Enough volume to gain muscle?
jenglish712
Posts: 497 Member
I have been doing a Sl 5x5 for awhile, but being focused more on the rules only about the last month to 6 weeks. I started lifting at a fair deficit (lost about 20 lbs) and have now increased to about 300 cal over on off days and 400ish on lifting days.
is 3 40-60 minute workouts a week enough strain to be causing muscle growth. I don't mind putting a little fat back on, but I didn't really get quite as lean as I wanted to before feeling like my restricted calories was holding back strength gains. I'm stil lifting pretty light, but it's heavy for me.
I was down to about 148, back up to 155. 5'8" DL 205, squatting 185, Bench 140, press 75 (having the hardest time increasing that) and row 100.
So is this enough strain to encourage muscle growth?
is 3 40-60 minute workouts a week enough strain to be causing muscle growth. I don't mind putting a little fat back on, but I didn't really get quite as lean as I wanted to before feeling like my restricted calories was holding back strength gains. I'm stil lifting pretty light, but it's heavy for me.
I was down to about 148, back up to 155. 5'8" DL 205, squatting 185, Bench 140, press 75 (having the hardest time increasing that) and row 100.
So is this enough strain to encourage muscle growth?
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Replies
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If you're bulking and building muscle mass is your main goal, then it may be advantageous to switch to a hypertrophy based lifting program as opposed to a strength based program like Stronglifts. Stronglifts is good for a beginner to build strength, but as you mention, it's not much volume, and a higher volume hypertrophy program would be a better fit in my opinion.0
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lifting + calorie surplus is muscle growth- the actual numbers and where you are lifting are less relevant.
As long as your are progressive lifting and in a calorie surplus for a few months- you'll have growth.0 -
If you're bulking and building muscle mass is your main goal, then it may be advantageous to switch to a hypertrophy based lifting program as opposed to a strength based program like Stronglifts. Stronglifts is good for a beginner to build strength, but as you mention, it's not much volume, and a higher volume hypertrophy program would be a better fit in my opinion.
I would say strength is more important than mass for me. If I could continue to progress in weight at 1800 calories a day I would have. Maybe I will focus more on mass when I hit my strength goals and lose a little more belly. But I was finding I couldn't get leaner and stronger at the same time. I can't see (for me) focusing on trying to get buff looking when I am not even benching bodyweight yet.0 -
THIS. Volume training for size will usually consist of about 16 sets or more per body part. On average that's 4 sets (or more) for 4 exercises. Reps would also be higher than 5 with about 8-12 reps per set.If you're bulking and building muscle mass is your main goal, then it may be advantageous to switch to a hypertrophy based lifting program as opposed to a strength based program like Stronglifts. Stronglifts is good for a beginner to build strength, but as you mention, it's not much volume, and a higher volume hypertrophy program would be a better fit in my opinion.
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If gaining muscle isn't your goal, then that's fine.jenglish712 wrote: »If you're bulking and building muscle mass is your main goal, then it may be advantageous to switch to a hypertrophy based lifting program as opposed to a strength based program like Stronglifts. Stronglifts is good for a beginner to build strength, but as you mention, it's not much volume, and a higher volume hypertrophy program would be a better fit in my opinion.
I would say strength is more important than mass for me. If I could continue to progress in weight at 1800 calories a day I would have. Maybe I will focus more on mass when I hit my strength goals and lose a little more belly. But I was finding I couldn't get leaner and stronger at the same time. I can't see (for me) focusing on trying to get buff looking when I am not even benching bodyweight yet.
If it's strength you're just looking for, then you just progressively increase the weight resistance on your current workout program.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I guess I should rephrase it. I am not really eating more to gain weight, but because I need to to increase weight lifted... which eating at surplus leads to weight gain. Of the weight I gain between now and say march, is the amount I am lifting dictating that it will be more muscle than fat, or am I just getting fatter and stronger?0
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You DON'T have to increase weight to get stronger. You work more on your technique, strength and power.jenglish712 wrote: »I guess I should rephrase it. I am not really eating more to gain weight, but because I need to to increase weight lifted... which eating at surplus leads to weight gain. Of the weight I gain between now and say march, is the amount I am lifting dictating that it will be more muscle than fat, or am I just getting fatter and stronger?
Competitive lifters DON'T increase their weight, but stay the same weight to stay in their class. They work on getting stronger, not heavier.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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So you are saying I can increase my power gains at the same rate eating at maintenance or deficit? I understand that power is more neuro-adaptation than muscle growth, but it seems like most relative novices still have some muscle growth while increasing power. I am not a competitive lifter by any stretch of the imagination.0
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jenglish712 wrote: »So you are saying I can increase my power gains at the same rate eating at maintenance or deficit? I understand that power is more neuro-adaptation than muscle growth, but it seems like most relative novices still have some muscle growth while increasing power. I am not a competitive lifter by any stretch of the imagination.
Presuming you are new to lifting you will still experience some modest muscle gain even while in a deficit or at maintenance and working outside of the recommended rep range for hypertrophy (it's more useful to consider this a spectrum / continuum rather than discrete boundaries - so even if you are working in a hypertrophy range you may still experience some neuromuscular adaptation etc.)
Periodising your training into blocks is a good plan though.
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Absolutely. Many times people actually underestimate how much weight they can actually move. I had a very fit female who never lifted more than 25lbs at any one time (squats included) and then we started training together. She now can do 50lbs with one arm rows which is excellent at her size (5'6" at 130lbs).jenglish712 wrote: »So you are saying I can increase my power gains at the same rate eating at maintenance or deficit? I understand that power is more neuro-adaptation than muscle growth, but it seems like most relative novices still have some muscle growth while increasing power. I am not a competitive lifter by any stretch of the imagination.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
jenglish712 wrote: »I guess I should rephrase it. I am not really eating more to gain weight, but because I need to to increase weight lifted... which eating at surplus leads to weight gain. Of the weight I gain between now and say march, is the amount I am lifting dictating that it will be more muscle than fat, or am I just getting fatter and stronger?
CNS strength gains0 -
jenglish712 wrote: »So you are saying I can increase my power gains at the same rate eating at maintenance or deficit? I understand that power is more neuro-adaptation than muscle growth, but it seems like most relative novices still have some muscle growth while increasing power. I am not a competitive lifter by any stretch of the imagination.
Presuming you are new to lifting you will still experience some modest muscle gain even while in a deficit or at maintenance and working outside of the recommended rep range for hypertrophy (it's more useful to consider this a spectrum / continuum rather than discrete boundaries - so even if you are working in a hypertrophy range you may still experience some neuromuscular adaptation etc.)
Periodising your training into blocks is a good plan though.
And I have seen some degree of growth/definition change in the chest and arms. I have seen some posit that the 5x5 scheme has the advantage of being a bit farther on the hypertrophy spectrum than SS. I am not saying I am vehemently against some muscle growth, just that it is secondary to strenght.
I am thinking that my priorities until about begining of March will be Strength, Muscle Growth, Fat gain minimization, then go to Muscle preservation and Fat loss until I get in the 10-12% bodyfat range. Then manybe I will look at a more hypertrophy focused regimen.
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How long is a while? If you're still making gains on SL, great. If not, what about an intermediate programme - I like wendlers 5/3/1 (I didn't even start making progress on OHP till I started wendlers), there are others, of course.
Edit: I'd say it's mainly a strength programme, with a bit of hypertrophy thrown in (assistance work).0 -
It's hard to say exactly how long because initially I was at a gym with only a Smith and machines. So I have only been doing freeweights about 8 weeks or less. At this point I have not deloaded a weight from failing 3 workouts in a row (though I deloaded on squats once due to joint pain). There is a good chance that will change tomorrow when I make my third attempt at OHP. I will stick with the program through at least making gains on 3x5. But I hadn't heard of Wendler's 5/3/1 so I will look into that one for when I stop making gains. Thanks.
Edit:
In reviewing my limited journaling (from before I used the SL app) I switched gyms and started using freeweights on Nov 3. I had tried a variant with Dumbells in June, switched to the Smith in July and used it until the end of Oct. So when I started using freeweights I did not start with an empty bar.
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^ you've probably still got a bit of mileage left in SL in that case. Like you say, you can always drop to 3x5 if you stall out.
Also, if the increase in calories is a new thing you're going to notice a good difference in strength. Good luck with it all 0 -
Yep! Gonna stick with this program until I hit the wall at 3x5. I will probably still use some variant of it as far as the exercises in spring when I go to dig more of the fat out of the muscle.
And I didn't have to deload today!!!0 -
Given your goals I would stick with SL until you start having progression issues then address those issues per SL recommendations (deloading, moving to 3x5, etc).
From there when you stall out repeatedly, move to Texas Method or MadCows.
As far as energy intake goes yeah you can make strength gains eating in a deficit or maintenance but you'll have an easier time gaining strength when in a calorie surplus. You'll just need to weigh that out against your body composition goals because obviously at some point continual body weight gain will make you fat enough that you'll no longer want to keep doing that despite it's contributions to strength.
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Given your goals I would stick with SL until you start having progression issues then address those issues per SL recommendations (deloading, moving to 3x5, etc).
From there when you stall out repeatedly, move to Texas Method or MadCows.
As far as energy intake goes yeah you can make strength gains eating in a deficit or maintenance but you'll have an easier time gaining strength when in a calorie surplus. You'll just need to weigh that out against your body composition goals because obviously at some point continual body weight gain will make you fat enough that you'll no longer want to keep doing that despite it's contributions to strength.
Is there a specific bf% to call it quits on? I have a date and a maximum body weight in mind, but they are both rather arbitrarily picked. I have seen some propose never to go over 20%, although I am not sure how I would know if I had.0 -
Well, the bulk is over and I certainly got stronger during it. Now I will peel off some fat and see if there is any more muscle under there.
Had fun gaining and there was significantly less derp in this subforum!0 -
jenglish712 wrote: »I have been doing a Sl 5x5 for awhile, but being focused more on the rules only about the last month to 6 weeks. I started lifting at a fair deficit (lost about 20 lbs) and have now increased to about 300 cal over on off days and 400ish on lifting days.
is 3 40-60 minute workouts a week enough strain to be causing muscle growth. I don't mind putting a little fat back on, but I didn't really get quite as lean as I wanted to before feeling like my restricted calories was holding back strength gains. I'm stil lifting pretty light, but it's heavy for me.
I was down to about 148, back up to 155. 5'8" DL 205, squatting 185, Bench 140, press 75 (having the hardest time increasing that) and row 100.
So is this enough strain to encourage muscle growth?
If building muscle mass is what your trying to achieve then you need to be doing 2 things. Eating in a surplus which is what your doing, and focusing on high volume. 5x5 is not considered high volume. 4 sets 12-15 reps of moderate weight 3 exercises per muscle group to get u started. U notice lagging muscles a few months later then you can add more. Higher reps for growth (hypertrophy). Your trying to destroy as many muscle fibers as possible. Lower reps are considered strength training. Genetics also have a role to play. Everyone is different. Depends if you have fast or slow twitch muscle fiber genes0 -
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Well either way is a bit of a moot point to debate afterwards
Maybe after I hit about 10% bodyfat I will look again at increasing muscle. Right now I am just looking to not lose any.0 -
Have to disagree with that there. You're going into a 15 range then you're venturing into endurance training.allenbrowning wrote: »jenglish712 wrote: »I have been doing a Sl 5x5 for awhile, but being focused more on the rules only about the last month to 6 weeks. I started lifting at a fair deficit (lost about 20 lbs) and have now increased to about 300 cal over on off days and 400ish on lifting days.
is 3 40-60 minute workouts a week enough strain to be causing muscle growth. I don't mind putting a little fat back on, but I didn't really get quite as lean as I wanted to before feeling like my restricted calories was holding back strength gains. I'm stil lifting pretty light, but it's heavy for me.
I was down to about 148, back up to 155. 5'8" DL 205, squatting 185, Bench 140, press 75 (having the hardest time increasing that) and row 100.
So is this enough strain to encourage muscle growth?
If building muscle mass is what your trying to achieve then you need to be doing 2 things. Eating in a surplus which is what your doing, and focusing on high volume. 5x5 is not considered high volume. 4 sets 12-15 reps of moderate weight 3 exercises per muscle group to get u started. U notice lagging muscles a few months later then you can add more. Higher reps for growth (hypertrophy). Your trying to destroy as many muscle fibers as possible. Lower reps are considered strength training. Genetics also have a role to play. Everyone is different. Depends if you have fast or slow twitch muscle fiber genes
There is nothing wrong with being in an 8-12 range to promote hypertrophy but that does not mean that when won't see muscle grown in the power range. I highly disagree that it's necessary to be in a high range during a bulk.
Compound movements 5x5
Accessory muscles 3x8-12
Or if you fancy periodization training.
Also, muscle fiber genetics? We all have both fibers and they can be altered through the proper training. We are not limited to one thing.
I understand your point. Forgive my vagueness. I didn't mean that we only have one type of muscle fiber gene. But our bodies, depending on our genetics respond better to certain weight training types depending on fast/slow fibers.
Point being you'll destroy more muscle fibers in the high rep rang low rest period type training. 5x5 are great for compound movements, for overall strength and beginners should always start here. Hypertrophy should be focused with volume.
Nevertheless it comes down to the individual. What works well for one may not work exactly for another0 -
allenbrowning wrote: »
Have to disagree with that there. You're going into a 15 range then you're venturing into endurance training.allenbrowning wrote: »jenglish712 wrote: »I have been doing a Sl 5x5 for awhile, but being focused more on the rules only about the last month to 6 weeks. I started lifting at a fair deficit (lost about 20 lbs) and have now increased to about 300 cal over on off days and 400ish on lifting days.
is 3 40-60 minute workouts a week enough strain to be causing muscle growth. I don't mind putting a little fat back on, but I didn't really get quite as lean as I wanted to before feeling like my restricted calories was holding back strength gains. I'm stil lifting pretty light, but it's heavy for me.
I was down to about 148, back up to 155. 5'8" DL 205, squatting 185, Bench 140, press 75 (having the hardest time increasing that) and row 100.
So is this enough strain to encourage muscle growth?
If building muscle mass is what your trying to achieve then you need to be doing 2 things. Eating in a surplus which is what your doing, and focusing on high volume. 5x5 is not considered high volume. 4 sets 12-15 reps of moderate weight 3 exercises per muscle group to get u started. U notice lagging muscles a few months later then you can add more. Higher reps for growth (hypertrophy). Your trying to destroy as many muscle fibers as possible. Lower reps are considered strength training. Genetics also have a role to play. Everyone is different. Depends if you have fast or slow twitch muscle fiber genes
There is nothing wrong with being in an 8-12 range to promote hypertrophy but that does not mean that when won't see muscle grown in the power range. I highly disagree that it's necessary to be in a high range during a bulk.
Compound movements 5x5
Accessory muscles 3x8-12
Or if you fancy periodization training.
Also, muscle fiber genetics? We all have both fibers and they can be altered through the proper training. We are not limited to one thing.
I understand your point. Forgive my vagueness. I didn't mean that we only have one type of muscle fiber gene. But our bodies, depending on our genetics respond better to certain weight training types depending on fast/slow fibers.
Point being you'll destroy more muscle fibers in the high rep rang low rest period type training. 5x5 are great for compound movements, for overall strength and beginners should always start here. Hypertrophy should be focused with volume.
Nevertheless it comes down to the individual. What works well for one may not work exactly for another
No, that is not what science says. Read these:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22106173
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19001042
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/124362700
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