Bad advice - Don't log/eat back exercise calories
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Where I think there is value though is saying that equating calories burned to food (ate a donut, now I need to burn X amount of calories) isn't the healthiest way to approach the relationship between diet and exercise.
I agree with this, but I don't think the general acknowledgement that if you exercise more your maintenance is higher (and so what you'd eat to lose is higher too, assume the goal per week remains the same). I switched over to TDEE method, but it's certainly in the back of my mind that I gained in the first place because I went from very active to inactive (estimated TDEE of 2100-2200 to probably about 1600) without changing my diet.
I think it's totally right that it's probably easier to go with a rough estimate of exercise when you set your calorie goal rather than try to log it back precisely (although if it gives an incentive to exercise at first that can be good, if potentially unhealthy if taken too far). But the problem is when people at MFP twist this to mean that it's bad to eat back exercise calories even when you have a goal that doesn't take them into account at all and instead assumes you are completely sedentary.0 -
I agree that seeing food as anything other than fuel (or something to be shared and enjoyed and recipes/cooking skills as a growing knowledge base), - seeing it as currency, punishment, rewards, in my brain all of those things turned into habits lead to an unhealthy relationship with food.
this does not mean I disagree with eating or not eating back extra calories burned during a workout - that is personal fuel management and works differently (even if only slightly) in each body and brain.
+1
ETA - Yoovie, what I love about this concept is that it takes into account the bigger picture, the one that goes beyond CICO in terms of exercise. You and I make exercise a lifestyle. It's how we burn stress, gain muscle, get stronger, feel better, meet cool people and so on and so forth. It's so much more than, "I have to go to the gym just so I can eat something." And when your life becomes fitness, a donut that puts you 100 over the calorie allotment is a tiny tiny blip (if you can even call it a blip) on the big picture.
I nodded til my head fell off.
Agreed- you and I have definitely been on the other side of the whole 'making a lifestyle change.'
We already made it. A very long time ago - in fact i cant remember the mindset i used to have that needed to be changed, only that it was way wrong and hurting/hindering me and my progress and had lots to do with what I did and didn't deserve.
I workout. All the time. Because that is what my totally 100% normal natural state of existence is. I dont decide to go to the gym. The gym is where I am.
It's part of the load bearing columns of my life.
Career.
Health and Fitness.
Personal relationships.
The foundation of my entire life.
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^^ LOL
I never struggled with needing to make a life style change and took me a while to find the words that needed to be said in order to explain it to other people because I've lived most of my life like that.
But yeah- once you're in it- it's hard to remember what/if ever your life was like without it.
I do not relate to the check box mentality of "yes I got my workout in today". At all.
This only clicked for me a year ago and I coudn't be more thankful it did.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Where I think there is value though is saying that equating calories burned to food (ate a donut, now I need to burn X amount of calories) isn't the healthiest way to approach the relationship between diet and exercise.
I agree with this, but I don't think the general acknowledgement that if you exercise more your maintenance is higher (and so what you'd eat to lose is higher too, assume the goal per week remains the same). I switched over to TDEE method, but it's certainly in the back of my mind that I gained in the first place because I went from very active to inactive (estimated TDEE of 2100-2200 to probably about 1600) without changing my diet.
I think it's totally right that it's probably easier to go with a rough estimate of exercise when you set your calorie goal rather than try to log it back precisely (although if it gives an incentive to exercise at first that can be good, if potentially unhealthy if taken too far). But the problem is when people at MFP twist this to mean that it's bad to eat back exercise calories even when you have a goal that doesn't take them into account at all and instead assumes you are completely sedentary.
Yeah, I think that the way someone allocates calories for fuel is a totally personal decision. I should just move to increasing my daily goal and not logging exercise calories at all - I think I've just been lazy about getting it set up that way. I do log my exercise calories - and I do eat them back. But I also don't care if I go over on days when I don't get to the gym. (1400 calories v. 1700 calories).0 -
I didn't read the article but I will say that I had little to no progress with my weightloss until I stopped logging/eating my exercise calories. I just know that it's ok to eat a little more on days I'm super active. So far, this process is working.0
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It says in the article, "I am talking about exercise without explicit dietary intervention".
Honestly, I didn't really read past that!
I know far too many people who think that because they spend 45 mins on the treadmill every morning, or are doing P90x, that they can eat whatever they want. When people find out I am keeping a food log, there response is often - Really, why? I thought you work out? There is a very common misconception that if you work out regularly, some magic happens that burns off everything you eat. That is who this article was for, and for them I think it would be helpful.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Where I think there is value though is saying that equating calories burned to food (ate a donut, now I need to burn X amount of calories) isn't the healthiest way to approach the relationship between diet and exercise.
I agree with this, but I don't think the general acknowledgement that if you exercise more your maintenance is higher (and so what you'd eat to lose is higher too, assume the goal per week remains the same). I switched over to TDEE method, but it's certainly in the back of my mind that I gained in the first place because I went from very active to inactive (estimated TDEE of 2100-2200 to probably about 1600) without changing my diet.
I think it's totally right that it's probably easier to go with a rough estimate of exercise when you set your calorie goal rather than try to log it back precisely (although if it gives an incentive to exercise at first that can be good, if potentially unhealthy if taken too far). But the problem is when people at MFP twist this to mean that it's bad to eat back exercise calories even when you have a goal that doesn't take them into account at all and instead assumes you are completely sedentary.
Yeah, I think that the way someone allocates calories for fuel is a totally personal decision. I should just move to increasing my daily goal and not logging exercise calories at all - I think I've just been lazy about getting it set up that way. I do log my exercise calories - and I do eat them back. But I also don't care if I go over on days when I don't get to the gym. (1400 calories v. 1700 calories).
just an FYI- switching from eat back to TDEE- is weird.
there are days when I'm really REALLY hangry- and flat out pizzed the fug off that I cannot/am not supposed to eat more despite having a hard workout and I'm really hungry.
It takes some time.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Where I think there is value though is saying that equating calories burned to food (ate a donut, now I need to burn X amount of calories) isn't the healthiest way to approach the relationship between diet and exercise.
I agree with this, but I don't think the general acknowledgement that if you exercise more your maintenance is higher (and so what you'd eat to lose is higher too, assume the goal per week remains the same). I switched over to TDEE method, but it's certainly in the back of my mind that I gained in the first place because I went from very active to inactive (estimated TDEE of 2100-2200 to probably about 1600) without changing my diet.
I think it's totally right that it's probably easier to go with a rough estimate of exercise when you set your calorie goal rather than try to log it back precisely (although if it gives an incentive to exercise at first that can be good, if potentially unhealthy if taken too far). But the problem is when people at MFP twist this to mean that it's bad to eat back exercise calories even when you have a goal that doesn't take them into account at all and instead assumes you are completely sedentary.
Yeah, I think that the way someone allocates calories for fuel is a totally personal decision. I should just move to increasing my daily goal and not logging exercise calories at all - I think I've just been lazy about getting it set up that way. I do log my exercise calories - and I do eat them back. But I also don't care if I go over on days when I don't get to the gym. (1400 calories v. 1700 calories).
just an FYI- switching from eat back to TDEE- is weird.
there are days when I'm really REALLY hangry- and flat out pizzed the fug off that I cannot/am not supposed to eat more despite having a hard workout and I'm really hungry.
It takes some time.
I think it's the last piece of the switch ;-)
I have such an inactive job, it's hard to let go of that a little bit. Even though in reality I'm pretty much already doing it. And I don't log every day (just because), so my diary isn't the best reflection all the time, but there are a lot of days when I eat at maintenance.0 -
# the struggle IS real.
I work 8-430 at a desk/bouncy ball.
gym 3x a week- and then dance 3 times a week.
seriously... EVER snack counts.
People are flabbergasted that I eat as little as I do- and I'm barely losing- because I sit ALL day... even the extra gym/studio work doesn't compensate for that sitting.
So yeah- holding on to that scrap of snack when switching to TDEE is hard.
But I think it's better- I switched officially October 1... I think it's better- less likely to eff up an assumption on calorie burns.0 -
StaciMarie1974 wrote: »Maybe I have some bro-science stuck in my head, but I thought muscle burns more calories than fat. If that is true, wouldn't the muscular 200 pound man burn more doing the same intensity/time/etc. than the unfit/high in fat 200 pound man?
Have always heard you burn less as you get better at something, and perhaps its because other dynamics change. But then its also common, I think, for someone to find areas to improve as they get more fit/more experienced in an exercise. Speed, duration, etc. for example. And that would offset any diminishing effects.
A bit of bro-science mixed with reality as is all too common in the fitness game!
Yes muscle requires more calories for the body to maintain than fat but both numbers are very low. Per pound of fat per day - 2 cals, for pound of muscle 6 cals.
That the muscular person can produce more power isn't relevant at all - in my example both people are only producing enough power to lift 200lbs up a flight of stairs.
Yes there are differences in most activities - a good runner is more efficient than a plodder for example. But the difference is small compared to weight & power.
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^^ LOL
I never struggled with needing to make a life style change and took me a while to find the words that needed to be said in order to explain it to other people because I've lived most of my life like that.
But yeah- once you're in it- it's hard to remember what/if ever your life was like without it.
I do not relate to the check box mentality of "yes I got my workout in today". At all.
This only clicked for me a year ago and I coudn't be more thankful it did.
I want this. Until it happens, I'm a little bit on the "exercise = more food" side but I try to think about that along with the "keep the fat away from my organs" side of things. So... maybe a transition is happening. A few years ago I would have said exercise = more food and that was that. So I wonder if all these things being discussed are all part of the process, really. And each of us takes a different amount of time at each step.0 -
The article assumes one can't track exercise calories accurately. That would also imply that you cannot track food calories or your normal calorie burn either.
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A fit, muscular 200lb person walking up stairs will burn the same number of calories as an unfit, fat 200lb person walking up stairs. There may be very small efficiencies that come into it but because it's easy for one and hard for the other has very little to do with energy expended.
Bingo.
The fit person can put out the same watts without feeling as much perceived effort. But they're still putting out those watts.
Or, another way of saying it, at the same level of perceived effort the fitter person is putting out more watts and doing more work.
But kCal don't care how much work you feel like you're doing. It's all about how much work you are actually doing.
There is another source of confusion here - with fitness gains often also come technical/effeciency gains. When I first started swimming, a 2:30/100 was a monumental effort. Now 2:00/100 feels leisurely bordering on sedentary. This is partially from fitness gain, but also because I'm a better swimmer and swimming more effeciently. So, yes, if I was still doing a 60 minute workout of 2:30/100s, I would be burning a lot less kCal than when I started. But of course nobody does that - as you gain fitness, you keep pushing your performance envelope.
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One other thing: most of this is a lot more about behavioral psychology than exercise physiology. Whatever mental tricks work for one person can be discouraging or crazy-making for someone else. If you figure out what works for you behaviorally, you are likely to meet your goals.
For comparison, think of an accountant who likes to spend. They know the numbers and they know why they're in debt, but that doesn't really help because it isn't an accounting problem - it's a behavior problem.0 -
I find tracking my workouts to be motivating. Also, I can use my exercise notes to figure out what day of the 30 day shred I'm on, when I lose track. I'm just tickled those couple of days a week that I have no net calories. The MFP weight prediction for those days is awesome....Of course, I don't eat back all my exercise calories, but it's nice to have a little buffer...0
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# the struggle IS real.
I work 8-430 at a desk/bouncy ball.
gym 3x a week- and then dance 3 times a week.
seriously... EVER snack counts.
People are flabbergasted that I eat as little as I do- and I'm barely losing- because I sit ALL day... even the extra gym/studio work doesn't compensate for that sitting.
So yeah- holding on to that scrap of snack when switching to TDEE is hard.
But I think it's better- I switched officially October 1... I think it's better- less likely to eff up an assumption on calorie burns.
Every snack counts...that should be a T-Shirt!0 -
Exercise burns food consumed, lol.
And yes, everyone should use whatever mental tricks work for them. For me, the currency model has been life-changing. Exercise = money earned, food = money spent.
Used to be in debt, now earning more than I make and losing for the first time in my life.
And no eating disorder! Just math!
Exercise doesn't just burn food consumed....
and like everyone has said about 6 times, congratulations. gold star. good for you. woohoo times two.
just because this is what works for you and your special mindset doesn't mean it works for us or that we agree or should agree.
For me, using the food as currency method, would go hand in hand with the whole idea of using shame and negativity and deprivation of love and self-worth as workout motivators.
Within a month, I would only eat if i was naked, sitting indian style in front of a full length mirror so I would be sure to not be such a pig and could earn myself a happy day, if i behave and don't spend any calories.
Sorry to hear you have such troubles with food!
I don't have much time for exercise and I don't enjoy it. I know that some people do enjoy it and have lots of time for it, and therefore have to worry about calories less than I do.
Guess what! We're all different! You're not unhealthy, and neither am I! Gold star for you too, because you've found something that works for you!
I don't have shame or negativity about food. In fact, knowing my budget has helped me feel good about whatever I'm eating. For the first time in my life, I'm not afraid of food.
But I do eat my entire caloric allotment almost every day, and that allotment changes depending on my daily exercise levels. Pretty simple math.
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Exercise burns food consumed, lol.
And yes, everyone should use whatever mental tricks work for them. For me, the currency model has been life-changing. Exercise = money earned, food = money spent.
Used to be in debt, now earning more than I make and losing for the first time in my life.
And no eating disorder! Just math!
Exercise doesn't just burn food consumed....
and like everyone has said about 6 times, congratulations. gold star. good for you. woohoo times two.
just because this is what works for you and your special mindset doesn't mean it works for us or that we agree or should agree.
For me, using the food as currency method, would go hand in hand with the whole idea of using shame and negativity and deprivation of love and self-worth as workout motivators.
Within a month, I would only eat if i was naked, sitting indian style in front of a full length mirror so I would be sure to not be such a pig and could earn myself a happy day, if i behave and don't spend any calories.
Sorry to hear you have such troubles with food!
I don't have much time for exercise and I don't enjoy it. I know that some people do enjoy it and have lots of time for it, and therefore have to worry about calories less than I do.
Guess what! We're all different! You're not unhealthy, and neither am I! Gold star for you too, because you've found something that works for you!
I don't have shame or negativity about food. In fact, knowing my budget has helped me feel good about whatever I'm eating. For the first time in my life, I'm not afraid of food.
But I do eat my entire caloric allotment almost every day, and that allotment changes depending on my daily exercise levels. Pretty simple math.
Funny, for someone who has it all together, you sure took a simple and valid point personally.0 -
^^ LOL
I never struggled with needing to make a life style change and took me a while to find the words that needed to be said in order to explain it to other people because I've lived most of my life like that.
But yeah- once you're in it- it's hard to remember what/if ever your life was like without it.
I do not relate to the check box mentality of "yes I got my workout in today". At all.
This only clicked for me a year ago and I coudn't be more thankful it did.
I want this. Until it happens, I'm a little bit on the "exercise = more food" side but I try to think about that along with the "keep the fat away from my organs" side of things. So... maybe a transition is happening. A few years ago I would have said exercise = more food and that was that. So I wonder if all these things being discussed are all part of the process, really. And each of us takes a different amount of time at each step.
If you want it you will absolutely get there. It sounds like you are already on your way! For me, it happened because I found a community I really love. I got started by setting a Tough Mudder goal for myself but once I completed that I loved my workout so much I stuck with it. Now it's just...life. It is all part of a process.0 -
# the struggle IS real.
I work 8-430 at a desk/bouncy ball.
gym 3x a week- and then dance 3 times a week.
seriously... EVER snack counts.
People are flabbergasted that I eat as little as I do- and I'm barely losing- because I sit ALL day... even the extra gym/studio work doesn't compensate for that sitting.
So yeah- holding on to that scrap of snack when switching to TDEE is hard.
But I think it's better- I switched officially October 1... I think it's better- less likely to eff up an assumption on calorie burns.
It sounds like you have a lot of the same issues I do, specifically the desk job. Feel free to friend me.
I've switched to a standing desk, which I don't think burns a lot of calories but does improve my flexibility and makes me feel far less tired (after some getting used to it!) I now stand from 8 to 3-ish, and then sit for the last hour or two. Next step will be a treadmill desk.
I agree that a huge issue is that people don't understand that you're either doing TDEE or non-TDEE + exercise, but not both. Because I'm set to "sedentary" I can log all exercise. But if you're set to "active" (like if you have a physical job), then your exercise burns probably aren't any more than your normal day-to-day life, so if you log exercise, you're double-counting.
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I think Jo is well aware of that0
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