Anyone seen this article on obesity?
emdeesea
Posts: 1,823 Member
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-eat-less-more-obesity-20150212-story.html
Basically suggests that if you're obese, you're doomed to failure forever and ever because your body will do anything to gain back that fat that it's lost.
I'm somewhat skeptical but would like to hear what anyone else has to say.
Basically suggests that if you're obese, you're doomed to failure forever and ever because your body will do anything to gain back that fat that it's lost.
I'm somewhat skeptical but would like to hear what anyone else has to say.
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Urg. That article is dangerous. It's just a big excuse for people to not even try.0
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I can agree that if knowing how to lose weight and being motivated were all it took, we wouldn't see the kind of obesity numbers that we do. Objectively, just telling people that it's all about personal responsibility isn't effective either. And even it were all about personal choices, I don't think there's harm in taking a closer look at how we can help people change their choices--you know, apart from just telling someone they don't want it enough.
Some people do come back and say some variation of "thanks for the slap in the face. That's what I needed!", but just from my own anecdotal observations, those people are the minority.
I've lost 60lbs and kept it off for...4ish years now? I still have more to go. I think what helped me most was finding new and different ways to keep the negative energy balance going. I never really did crash dieting, but I will routinely change up how I look at my intake and exercise so that it's new and different...and thus interesting for me. Ironically, finding that one thing that works seems to ultimately be unsuccessful over time, for me.0 -
I have read a number of articles on this, and I think it is true that once you are obese, it is harder to maintain at a thinner weight. However, this doesn't mean it is impossible. I liked the line "obesity in remission." It shouldn't be an excuse not to try to lose weight.0
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herrspoons wrote: »Here's a link to the abstract. Note the use of weasel words like 'may'. Question that if homeostasis happens after extended period of obesity then perhaps the same effect can happen after a few years of being slim.
Stay fat and use excuses or get busy living.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(15)00009-1/abstract
That abstract is strange! Seems to me the author is VERY pro weight loss surgery and considers it the only way to assure permanent weight loss.
I got a charge out of his choice of words to describe reaching goal weight through behavioral changes:
"Thus, we
suggest that few individuals ever truly recover from
obesity; individuals who formerly had obesity but are able
to re-attain a healthy bodyweight via diet and exercise
still have ‘obesity in remission’..."
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Don't we accept this with other incurable life-long conditions like diabetes? How is this different?0
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I have always thought that some people's weight gain is due to how they handle their stress. You get stressed out - you eat. You might lose the weight, but it you don't change how you respond to stress, you'll gain it back.0
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I rolled my eyes at "obesity in remission". I have read a few articles about this. I refuse to accept any excuse. My body must not hae gotten the memo that it is supposed to be trying to get fat again.0
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We are hearing more and more of these kinds of things.
Weight loss does indeed come down to the end point of eating less than you burn. There are many examples of users on this forum who thought they would never lose the weight after years of trying, until they actually figured out how to do it right. Denying this fact, or telling people that it's "too hard", is doing a disservice.
But many people don't get how to do it right. It's hard. If food were a prescription drug and all you had to do was lower the dosage, it would be easy. But food is pervasive: it's a comfort, a crutch, a pleasure, an integral part of our lives and our cultures.
Look at all the time and energy we as a society have devoted to this: endlessly revised nutrition guidelines, school lunch arguments, physical education arguments, whole industries devoted to weight loss. What do we have to show for it? Many overweight people.
I agree that new strategies are needed. I disagree with the tone of the LAT article that telling the truth is counterproductive.
That said, I like the phrase "obesity in remission." I feel like that describes my plight pretty well. Fat Jruzer is always trying to come out and I'm always having to fight him. It's slowly getting easier, but I know it will be a battle for a lifetime.
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I can agree that if knowing how to lose weight and being motivated were all it took, we wouldn't see the kind of obesity numbers that we do. Objectively, just telling people that it's all about personal responsibility isn't effective either. And even it were all about personal choices, I don't think there's harm in taking a closer look at how we can help people change their choices--you know, apart from just telling someone they don't want it enough.
Some people do come back and say some variation of "thanks for the slap in the face. That's what I needed!", but just from my own anecdotal observations, those people are the minority.
I've lost 60lbs and kept it off for...4ish years now? I still have more to go. I think what helped me most was finding new and different ways to keep the negative energy balance going. I never really did crash dieting, but I will routinely change up how I look at my intake and exercise so that it's new and different...and thus interesting for me. Ironically, finding that one thing that works seems to ultimately be unsuccessful over time, for me.
I think a lot of the problems in general, come down to people not knowing how to cook, actually cooking, not taking something from a box to a pan, or following those magical "3 ingredients" recipes. People are quick to tell someone what to do or that they're wrong, but rarely do they bother to ask if someone knows HOW to change what they're doing. You can tell someone they need to increase protein or focus on more vegetables to be able to eat more, but it doesn't really help them if they don't know how to get protein outside of a drive through or a Lean Cuisine, and have spent an entire life counting frozen corn as their main vegetable.0 -
+2I can agree that if knowing how to lose weight and being motivated were all it took, we wouldn't see the kind of obesity numbers that we do. Objectively, just telling people that it's all about personal responsibility isn't effective either. And even it were all about personal choices, I don't think there's harm in taking a closer look at how we can help people change their choices--you know, apart from just telling someone they don't want it enough.
Some people do come back and say some variation of "thanks for the slap in the face. That's what I needed!", but just from my own anecdotal observations, those people are the minority.
I've lost 60lbs and kept it off for...4ish years now? I still have more to go. I think what helped me most was finding new and different ways to keep the negative energy balance going. I never really did crash dieting, but I will routinely change up how I look at my intake and exercise so that it's new and different...and thus interesting for me. Ironically, finding that one thing that works seems to ultimately be unsuccessful over time, for me.
Thanks for saying that. Perhaps change must become the new habit.
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There has been a lot of articles about it. I wish I could say that it's BS, but heck, the fact alone that I've been so much hungrier since I got so close to my goal weight is stopping me from calling it BS. Ultimately it probably comes down to willpower, IMO, which is why so many people fail.0
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I can agree that if knowing how to lose weight and being motivated were all it took, we wouldn't see the kind of obesity numbers that we do. Objectively, just telling people that it's all about personal responsibility isn't effective either. And even it were all about personal choices, I don't think there's harm in taking a closer look at how we can help people change their choices--you know, apart from just telling someone they don't want it enough.
Some people do come back and say some variation of "thanks for the slap in the face. That's what I needed!", but just from my own anecdotal observations, those people are the minority.
I've lost 60lbs and kept it off for...4ish years now? I still have more to go. I think what helped me most was finding new and different ways to keep the negative energy balance going. I never really did crash dieting, but I will routinely change up how I look at my intake and exercise so that it's new and different...and thus interesting for me. Ironically, finding that one thing that works seems to ultimately be unsuccessful over time, for me.
I think a lot of the problems in general, come down to people not knowing how to cook, actually cooking, not taking something from a box to a pan, or following those magical "3 ingredients" recipes. People are quick to tell someone what to do or that they're wrong, but rarely do they bother to ask if someone knows HOW to change what they're doing. You can tell someone they need to increase protein or focus on more vegetables to be able to eat more, but it doesn't really help them if they don't know how to get protein outside of a drive through or a Lean Cuisine, and have spent an entire life counting frozen corn as their main vegetable.
What you're presenting is an issue of "food quality" and its effects on weight loss. I have my own views on that. It would suffice to say that I'm less inclined to care about my food coming out of a box (or not) than others.
I can only really speak for myself. I know how to cook. I'm pretty good at it. Much of the time, I simply don't want to cook. I've lost quite a bit of weight eating out of drive-throughs and boxes. Some people have trouble moderating their intake in those instances. Everyone's mileage varies.
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There's a difference between not knowing how to cook and choosing not to cook. You know what you're doing and make choices based on that knowledge. For someone who has no idea where to start, things that seem stupid simple to someone who can cook seem like a mystery to them. It's not a quality issue, it's an education issue.I can agree that if knowing how to lose weight and being motivated were all it took, we wouldn't see the kind of obesity numbers that we do. Objectively, just telling people that it's all about personal responsibility isn't effective either. And even it were all about personal choices, I don't think there's harm in taking a closer look at how we can help people change their choices--you know, apart from just telling someone they don't want it enough.
Some people do come back and say some variation of "thanks for the slap in the face. That's what I needed!", but just from my own anecdotal observations, those people are the minority.
I've lost 60lbs and kept it off for...4ish years now? I still have more to go. I think what helped me most was finding new and different ways to keep the negative energy balance going. I never really did crash dieting, but I will routinely change up how I look at my intake and exercise so that it's new and different...and thus interesting for me. Ironically, finding that one thing that works seems to ultimately be unsuccessful over time, for me.
I think a lot of the problems in general, come down to people not knowing how to cook, actually cooking, not taking something from a box to a pan, or following those magical "3 ingredients" recipes. People are quick to tell someone what to do or that they're wrong, but rarely do they bother to ask if someone knows HOW to change what they're doing. You can tell someone they need to increase protein or focus on more vegetables to be able to eat more, but it doesn't really help them if they don't know how to get protein outside of a drive through or a Lean Cuisine, and have spent an entire life counting frozen corn as their main vegetable.
What you're presenting is an issue of "food quality" and its effects on weight loss. I have my own views on that. It would suffice to say that I'm less inclined to care about my food coming out of a box (or not) than others.
I can only really speak for myself. I know how to cook. I'm pretty good at it. Much of the time, I simply don't want to cook. I've lost quite a bit of weight eating out of drive-throughs and boxes. Some people have trouble moderating their intake in those instances. Everyone's mileage varies.
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I kind of like the term "obesity in remission" too, which is why I said I got a charge out of it.
However, the tone of the abstract and the dismal prediction for successful maintenance after weight loss is a bit discouraging, to me.
I liked the quote yesterday in one of the abstracts linked to, that talked about obesity being a chronic condition. In fact I pasted it on my profile so I could read it again and again.
Today my mindset is going in the direction of "don't be too quick to get to maintenance because maintenance may be a lot more difficult than losing weight." So, If at some point my loss slows even more than it has, yet I'm still losing, at least that will be my focus, which has been doable for me.
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In the wild, animals with higher fat reserves have a better chance of surviving harsh conditions. So, biologically, it does make some sense that a body would try to fight to keep those reserves. Especially, if those reserves have been there for a while.
However, I think it's silly to believe that this would prevent weight loss. Biologically, burning more calories than you take in forces your body to get energy from stored fat, that's why fat is there. So, while I can totally see how the body would want to hold on to fat as long as it can, you just have to keep at it so your body understands that while it may feel like death, we aren't starving and we definitely won't die during winter.
Just my opinion.
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The use of 'may' and other terms that do not make definitive statements isn't notable or evasive; it's good empirical reporting. Research is based on statistics, which are essentially probabilities that an effect is true given appropriate controls for error. Any manuscript should be careful of making definite claims or using strong, biased wording. All I'm saying is that there is nothing unusual or suspicious about that word choice.herrspoons wrote: »Here's a link to the abstract. Note the use of weasel words like 'may'. Question that if homeostasis happens after extended period of obesity then perhaps the same effect can happen after a few years of being slim.
Stay fat and use excuses or get busy living.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(15)00009-1/abstract
Anyway, otherwise I agree with you.
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There's a difference between not knowing how to cook and choosing not to cook. You know what you're doing and make choices based on that knowledge. For someone who has no idea where to start, things that seem stupid simple to someone who can cook seem like a mystery to them. It's not a quality issue, it's an education issue.I can agree that if knowing how to lose weight and being motivated were all it took, we wouldn't see the kind of obesity numbers that we do. Objectively, just telling people that it's all about personal responsibility isn't effective either. And even it were all about personal choices, I don't think there's harm in taking a closer look at how we can help people change their choices--you know, apart from just telling someone they don't want it enough.
Some people do come back and say some variation of "thanks for the slap in the face. That's what I needed!", but just from my own anecdotal observations, those people are the minority.
I've lost 60lbs and kept it off for...4ish years now? I still have more to go. I think what helped me most was finding new and different ways to keep the negative energy balance going. I never really did crash dieting, but I will routinely change up how I look at my intake and exercise so that it's new and different...and thus interesting for me. Ironically, finding that one thing that works seems to ultimately be unsuccessful over time, for me.
I think a lot of the problems in general, come down to people not knowing how to cook, actually cooking, not taking something from a box to a pan, or following those magical "3 ingredients" recipes. People are quick to tell someone what to do or that they're wrong, but rarely do they bother to ask if someone knows HOW to change what they're doing. You can tell someone they need to increase protein or focus on more vegetables to be able to eat more, but it doesn't really help them if they don't know how to get protein outside of a drive through or a Lean Cuisine, and have spent an entire life counting frozen corn as their main vegetable.
What you're presenting is an issue of "food quality" and its effects on weight loss. I have my own views on that. It would suffice to say that I'm less inclined to care about my food coming out of a box (or not) than others.
I can only really speak for myself. I know how to cook. I'm pretty good at it. Much of the time, I simply don't want to cook. I've lost quite a bit of weight eating out of drive-throughs and boxes. Some people have trouble moderating their intake in those instances. Everyone's mileage varies.
If you start off thinking food coming out of a box is a problem in itself, you're making it a quality issue. I think mostly we see problems with people (as a group, rather than individually) becoming willfully ignorant of the energy-density of the foods we consume, and we pay a price of that.
And while I agree that education is important a good place to start (how can I possibly know how to moderate my intake if I don't know what I'm taking in?), I also see plenty of very well-informed people who are still over weight. So education is nice and all, but it's only a tiny part of the answer for a lot of people.
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herrspoons wrote: »In the wild, animals with higher fat reserves have a better chance of surviving harsh conditions. So, biologically, it does make some sense that a body would try to fight to keep those reserves. Especially, if those reserves have been there for a while.
However, I think it's silly to believe that this would prevent weight loss. Biologically, burning more calories than you take in forces your body to get energy from stored fat, that's why fat is there. So, while I can totally see how the body would want to hold on to fat as long as it can, you just have to keep at it so your body understands that while it may feel like death, we aren't starving and we definitely won't die during winter.
Just my opinion.
Also more chance of being caught by predators.
Predators don't pick the biggest animal, normally. They pick the oddball. Of course, obesity isn't normal in wildlife, either. I just found it relateable.
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http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-eat-less-more-obesity-20150212-story.html
Basically suggests that if you're obese, you're doomed to failure forever and ever because your body will do anything to gain back that fat that it's lost.
I'm somewhat skeptical but would like to hear what anyone else has to say.
I have not read the article yet, but I remember when I used to believe I was doomed to be fat forever. I was fat since infancy and thought I was just built big and there was no way I was going to get fit.
Boy was jittery wrong!
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That's a great article for people to use not to even start. The only useful piece of informations in it is that there should be support for people on maintenance.
We. Have. That. Here.0 -
There was a fantastic programme (a BBC's Horizons) made out of the scientific research about metabolism, "natural shape", fat etc. Basically, it showed that for men and women that during a certain age window, the weight where you're at during that time SETS your "natural" weight that no matter what, you always bounce back to unless you're really strict with calories in vs calories out.
There is never going to be a right or wrong way to approach those with weight problems, we process things differently and individually. People can use these to see these programmes or doctors' research or theories as another reason for not bothering.
Some will actually bother and make a difference.
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If you rely on reducing calories to lose weight, I can see were you will eventually gain it all back. But if you get involved in activities you enjoy that cause you to move more, you will tend to keep it off.0
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Oprah uses this as her excuse all the time. Once you have those fat cells in your body you are doomed....then she says she has a problem with fries....0
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I think the problem is our quick fix culture treats obesity like an acute problem when it isn't.
It isn't a disease... It is a natural consequence of certain lifestyle decisions.
If you change those habits permanently, you will keep the weight off. If you go back to your old choices, you won't.
That simple (absent certain medical conditions).0 -
People this is SCIENCE. It is not their job nor intention to either provide you a reason to lose weight nor to give you an excuse never to try. This is not propaganda. Dismissing science because it makes you nervous about your current endeavors is foolish. Take this information for what it is, and use it to not slip back into your hold habits after you reach your goal weight.
It has been long and well established that a hunger hormone, ghrelin increases with weight loss and that you inherently have lower levels that leptin, a hormone produced by fat that is a satiety hormone (lose fat, make less hormone). These aren't excuses not to try these are FACTS. Learn them, use them, continue to work hard!0 -
TimothyFish wrote: »If you rely on reducing calories to lose weight, I can see were you will eventually gain it all back. But if you get involved in activities you enjoy that cause you to move more, you will tend to keep it off.
Losing / gaining weight is calories in vs calories out [with exception to those with med problems, and yes excluding the psychological reasons why people binge or starve etc]. Calories in vs calories out includes activity.0 -
dougpconnell219 wrote: »I think the problem is our quick fix culture treats obesity like an acute problem when it isn't.
It isn't a disease... It is a natural consequence of certain lifestyle decisions.
If you change those habits permanently, you will keep the weight off. If you go back to your old choices, you won't.
That simple (absent certain medical conditions).
To be fair, for some people, those "lifestyle decisions" are packed up with some deep-rooted psychological baggage.
I overate, initially, as a child, for two reasons: one, to gain a stern mother's approval because I had a sister who wouldn't eat, and I wanted to show what a good child I was, I had been basically ignored during that sister's prolonged illness; also, to make myself unattractive to relative who sexually molested both my sister and myself.
That act of eating for comfort became a learned behavior which has taken me years to undo, as do most things you sort out with the unformed reasoning of a child.
While it's true that at any time, the acts of undergoing a program of watching what I ate and exercising would have worked to reduce my weight (and they did, this isn't my first rodeo), my chances of sustained weight loss....? Well, as I said, this isn't my first rodeo.
I had to unpack all my baggage first before I was able to realize that yeah, it really just is that simple. There really is no gimmick. I just have to watch what I eat and exercise.
It sounds simple. And it is. But when you have baggage, it's like... okay, consider weight loss like a path you have to take. And each step is a stepping stone. Baggage is a fog that's making the path difficult to follow. You don't have a clear idea of what you're facing. When you've unpacked all that, the fog clears, you can see the path for what it is, and you can set out on it, knowing exactly where you're going.
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Thinking some more on the abstract that this article was based on, I guess I can see how the researcher has come to believe that any physical tools (weight loss surgery, drugs) that can assist weight loss maintenance need to be considered and used if needed.
I've been told I weighed 70 pounds when I was 4 years old. I've seen pictures of myself and I'm sure I did. So overeating is something I started doing early. I don't know why. My parents and siblings were/are not overweight.
I really don't want to have surgery or take drugs for the rest of my life, so I'm hoping that I can maintain the weight loss I'm working on. Have to say that I feel I will be able to and this is the first time in my life I've felt that way. The one other time I lost a good amount of weight I was focused on what I'd be able to eat once I finished the diet, and eating in a rather contrived fashion (original WW in the 70s).
Learning the science behind weight loss (CICO) as well as understanding maintenance calories (the actual number that my body requires) has really changed my mindset.
I've been at this (using MFP) about a year now and it feels sustainable; much more so than the months prior to finding MFP when I was "cutting back" and "watching what I eat" that I was doing after I first made the decision to lose weight.
Do most people who want to lose weight want to completely educate themselves on the process? Not sure. The people I know IRL are not too interested, I can tell you that. Their eyes roll back in their heads when I answer questions about how I've lost weight, even though I try not to go into great detail and only respond to people who I think really want to know. I think this is why Weight Watchers is so popular. You don't need to know what's going on if you don't want to. Just follow their instructions.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »dougpconnell219 wrote: »I think the problem is our quick fix culture treats obesity like an acute problem when it isn't.
It isn't a disease... It is a natural consequence of certain lifestyle decisions.
If you change those habits permanently, you will keep the weight off. If you go back to your old choices, you won't.
That simple (absent certain medical conditions).
To be fair, for some people, those "lifestyle decisions" are packed up with some deep-rooted psychological baggage.
I overate, initially, as a child, for two reasons: one, to gain a stern mother's approval because I had a sister who wouldn't eat, and I wanted to show what a good child I was, I had been basically ignored during that sister's prolonged illness; also, to make myself unattractive to relative who sexually molested both my sister and myself.
That act of eating for comfort became a learned behavior which has taken me years to undo, as do most things you sort out with the unformed reasoning of a child.
While it's true that at any time, the acts of undergoing a program of watching what I ate and exercising would have worked to reduce my weight (and they did, this isn't my first rodeo), my chances of sustained weight loss....? Well, as I said, this isn't my first rodeo.
I had to unpack all my baggage first before I was able to realize that yeah, it really just is that simple. There really is no gimmick. I just have to watch what I eat and exercise.
It sounds simple. And it is. But when you have baggage, it's like... okay, consider weight loss like a path you have to take. And each step is a stepping stone. Baggage is a fog that's making the path difficult to follow. You don't have a clear idea of what you're facing. When you've unpacked all that, the fog clears, you can see the path for what it is, and you can set out on it, knowing exactly where you're going.
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
And I agree with all you said. I had to overcome a lot of mental health issues before I was able to even *want* to lose weight. It was only when I was under treatment, was I able to clear that path and create success for myself. I'm not blaming my obesity on anyone but myself - my decisions led me to where I was. But I do feel like tackling my issues has a lot to do with my success so far.
I think the issue with some people regaining is that for some, overeating is tied into psychological issues - comfort eating, emotional eating, boredom eating. And people lose the weight, without ever really addressing the underlying issues. So they revert back to their old behavior patterns. This is all my opinion of course.
And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying psychological issues are an excuse to be/stay fat - I do think for many, it's a reason that, once addressed will help people to be more successful.0 -
"the average adult with sustained obesity has less than a 1% chance of reattaining and maintaining a healthy body weight without surgery."
I think you have to realize it's not a win/lose situation like those sort of statistics make it sound. You don't have to be morbidly obese for life OR be a healthy BMI forever after weight loss. Losing down to just 'overweight' BMI has huge health benefits, from obesity. Losing and then regaining over and over is even preferred to what is the alternative for many-- simply gaining and gaining.0
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