A bit of a question about losing fat versus building muscle.
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candacefausset
Posts: 297 Member
Ok, so everyone always say you can't build muscle and lose fat at the same time because losing fat requires a calorie deficit and putting on muscle requires a calorie increase.
But 9 times out of 10, when someone says something about a plateau or stalling, many of the answers are "You are probably just gaining muscle. Muscle weighs more than fat."
So the latter is wrong, right? Because you can't build muscle while losing fat, only attempt to keep as much as you can, right? Or do I not understand the process still. I'm just trying to learn what I can and making sure I understand everything I can. Knowledge is power after all.
But 9 times out of 10, when someone says something about a plateau or stalling, many of the answers are "You are probably just gaining muscle. Muscle weighs more than fat."
So the latter is wrong, right? Because you can't build muscle while losing fat, only attempt to keep as much as you can, right? Or do I not understand the process still. I'm just trying to learn what I can and making sure I understand everything I can. Knowledge is power after all.
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Yeah those people are usually wrong. They might be trying to say something encouraging, but in most cases they're just repeating an oft-heard myth.
When people stall or plateau, it's usually because weight loss isn't linear and sometimes the body does that. Or it could also be because of inaccuracies in logging (food calories and/or exercise burns) that only become apparent when the margin of error is smaller. Or some combination of the two.0 -
Yeah those people are usually wrong. They might be trying to say something encouraging, but in most cases they're just repeating an oft-heard myth.
When people stall or plateau, it's usually because weight loss isn't linear and sometimes the body does that. Or it could also be because of inaccuracies in logging (food calories and/or exercise burns) that only become apparent when the margin of error is smaller. Or some combination of the two.
This.
A lot of those responses, if you look, are from posters who are new as well. Not to say that everyone who is new to MFP does not understand this concept. Like segacs says, many are trying to be helpful. (I was thinking about it today though. It is really the opposite).0 -
I think there's a few ways to look at this, I'm guessing from logic and experience, not an expert, don't claim to be... haha
1. The losing fat/gaining muscle v calorie deficit/increase is for major weight loss/major muscle increase. I do think it's possible to increase muscle a bit while losing fat for instance, but the main idea is; pick a goal because they're contradictory goals.
2. It's possible that when someone plateaus (after losing weight) their maintenance calorie intake level drops, probably not significantly but enough to mean that they might be eating over their cals... and gaining muscle... or just remaining the same...
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Some people, can experience minor gains if they are new to lifting. In general that quote comes from people who are misinformed. Stalling can have many reasons, however "gaining muscle" is only very very rarely the case.
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You understand correctly.
when people make that statement I chalk it up to my Bioelectric Scale therory , using a B.S. The readout will show that your bf% goes down and LMM% goes up. some misinturpt that as gaining muscle mass = my B.S. Therory0 -
So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.0
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You CAN build muscle and lose fat at the same time because they are separate semi-independent processes. If by same time, you mean "same second / minute / hour" then maybe not because catabolic hormones and processes (the ones that break things down) can't necessarily happen at the same time as anabolic hormones and processes.
As an example, though, while you're sleeping, if you're in caloric deficit you'll burn some fat, but if you have enough amino acids and vitamins and minerals and the right fats in your blood streat, you'll also be building muscle.
A simpler answer - do the right things overall and don't worry about trying to micromanage your body's metabolic processes. It's smarter than all of us put together, and given the right basics can probably do things right.0 -
candacefausset wrote: »So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.
You can get stronger, or at least become more efficient at lifting weight, on a deficit. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S. I like your victory rolls.0 -
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candacefausset wrote: »arditarose wrote: »
P.S. I like your victory rolls.
Thank you! I wear them as often as I can!
I was doing them last winter a lot, with bangs. I haven't done them this year. I dress a little differently now that I've lost the weight and they don't seem to go. I have to do them again soon.0 -
I'm soon to get my hair cut so I will be doing a lot of pincurl sets. But I still want to keep it long enough to throw in some victory rolls once in a while. My arms do get a tiny workout just from being up there so long, curling my hip length hair!arditarose wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »arditarose wrote: »
P.S. I like your victory rolls.
Thank you! I wear them as often as I can!
I was doing them last winter a lot, with bangs. I haven't done them this year. I dress a little differently now that I've lost the weight and they don't seem to go. I have to do them again soon.
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You can build muscle while at a deficit, it is just difficult. But consider that even if you could somehow do so easily, you would still loss weight while gaining that muscle mass, because you wouldn't be adding materials to the system as quickly as the system is using them.0
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candacefausset wrote: »So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.
Strength and muscle growth are two different things. Most strength gains come from training your nervous system to properly use the muscle you have (it's called "neuromuscular adaptation.") I like to describe it like lifting a box with ropes. You have a crane with 4 ropes. To lift a light box, you might only need a single rope, and the others just hang free. Now, for a heavier box, you go ahead and attach the other 3 ropes to the box, because you need the extra rope to support and lift. You didn't add more rope to the crane, you just used more of the ones that were there.
Muscles work the same way. Untrained means muscle tissue is there, buy maybe your brain is only telling half of that muscle to fire, because it uses less energy and you never need more than that anyway. Then you lift something heavy, and suddenly your brain realizes that it needs to start using more muscle. So it starts telling your body to prep more muscle, waking up nerves, shuttling some glycogen from your liver to the muscle, so next time you lift, it's easier. You didn't add any muscle, you're just making better use of what's there. That's what most strength gains are in the beginning, the first few months to a year. After that, strength gains drop to a crawl, that's when you're waiting for actual muscle tissue growth to happen.0 -
tigersword wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.
Strength and muscle growth are two different things. Most strength gains come from training your nervous system to properly use the muscle you have (it's called "neuromuscular adaptation.") I like to describe it like lifting a box with ropes. You have a crane with 4 ropes. To lift a light box, you might only need a single rope, and the others just hang free. Now, for a heavier box, you go ahead and attach the other 3 ropes to the box, because you need the extra rope to support and lift. You didn't add more rope to the crane, you just used more of the ones that were there.
Muscles work the same way. Untrained means muscle tissue is there, buy maybe your brain is only telling half of that muscle to fire, because it uses less energy and you never need more than that anyway. Then you lift something heavy, and suddenly your brain realizes that it needs to start using more muscle. So it starts telling your body to prep more muscle, waking up nerves, shuttling some glycogen from your liver to the muscle, so next time you lift, it's easier. You didn't add any muscle, you're just making better use of what's there. That's what most strength gains are in the beginning, the first few months to a year. After that, strength gains drop to a crawl, that's when you're waiting for actual muscle tissue growth to happen.
Yep. This is where I am with my "strength". A dead crawl, but too fat to bulk.0 -
tigersword wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.
Strength and muscle growth are two different things. Most strength gains come from training your nervous system to properly use the muscle you have (it's called "neuromuscular adaptation.") I like to describe it like lifting a box with ropes. You have a crane with 4 ropes. To lift a light box, you might only need a single rope, and the others just hang free. Now, for a heavier box, you go ahead and attach the other 3 ropes to the box, because you need the extra rope to support and lift. You didn't add more rope to the crane, you just used more of the ones that were there.
Muscles work the same way. Untrained means muscle tissue is there, buy maybe your brain is only telling half of that muscle to fire, because it uses less energy and you never need more than that anyway. Then you lift something heavy, and suddenly your brain realizes that it needs to start using more muscle. So it starts telling your body to prep more muscle, waking up nerves, shuttling some glycogen from your liver to the muscle, so next time you lift, it's easier. You didn't add any muscle, you're just making better use of what's there. That's what most strength gains are in the beginning, the first few months to a year. After that, strength gains drop to a crawl, that's when you're waiting for actual muscle tissue growth to happen.
So would you suggest, if my fat loss takes longer than a year (I don't think it will but I also don't want to have to rush everything) to go ahead and do a bulking phase in order to gain more muscle and strength after the strength gains have slowed or stopped? I know I am thinking long term and maybe I should just focus on the here and now but I enjoy having a game plan. Plus the knowledge is helpful and hopefully something I can one day impart on others.0 -
candacefausset wrote: »tigersword wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.
Strength and muscle growth are two different things. Most strength gains come from training your nervous system to properly use the muscle you have (it's called "neuromuscular adaptation.") I like to describe it like lifting a box with ropes. You have a crane with 4 ropes. To lift a light box, you might only need a single rope, and the others just hang free. Now, for a heavier box, you go ahead and attach the other 3 ropes to the box, because you need the extra rope to support and lift. You didn't add more rope to the crane, you just used more of the ones that were there.
Muscles work the same way. Untrained means muscle tissue is there, buy maybe your brain is only telling half of that muscle to fire, because it uses less energy and you never need more than that anyway. Then you lift something heavy, and suddenly your brain realizes that it needs to start using more muscle. So it starts telling your body to prep more muscle, waking up nerves, shuttling some glycogen from your liver to the muscle, so next time you lift, it's easier. You didn't add any muscle, you're just making better use of what's there. That's what most strength gains are in the beginning, the first few months to a year. After that, strength gains drop to a crawl, that's when you're waiting for actual muscle tissue growth to happen.
So would you suggest, if my fat loss takes longer than a year (I don't think it will but I also don't want to have to rush everything) to go ahead and do a bulking phase in order to gain more muscle and strength after the strength gains have slowed or stopped? I know I am thinking long term and maybe I should just focus on the here and now but I enjoy having a game plan. Plus the knowledge is helpful and hopefully something I can one day impart on others.
A few of these guys might have better suggestions, but my opinion would be to just jump in and start losing the fat. Do the body weight routines and start lifting asap to save the muscle. You can reassess as you lose. I think you'll want to drop a decent amount of body fat before you bulk.0 -
arditarose wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »tigersword wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.
Strength and muscle growth are two different things. Most strength gains come from training your nervous system to properly use the muscle you have (it's called "neuromuscular adaptation.") I like to describe it like lifting a box with ropes. You have a crane with 4 ropes. To lift a light box, you might only need a single rope, and the others just hang free. Now, for a heavier box, you go ahead and attach the other 3 ropes to the box, because you need the extra rope to support and lift. You didn't add more rope to the crane, you just used more of the ones that were there.
Muscles work the same way. Untrained means muscle tissue is there, buy maybe your brain is only telling half of that muscle to fire, because it uses less energy and you never need more than that anyway. Then you lift something heavy, and suddenly your brain realizes that it needs to start using more muscle. So it starts telling your body to prep more muscle, waking up nerves, shuttling some glycogen from your liver to the muscle, so next time you lift, it's easier. You didn't add any muscle, you're just making better use of what's there. That's what most strength gains are in the beginning, the first few months to a year. After that, strength gains drop to a crawl, that's when you're waiting for actual muscle tissue growth to happen.
So would you suggest, if my fat loss takes longer than a year (I don't think it will but I also don't want to have to rush everything) to go ahead and do a bulking phase in order to gain more muscle and strength after the strength gains have slowed or stopped? I know I am thinking long term and maybe I should just focus on the here and now but I enjoy having a game plan. Plus the knowledge is helpful and hopefully something I can one day impart on others.
A few of these guys might have better suggestions, but my opinion would be to just jump in and start losing the fat. Do the body weight routines and start lifting asap to save the muscle. You can reassess as you lose. I think you'll want to drop a decent amount of body fat before you bulk.
That was my idea. Because I know that cutting will involve muscle loss again and the further I have to go to get to my ideal, the more muscle I will have lost along the way as well. But I definitely am going to listen to all the advice from the experienced people (including you lol).0 -
candacefausset wrote: »arditarose wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »tigersword wrote: »candacefausset wrote: »So can the muscle you currently have become stronger even if it doesn't get bigger? I don't fully understand the growth of muscle. I lost a lot of strength during a bad stint of depression where I was almost totally inactive for nearly a year. I want to lose fat now because I eventually want to get to a state of bulking and cutting. But I don't want to bulk now and then cut and lose a lot more muscle mass that I spent a hard time working to build. But at the same time, I feel like I can't get any stronger. I haven't started lifting yet because I don't have access to any equipment but I did order a book on body weight workouts. So hopefully that will be here soon and I can keep up with that.
Strength and muscle growth are two different things. Most strength gains come from training your nervous system to properly use the muscle you have (it's called "neuromuscular adaptation.") I like to describe it like lifting a box with ropes. You have a crane with 4 ropes. To lift a light box, you might only need a single rope, and the others just hang free. Now, for a heavier box, you go ahead and attach the other 3 ropes to the box, because you need the extra rope to support and lift. You didn't add more rope to the crane, you just used more of the ones that were there.
Muscles work the same way. Untrained means muscle tissue is there, buy maybe your brain is only telling half of that muscle to fire, because it uses less energy and you never need more than that anyway. Then you lift something heavy, and suddenly your brain realizes that it needs to start using more muscle. So it starts telling your body to prep more muscle, waking up nerves, shuttling some glycogen from your liver to the muscle, so next time you lift, it's easier. You didn't add any muscle, you're just making better use of what's there. That's what most strength gains are in the beginning, the first few months to a year. After that, strength gains drop to a crawl, that's when you're waiting for actual muscle tissue growth to happen.
So would you suggest, if my fat loss takes longer than a year (I don't think it will but I also don't want to have to rush everything) to go ahead and do a bulking phase in order to gain more muscle and strength after the strength gains have slowed or stopped? I know I am thinking long term and maybe I should just focus on the here and now but I enjoy having a game plan. Plus the knowledge is helpful and hopefully something I can one day impart on others.
A few of these guys might have better suggestions, but my opinion would be to just jump in and start losing the fat. Do the body weight routines and start lifting asap to save the muscle. You can reassess as you lose. I think you'll want to drop a decent amount of body fat before you bulk.
That was my idea. Because I know that cutting will involve muscle loss again and the further I have to go to get to my ideal, the more muscle I will have lost along the way as well. But I definitely am going to listen to all the advice from the experienced people (including you lol).
Yeah, these dudes know their stuff. I can only speak from my own experience and little research. I lost weight lifting on a deficit. 25 lbs so far. I am impressed with the results.0
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