Guys, stop with the orthorexia already!
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"Gluten free" is only getting out of hand in terms of the number of people who don't have Celiac. For those of us that do... I appreciate products getting smacked with all of those GF labels.
Now if only I could get restaurants to take me seriously instead of laughing me off as just another fad dieter...0 -
Except for the enamel on their teeth, which is eaten away by the acids.I see a lot of the apple cider vinegar with the cinnamon, lemon and whatever else is in it thing, people on my facebook are doing. Then when you tell them that doesn't work because it won't burn fat they tell you, "well I'm trying it anyway it cant' hurt"
http://jdr.sagepub.com/content/70/6/942.shortThere was considerable risk of erosion when citrus fruits were eaten more than twice a day, soft drinks were drunk daily, apple vinegar was ingested weekly, or sport drinks were drunk weekly.
The only benefit I've been able to find to drinking vinegar is this bit of research, which says that:
Vinegar Improves Insulin Sensitivity to a High-Carbohydrate Meal in Subjects With Insulin Resistance or Type 2 Diabetes
(that's the title of the research)
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/1/281.long0 -
I know it is a problem for people that actually have Celiac, but you have to keep in mind that there is a plethora of people with all sorts of eating restrictions that will pass it off for allergies. New Years Eve I had a table of six where 3 of them said they were very allergic to onions and I told the waiter that unfortunately I couldn't guarantee any cross contamination and suggested just having dessert and even then I mentioned cross contamination....... the waiter came back and said, don't worry as long as they don't see any onions they should be alright. This causes all sorts of problems for people that are actually allergic to one thing or another and I must take all inquiries seriously, so I suspect you are taken seriously except in the kitchen we know through experience that most are nothing more than eating irregularities."Gluten free" is only getting out of hand in terms of the number of people who don't have Celiac. For those of us that do... I appreciate getting smacked in the face with all of those GF labels.
Now if only I could get restaurants to take me seriously instead of laughing me off as just another fad dieter...
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
But you don't panic if you have to guess at some calories, do you? You don't blindly avoid situations in which you don't know exact calorie counts of your food because otherwise you have a sense of terror, right? Because that would be orthorexia, not just counting calories.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
I know this point has been picked on in this thread, but I agree with you somewhat on that. There are tons of people on this forum who simply ate whatever they want, got overweight, and now have success with weight management by counting calories and realizing their calorie needs. I feel confident that a lot of the people I know IRL don't eat like this at all (especially those who are overweight).Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society. It is not exactly psychologically normal to count calories for a lifetime, yet that is what many will have to do to keep it off long-term.
However, I do also know people who have never really had to worry about their weight but don't count calories. These people don't regularly indulge in very high calorie foods or eat out at fast food/restaurants much, though.
Thank you
Yeah, I mean, just eating "naturally" in a context of overabundance and underactivity = 66% overweight & obese people. Social policy, regulation, even changes to city design etc., are ways of changing the context a little. 0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.SnuggleSmacks wrote: »This. I don't understand the mentality that makes one think that not being able to eat something due to some real or imaginary sensitivity makes one special. It's seriously bizarre. AND THEN to assume everyone around you constantly wants to hear about it. It's maddening.
It's a cultural proxy-war and all about tribal identification, I think. Super annoying and inane, but these things always are.
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This was me about a year and a half ago. Totally anti gluten. I could go on and on about the dangers... all the while popping my Phentermine pills. Lol! Super healthy! Now all foods are in my life in moderate amounts.0
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Someone I work with just paid someone 200 bucks to cut out all her sugar and all her carbs. Can't have any fruit of any kind, not even one gram and telling her she has to eat every 2 hours. I tried telling her it is literally calories in vs out and you can eat when you want to. She hates it and cried the first day0
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herrspoons wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society. It is not exactly psychologically normal to count calories for a lifetime, yet that is what many will have to do to keep it off long-term.
It's an adjustment related to disorder, yes, except it's society that's disordered.
("Our" society = English-speaking countries, like the ones MFP users belong to, and some others.)
Explain please. Weight control is the obligation of the individual, not society. In addition, if there's a body image Western society promotes, it sure isn't a fat one. Quite the reverse actually.
Percent of adults age 20 years and over who are overweight, including obesity: 69.0% (2011-2012)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/obesity-overweight.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/obesity_adult_09_10/obesity_adult_09_10.htm#x2013;1962 Through 2009–2010 </a>
Charts over time, since 1968 - sharpest rise is in obesity, #s overweight mostly steady
There's no way all of them decided, individually, to have too many cheeseburgers. But it's UP to the individual to fix it, yeah. At least it is until food manufacturers have to start facing some appropriate regulation, which I hope happens
Unfortunately, it was precisely because they all decided to have too many cheeseburgers or pizzas or donuts. The food may have been more available and come in bigger portions, but we still had to eat it.
Also, in the UK it has been a legal requirement for some years now for all packaged food to show calorie and nutritional content clearly on the packaging. It has not made any people any thinner. In fact, obesity rates have risen.
It's not the food manufacturers. It's us. There are some other factors, but those are more to do with the outdated and averaged calorie requirements used, poor advice from health agencies, and falling activity levels.
Bolded is one spin on things, it's a question of emphasis. Ordinary participation in society means working 8-10 hours a day, dealing with long commutes, being tired from all that and so struggling to negotiate food choices when tasty, convenient meals are hard to pass up. It's a lot of work to cook and eat well, it takes knowledge and planning and effort. That's why MFP exists. You can see how hard it is for people.
Only the individual can answer to her or his own body most directly, but there are multiple factors. I think it's good to change some of them if it helps people
What I mean is, yes people are choosing cheeseburgers, but in what context, and why?
Where this argument falls short is that it is not a lot of work to eat within your calorie allowance. You can get convenience meals that will fit the bill at fast food places and at grocery stores, at least you can in the US.
Calories are posted at many of these places, so information on intake is available.
But still, people tend to pick what they like. And what they like is generally more calories than they should be eating.
Personally, I don't think most people ever think about how many calories they should be getting per day. So, the calorie information posted is mostly wasted.
It seems like there's two extremes for the general public. It's either no thought at all into calorie allowance, or it's 'I can only eat 1200 cals because someone told me so' - again with no thought as to the individual's activity level, size, etc.
Just quoting to say that my older neighbour (like, 60s?) once remarked in conversation with my mother that 1000 calories is a lot of food. She's also definitely larger. So yeah, unless people are specifically tracking calories, they probably don't even know what calories are or what a typical day's worth of food for them equates in calories. I never even looked at nutritional info when I was "eating clean." Just at ingredients, mainly if it had more than 2 ingredients I questioned if I could eat it.0 -
i got pissy when my dad made supper and cooked the turkey with stock and oil. I was like OMG HOW DO I LOG THIS and almost didn't eat it. I've since learned to just go wtih the flow and eat things, logging as closely as I can, if I didn't make it myself. Or just not tracking because who cares for one day?diannethegeek wrote: »jennifershoo wrote: »Totally agree! I was borderline orthorexic (not sure if it's a word) at one point. I had a meltdown over a non-organic avocado.
It's not a way to live.
I reached a similar point during my weight loss. I broke into tears because the burger joint my family had picked for dinner was out of quinoa burgers. I'd worked so hard to budget dinner with my family into my calories and couldn't deal when I needed to make changes. Not a happy, fun place to be and I hate to see anyone else head down that road.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.0 -
I eat GF, have for 5 years now, but not for weight loss or fad purposes. When I eat it I react physically enough that it easily interferes with my daily life. But I'm definitely not going to omit the GF pre-made or homemade alternatives, because they are delicioius foods that I want to eat forever lol. BUT I've never actually talked about it all over social media and with friends unless explicitly asked a question about it. Like my one friend asked me a few times for advice or brand recs when she needed to make some GF things for like.. a scouts meeting or something where a child had Celiacs. Other than that I pretty much never discuss it. There's no reason to just randomly talk about it unprompted. Like my one friend who is very religious and her entire feed is about tea (she sells it............... ugh) and Jesus. WHY you gotta do that?SnuggleSmacks wrote: »bigblondewolf wrote: »Back to the OP, the gluten free fad is so annoying! I look up recipes and they're all inexplicably GF... Have an option, maybe, but if you really were intolerant to gluten you'd KNOW all the baking/cooking substitutes. Like I know lots of vegan baking substitutes etc
It's not about knowing the options, because if you have an allergy you generally know what to avoid in terms of recipes and whole raw foods you can buy. It's more about the packaged goods you can buy in stores.
I certainly hope the extra gluten-free labeling in stores doesn't go away. As annoying and fad-like as it may seem to you, it's been a blessing being able to actually know that the spice mixes or canned soup I'm buying won't cause my body to shred holes in my intestines...
Seriously. I have a friend who recently "discovered" she is "gluten sensitive" and she's posted about nothing else for weeks on Facebook. One of the most frequent subjects is gluten-free pastas and breads and how hard they are to find, how expensive they are, and how bad they taste.
You know what's gluten free, and a lot less expensive? Meat and veggies. Why not just eat meat and veggies? When I went low-carb for a while, I didn't go out and buy low-carb bread. I just stopped eating bread. How hard is it, really?
So when people get preachy about the evils of x food, it annoys the hell out of me.
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Let people do what they want? You can't make a person choose logic over ignorance.0
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SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
But you don't panic if you have to guess at some calories, do you? You don't blindly avoid situations in which you don't know exact calorie counts of your food because otherwise you have a sense of terror, right? Because that would be orthorexia, not just counting calories.
Yup, this.0 -
feisty_bucket wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.SnuggleSmacks wrote: »This. I don't understand the mentality that makes one think that not being able to eat something due to some real or imaginary sensitivity makes one special. It's seriously bizarre. AND THEN to assume everyone around you constantly wants to hear about it. It's maddening.
It's a cultural proxy-war and all about tribal identification, I think. Super annoying and inane, but these things always are.
Good point. I think that's right.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.0 -
Weighing every morsel you eat, & counting macros isn't normal. Spending significant mental and emotional energy on working out how to fit it into social life isn't normal, either. Most people just have cake and don't count how much. (That's why they're often overweight.) It causes interruptions to normal* life and I think it's strange to not admit that.
normal as in, having the quality of conforming to social norms0 -
It's useful, obviously, and necessary for a lot of people - research suggests, most people who lose weight need to count calories for life to keep it off. It's better than risking the illness of obesity, for sure. It's easier to do with time. But it's not "normal", at all.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
Again, this really isn't relevant, as no one said the issue with orthorexia (which could well take a calorie counting form) is that it's odd. The more common (trendy) forms of following a special diet aren't orthorexia.
I strongly disagree with your consistent reading of the MFP forums as showing that people have tremendous trouble with calorie counting, in any event. That seems to be what you want to see, but people who are actually motivated to lose weight and for whom it's a personality fit seem to find it liberating or educational, even if they only choose to do it for a time. Many others don't seem like they are ready under any system. And still others choose one of the many alternatives (as I did once in the past).
You seem to want to push the position that losing weight or not becoming overweight is tremendously hard and prevented by social forces. Not sure why, but I disagree. Many people have a biological tendency that means they have to be careful to avoid gaining when social or scarcity related restrictions aren't present, but that doesn't mean that society is making us overweight. In a way it's a result of a positive thing--that food is easily available.0 -
theoryofempire wrote: »I'm gluten free due to a medical diagnosis (celiac). I actually roll my eyes at the people who rant and rave about gluten free diets. A sugary gluten free cupcake is no healthier than a sugary regular cupcake. And honestly, a lot of the gluten free prepackaged stuff is a shhhhht storm of chemicals.
People who follow fads will always follow them. In a few years, drinking beer instead of water will be better for you, and the mass majority will not question it.
Not my body, not my problem lol
Actually in the past drinking beer was better for you than drinking water because the beer is boiled in the process of manufacture thus killing the bacteria.
It's not so much the boiling of the wort that keeps beer safe - its the yeast activity during fermentation. The overwhelming yeast population that crowds out all other life forms. After fermentation, the ph, hops, and alcohol keep it fairly sterile. Some bacteria like acetobacter (used in lambics) grow nicely in beer, but almost nothing harmful to humans can.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
While I agree that tracking calories consciously and consistently is not the "norm" performed by the majority of people, it is not so abnormal as to be even noteworthy. Those who count calories are not some obsessive outlier minority, we are a significant percentage of the population.
But regarding the part in bold: Just no. Calorie counting is not complex, and for the majority, it does not involve complex emotional reactions or pragmatic difficulties. There are some people in a minority who have these issues, but this is not the norm. For most of us, logging calories, or being in a situation where calories cannot be accurately logged, is not a crisis. We don't panic over it. We just log what we can and move on.
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Weighing every morsel you eat, & counting macros isn't normal. Spending significant mental and emotional energy on working out how to fit it into social life isn't normal, either. Most people just have cake and don't count how much. (That's why they're often overweight.) It causes interruptions to normal* life and I think it's strange to not admit that.
normal as in, having the quality of conforming to social norms
I spend 0 time figuring out how to work my tracking into social life. This is what guesstimating or just taking a night off is all about. Or pre-logging if going out to a restaurant. I just do it, much like how people who don't struggle with weight just automatically eat portion sizes that will allow them to maintain their weight without them even actively thinking about it.0 -
Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.0
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Weighing every morsel you eat, & counting macros isn't normal. Spending significant mental and emotional energy on working out how to fit it into social life isn't normal, either. Most people just have cake and don't count how much. (That's why they're often overweight.) It causes interruptions to normal* life and I think it's strange to not admit that.
normal as in, having the quality of conforming to social norms
If this is your experience, then perhaps you have some of these mental issues that you seem to be projecting on the rest of us? I can only speak for myself, and the majority of people I've interacted with on this forum and on this site...we don't take calorie or macro counting so seriously that it requires anything resembling effort or angst.
Personally, if I'm offered cake, I still have cake if I want it. I'm pickier these days about what cake I consider worthy of spending my calories, and I might take a smaller slice than I would have 10 years ago, but being offered a piece of cake is not a crisis situation.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.
Have you read the forums here? Like are you people kidding?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
I didn't claim it was? I clearly distinguished between the two.
Yup, it is a hassle. Why is it a hassle? Because the tendency is for people to gain weight in the culture and systems in which we now live. This is a new thing. Historically, it wasn't the case. It is a result of social and economic changes. I really don't know how it's possible to argue otherwise, outside of willful blindness.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.
Have you read the forums here? Like are you people kidding?
Um...I've posted over 3,000 times, but no, I never read the forums
I don't see people counting calories for years and agonizing over going to a restaurant or dinner at a friend's house. I don't see people counting calories for a while and spending a great deal of time puzzling over how to put together meals that fit their macros. I don't see people counting calories for years and freaking out because they went over one day.
I do see posts from a few individuals who are new to the process and struggling with how to go about counting things at restaurants and friends' houses, or asking questions, or expressing a bit of frustration or even panic because they went over, and they don't yet know what that means for the long term.
If you've been doing this for a long time and you're having these issues, then you might want to talk to a professional.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
Again, this really isn't relevant, as no one said the issue with orthorexia (which could well take a calorie counting form) is that it's odd. The more common (trendy) forms of following a special diet aren't orthorexia.
I'm saying that calorie counting is odd, and further that its oddness involves significant and difficult psychological adjustment, which involves tension with social norms.0 -
To the posters re: it's absurd to be concerned about people who are just "trying to eat healthy:"
As I mentioned in the last orthorexia thread, people who are out to eat "better" as defined by them are not what orthorexia is. It isn't the people who bring the bowl of fruit or tray of veggies to a party. It is the people who become paralyzed with fear at the thought of an uncontrollable food setting. It is the people who cut themselves off from their normal social lives because the concern of the "cleanliness" of food has taken over many of their thoughts. And yes, it is very much less about the food than psychology behind it, but this is how it manifests.
Trying to eat "healthier" is no more orthorexia than a random day of sadness is clinical depression and I think this often gets lost in translation.
^THIS. I agree 100%.
People choosing not to eat certain foods because they feel it is healthier is not orthorexia. Even if you don't think they are right or agree with their choices, there is nothing dysfunctional in their behavior. It is only orthoexia if it keeps them from going out, having a social life, or they panic or have some kind of melt down if they can't have exactly what they want or don't know exactly how many calories it is.
Very few people have this.
Btw, the same kind of dysfunction and obsessive behavior can happen with calorie counting. I have seen MANY threads on here where people freak out because they have to go to a restaurant without calorie information. Some really DO panic. Or they get really stressed if invited to someone's home for dinner. I have seen many where people's relationships are suffering because their spouse/friends don't "support" their efforts adequately, or they get angry because other people bring food to work. I have seen people use the word "sabotage" to describe their spouse not dieting with them. This all seems irrational to me, whether they follow iifym, Paleo or any other diet philosophy.
I have also seen countless threads on people researching how many calories simple everyday activities like dusting their coffee table burn (okay, I admit the coffee table example was made up...but you get my point). To worry about whether no stick cooking spray is still zero calories if you spray for 2 seconds instead of one does not seem "normal" to me. A little more perspective would be good.
My point is anything can be taken to extremes and obsessed over.
Now, I am not attacking calorie counters. I am doing it right now to some degree myself...though more to experiment to find the macros that work best for me. It works very well for many people. And not well for others. Just like any other eating philosophy. The vast majority of calorie counters are NOT any more orthoexic than the majority of paleo diet followers, non-sugar eaters, non-fried foods eaters, gluten free people without Celiacs, or anything else someone doesn't agree with....meaning not at all!!!
For the vast majority of human history the vast majority of people maintained a healthy weight without calorie counting. So to act like doing that is 100% normal and even ideal but deciding you don't want to eat any junk food is somehow a sickness just seems a little ridiculous, not to mention hypocritical.
Different beliefs about what is healthy and different diet preferences are in themselves not a problem. People should just eat how they like and quit trying to make it an us vs. them situation. It's just food, people. Relax and enjoy it...whatever it is.
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