym has a mini-Olympic bar or even an EZ Curl bar, you may even start with one of those, because I would say that BSS's are tricky with the bar. I kind of like the BSS's with a bar as opposed to DB's because using the bar, in my opinion at least, really requires a greater degree of stabilization from support musculature. If not, then use DB's like DBMata suggests. Probably don't need to do lunges though if you're doing those.0 -
bump
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I find it a lot easier to use dbs for a bulgarian split squat. I think without excellent balance, it might be difficult to keep from dumping or dropping the bar.
I'll stick to learning and perfecting the regular split squat before trying the Bulgarian ss. It's that 'excellent balance' that you reference... I'm lacking there a bit.0 -
so then I'm a little confused. What's the difference?
I just learned today what I call single leg lunges is the bulgarian ss.0 -
so then I'm a little confused. What's the difference?
I just learned today what I call single leg lunges is the bulgarian ss.
Lunges have you "lunging" forward (or backward), going down then pushing back up to the starting positions.
Split squats have your legs in stationary positions (one front, one back) and you lower down and back up. No lunging motion.
Bulgarian split squats is when you have the back leg elevated on a bench. These are harder because it requires more balance and you'll be going deeper down, essentially. Also, unlike the split squat, most of the effort (I'd say like 75-85%) of the movement is focused on the front leg with the back elevated leg offering minimal support.
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amyrebeccah wrote: »
Thanks--I know it wasn't perfect (partly because of my form issues and partly because of the camera angle). Just wanted to make the point that I wasn't going to suddenly stop trying in favor of zerchers.
Yeah, about that.amyrebeccah wrote: »And Pika is correct--I'm actually doing back squat in my profile pic.
I'll keep trying with the front squat--I can't do it if I'm going to keep choking like this, but I have a non-oly bar laying around and I can give that a go to see if I can get the hang of it.
Might not want to lean forward like that.
I have to agree with this. Upright torso. Try keeping your elbows under the bar to help correct that.
edit: I know I need to not lean so far forward, but on a low bar squat, is it even possible to get my elbows under the bar?
I actually went super-light just to try it out last night with a 12.5 pound bar and did ok with keeping it off my throat. I'm going to see if I can gradually work up in weight with the dinky bar (I have plates for that too) and hope that by the time I get up to the 45 pound bar I'll have developed a good method.
since no one has addressed this yet- yes but no.
on a low bar squat- you're never going to have the elbows as tucked front.
but from the image you have now- you're actually round through the back. You're elbows looked like they are very out and up- even with low bar your elbows wind up tucked back- not so far up- remember you've got a shelf you're trying to make with those back muscles.
Sooooooo I think the cue of "upright torso" might be misleading- because I'd say you're need to stand up straighter with a not curved back- you're bent under the bar before you ever start the squat- it looks very much like you're low back is carrying ALL the weight.0 -
PikaKnight wrote: »Bulgarian split squats is when you have the back leg elevated on a bench. These are harder because it requires more balance and you'll be going deeper down, essentially. Also, unlike the split squat, most of the effort (I'd say like 75-85%) of the movement is focused on the front leg with the back elevated leg offering minimal support.
Thanks for that, I learned something new. As far as SS's are concerned I had never known anything other than BSS's.0 -
ohhhh I didn't realize we weren't all on the same page!!!
Sam you know so much!! I assumed you knew! Whoops.0 -
PikaKnight wrote: »so then I'm a little confused. What's the difference?
I just learned today what I call single leg lunges is the bulgarian ss.
Lunges have you "lunging" forward (or backward), going down then pushing back up to the starting positions.
Split squats have your legs in stationary positions (one front, one back) and you lower down and back up. No lunging motion.
Bulgarian split squats is when you have the back leg elevated on a bench. These are harder because it requires more balance and you'll be going deeper down, essentially. Also, unlike the split squat, most of the effort (I'd say like 75-85%) of the movement is focused on the front leg with the back elevated leg offering minimal support.
Ahhh, so you don't elevate the foot with the split squat. Essentially you'd be taking an olympic styled one leg back position and drop to depth. Interesting.
Sadly, I've only ever done Bulgarians when it comes to single leg stuff.
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Try the cross arm.0
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PikaKnight wrote: »so then I'm a little confused. What's the difference?
I just learned today what I call single leg lunges is the bulgarian ss.
Lunges have you "lunging" forward (or backward), going down then pushing back up to the starting positions.
Split squats have your legs in stationary positions (one front, one back) and you lower down and back up. No lunging motion.
Bulgarian split squats is when you have the back leg elevated on a bench. These are harder because it requires more balance and you'll be going deeper down, essentially. Also, unlike the split squat, most of the effort (I'd say like 75-85%) of the movement is focused on the front leg with the back elevated leg offering minimal support.
Ahhh, so you don't elevate the foot with the split squat. Essentially you'd be taking an olympic styled one leg back position and drop to depth. Interesting.
Sadly, I've only ever done Bulgarians when it comes to single leg stuff.
Another type of one legged squat (if you are interested or looking for a different variation) are skater squats.
These are supposed to be harder than Bulgarians since the back foot isn't used as part of the movement. (Well the full movement/exercise. Usually you do use the back foot a little as you build up strength). This is where you are solely on the front and go down until the knee hits the ground/pad.
And another exercise that works the legs pretty good like Bulgarians are high step ups (and you can do Barbell variations of these too to make them more challenging). You could also do Deficit Reverse Lunges.
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I do weighted step ups like they're going out of style. My trainer loves the hell out of them. Nothing like seeing two 50# dbs sitting in front of a 30" box and being told: 1 rep per pound.
The panic you feel when you wonder if he means per pound of dumbbell weight, or my bodyweight...0 -
I do weighted step ups like they're going out of style. My trainer loves the hell out of them. Nothing like seeing two 50# dbs sitting in front of a 30" box and being told: 1 rep per pound.
The panic you feel when you wonder if he means per pound of dumbbell weight, or my bodyweight...
:laugh:
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There are some Wednesdays, and Thursdays, and Fridays that I wish that was just a joke, because that's per set.
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