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Anybody a sugar addict? Want to give it up together?
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I know this thread has "sugar" in the title, and therefore will become a dumpster fire, but since we're only a few pages in, I'm going to remind everyone of the following guideline:
2. No Hi-Jacking, Trolling, or Flame-baiting
Please stay on-topic in an existing thread, and post new threads in the appropriate forum. Taking a thread off-topic is considered hi-jacking. Please either contribute politely and constructively to a topic, or move on without posting. This includes posts that encourage the drama in a topic to escalate, or posts intended to incite an uproar from the community.
This guideline is pretty cool as well:
11. No Airing of Grievances With Moderators
b) If you have concerns about another poster, or wish to report a guideline violation, the only appropriate venue is to use the Report Post link or to message a moderator or Olivia, MFP's Community Manager. You may not air such concerns on the message boards themselves. If you have a general concern that does not involve a specific member, you may post your question in the Feedback or Help forums.
We now return to our regularly-scheduled sugar argument, already in progress.0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Why would the OP want to come back?
I would assume she means lack of self control - in fact I would think all rational thinking adults (and small children) would think that.
You are just assuming that is what she is thinking, like everyone else.
I think people say "addiction" and not self control instead, because it takes the blame off of them. When people own up to it or stop making excuses, they will have a better chance of getting to their goals.0 -
Actually where does she mention cutting back on sugar is the simplest way for her to cut back on calories. Please be specific
She said "obvious sugar", which would include obvious sources like fruit, which could have been included in the etc.
Where did I say the OP say sugar was her reason for not losing weight, if you reread what I wrote it makes no mention of the OP.
Where does she say she has a sweet tooth she wants to get under control? Again be specific
Sigh. My point is, why are you debating something that has nothing to do with the OP? You're right, maybe she isn't cutting calories (really, though, this is just getting silly) but she DID say she was cutting sugar and asked for friends. End of post. WHY the debate about something she DIDN'T ask? I must have missed the posts where she said she was cutting out fruit and asking for everyone's opinions on her decision to cut back on sugar. She didn't ask for a debate. I could understand if the OP says they're cutting out all sugar of all sorts for all time. I've yet to see anyone actually write that but there sure seem to be a lot of people who jump to that conclusion. I must be missing those posts, I guess.
OP, if you're still reading this - and I think you're brave if so - I seriously recommend finding a low carb or sugar group.0 -
You are just assuming that is what she is thinking, like everyone else.
I think people say "addiction" and not self control instead, because it takes the blame off of them. When people own up to it or stop making excuses, they will have a better chance of getting to their goals.
Well okay, but I have self control when I simply don't buy it, too. But what is a good word for whatever change happens in my little not-a-rat brain if I were to right now start eating it and want more when if I don't have it at all, I don't crave it?0 -
If you post in a public forum, you're going to get a lot of different answers. And as the guidelines state, topics in which you are only looking for responses from a limited pool of users are better in grouos, not the main forums.
And for ease of typing I'm with lemurcat...
I could say the same about the "pro" sugar group. The ones getting offended by the term "addicted" when they know full well the meaning behind it.0 -
You are just assuming that is what she is thinking, like everyone else.
I think people say "addiction" and not self control instead, because it takes the blame off of them. When people own up to it or stop making excuses, they will have a better chance of getting to their goals.
I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption and a very common phrase used by millions of people daily to describe a habit or lack of will power towards food.
I sometimes will say when I am really hungry ' jeez I'm starving, I need some food'.
Now, I know I am not actually starving, but it's a common enough saying to not be taken in the literal sense.
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Professor Bart Hoebel and his team in the Department of Psychology and the Princeton Neuroscience Institute have been studying signs of sugar addiction in rats for years. Until now, the rats under study have met two of the three elements of addiction. They have demonstrated a behavioral pattern of increased intake and then showed signs of withdrawal. His current experiments captured craving and relapse to complete the picture.
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S22/88/56G31/index.xml?section=topstories
From an evolutionary perspective, it is in the best interest of humans to have an inherent desire for food for survival. However, this desire may go awry, and certain people, including some obese and bulimic patients in particular, may develop an unhealthy dependence on palatable food that interferes with well-being. The concept of “food addiction” materialized in the diet industry on the basis of subjective reports, clinical accounts and case studies described in self-help books. The rise in obesity, coupled with the emergence of scientific findings of parallels between drugs of abuse and palatable foods has given credibility to this idea. The reviewed evidence supports the theory that, in some circumstances, intermittent access to sugar can lead to behavior and neurochemical changes that resemble the effects of a substance of abuse. According to the evidence in rats, intermittent access to sugar and chow is capable of producing a “dependency”. This was operationally defined by tests for bingeing, withdrawal, craving and cross-sensitization to amphetamine and alcohol. The correspondence to some people with binge eating disorder or bulimia is striking, but whether or not it is a good idea to call this a “food addiction” in people is both a scientific and societal question that has yet to be answered. What this review demonstrates is that rats with intermittent access to food and a sugar solution can show both a constellation of behaviors and parallel brain changes that are characteristic of rats that voluntarily self-administer addictive drugs. In the aggregrate, this is evidence that sugar can be addictive.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
LOL, at least that is real world. Oh wait it isn't
In this animal model, rats are food deprived daily for 12 h, then after a delay of 4 h into their normal circadian-driven active period, they are given 12-h access to a sugar solution and chow. As a result, they learn to drink the sugar solution copiously, especially when it first becomes available each day.0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »
I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption and a very common phrase used by millions of people daily to describe a habit or lack of will power towards food.
I sometimes will say when I am really hungry ' jeez I'm starving, I need some food'.
Now, I know I am not actually starving, but it's a common enough saying to not be taken in the literal sense.
well, you know what happens when you make assumptions….0 -
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LOL, at least that is real world. Oh wait it isn't
In this animal model, rats are food deprived daily for 12 h, then after a delay of 4 h into their normal circadian-driven active period, they are given 12-h access to a sugar solution and chow. As a result, they learn to drink the sugar solution copiously, especially when it first becomes available each day.
Are you saying they did the same thing with just rat chow?
Also there are studies showing brain changes in rats, too.
Abstract
The distinction between natural addiction and drug addiction is interesting from many points of view, including scientific and medical perspectives. “Natural addictions” are those based on activation of a physiobehavioral system, such as the one that controls metabolism, foraging, and eating to achieve energy balance. “Drug addictions” activate many systems based on their pharmacology. This review discusses the following questions: (1) When does food produce a natural addiction? Sugar causes signs of addiction if the scheduling conditions are appropriate to cause binge eating. (2) Why does addictive-like behavior result? Bingeing on a 10% sucrose solution repeatedly releases dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, and it delays the release of acetylcholine, thereby postponing satiety. Opioid involvement is shown by withdrawal caused by naloxone or food deprivation. Bingeing, withdrawal, and abstinence-induced motivation are described as the basis for a vicious cycle leading to excessive eating. (3) Which foods can lead to natural addiction? A variety of sugars, saccharin, and sham feeding are compared with bingeing on high-fat diets, which seem to lack sugar’s opioid-withdrawal characteristic. (4) How does natural food addiction relate to obesity? Low basal dopamine may be a common factor, leading to “eating for dopamine.” (5) In a neural model, the accumbens is depicted as having separate GABA output pathways for approach and avoidance, both controlled by dopamine and acetylcholine. These outputs, in turn, control lateral hypothalamic glutamate release, which starts a meal, and GABA release, which stops it.
http://journals.lww.com/journaladdictionmedicine/Abstract/2009/03000/Natural_Addiction__A_Behavioral_and_Circuit_Model.5.aspx0 -
Sigh. My point is, why are you debating something that has nothing to do with the OP? You're right, maybe she isn't cutting calories (really, though, this is just getting silly) but she DID say she was cutting sugar and asked for friends. End of post. WHY the debate about something she DIDN'T ask? I must have missed the posts where she said she was cutting out fruit and asking for everyone's opinions on her decision to cut back on sugar. She didn't ask for a debate. I could understand if the OP says they're cutting out all sugar of all sorts for all time. I've yet to see anyone actually write that but there sure seem to be a lot of people who jump to that conclusion. I must be missing those posts, I guess.
OP, if you're still reading this - and I think you're brave if so - I seriously recommend finding a low carb or sugar group.
Oh so you just made up a bunch of statements? Shocking
Actually she mentioned cutting all obvious sugars and asking for similar friends, so others asked if she was cutting fruits and the such, also obvious sugars. How do you know if you're doing something similar if you don't ask?
Maybe you should try reading and comprehending things instead of making things up0 -
Well okay, but I have self control when I simply don't buy it, too. But what is a good word for whatever change happens in my little not-a-rat brain if I were to right now start eating it and want more when if I don't have it at all, I don't crave it?
You're still giving it control over you by saying that you can't stop yourself if it's around. You firmly believe that it's bigger than you are and takes you over, when it's really a matter of your personal behavior and impulse control.
I'm a former sugar and carb "addict". I now eat both. Moderately. I had to learn that it was all about my choice, it was all my responsibility first. For too many years, I was blaming the foods for my own lack of self-control.
I agree that many people who feel that they have lost their impulse control with overeating any food group can benefit from giving it up for a time to sort of reset their behavior with it. Your taste buds can be retrained. I have much greater sensitivity to sweetness now, for example. I think that throwing in the towel and planning to abstain from anything for life is just setting yourself up for failure. Food is all around us. You'll see a commercial on tv, you'll be at a family gathering, and MOST people will cave. Long-term restriction of any kind is a dismal way to live.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »
You're still giving it control over you by saying that you can't stop yourself if it's around. You firmly believe that it's bigger than you are and takes you over, when it's really a matter of your personal behavior and impulse control.
I'm a former sugar and carb "addict". I now eat both. Moderately. I had to learn that it was all about my choice, it was all my responsibility first. For too many years, I was blaming the foods for my own lack of self-control.
I can stop myself. I just don't want to deal with the cravings. I have better things to spend willpower on. Like focusing sufficiently that I don't land on my butt while rollerblading every time I go over a twig or crack in the driveway! I'm very distractible, it costs me willpower to focus and not look around at every car sound and dog bark. Sad but true.0 -
I can stop myself. I just don't want to deal with the cravings. I have better things to spend willpower on. Like focusing sufficiently that I don't land on my butt while rollerblading every time I go over a twig or crack in the driveway! I'm very distractible, it costs me willpower to focus and not look around at every car sound and dog bark. Sad but true.
How long have you done without sugar without caving before?
There comes a point that you can reintroduce in moderation it and be craving-free. Promise.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »
How long have you done without sugar without caving before?
There comes a point that you can reintroduce in moderation it and be craving-free. Promise.
Around six months on a low carb diet. I'm back on low carb and getting more vigorous exercise this time. So far I feel great, mentally and physically. If I keep feeling great I see no reason to change.
Edit: The only food I really want to reintroduce (because it's good for me and I feel good eating it) is trailmix with raw almonds, cashews, and sunflower seeds and raisins. Someday I will do it!0 -
Around six months on a low carb diet. I'm back on low carb and getting more vigorous exercise this time. So far I feel great, mentally and physically. If I keep feeling great I see no reason to change.
You might need longer for your taste buds to reset. I was low-carb for about 5-7 years? Maybe more. I'm not saying you need that long, but here's a test for you: once an almond tastes genuinely sweet, you'll be there.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »
You might need longer for your taste buds to reset. I was low-carb for about 5-7 years? Maybe more. I'm not saying you need that long, but here's a test for you: once an almond tastes genuinely sweet, you'll be there.
Thanks, I'll remember that. They definitely don't taste sweet to me right now. Delicious, but not sweet. I wonder if that will mean raisins are too sweet? If so no matter, trailmix without raisins is good, too!0 -
Thanks, I'll remember that. They definitely don't taste sweet to me right now. Delicious, but not sweet. I wonder if that will mean raisins are too sweet? If so no matter, trailmix without raisins is good, too!
Dried fruit is cloyingly sweet to me at this point, yeah. I really do only eat sweets in moderation. Before I used to like milk chocolate only; now I can't stand it because it's too sweet. A little bit of something very sweet like cookies is really plenty if I have the urge.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »
Dried fruit is cloyingly sweet to me at this point, yeah. I really do only eat sweets in moderation. Before I used to like milk chocolate only; now I can't stand it because it's too sweet. A little bit of something very sweet like cookies is really plenty if I have the urge.
I so want to get to that point! I hope low carb keeps agreeing with me. Last time I just wasn't getting enough exercise, plus I was much heavier (I lost over 60 pounds on it in a year even with going off it on the holidays). I know I'll never look like Keto Stephanie Person because her before picture is better than my best picture, but I'd love to have her energy levels.0 -
Actually it's not people getting butthurt, it's pointing out the general ignorance of posters who want to make excuses and blame "sugar" for their inability to lose weight. If you're going to blame something for your inability to lose weight, you should probably know what that thing actually is
This is more harsh than I'd put it, but bingo.
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But I have been known *cough*last week*cough* to eat brown sugar straight out of the bag, too.
I bet this is extremely rare, though, and not what most people talking about "sugar addiction" mean. I love plenty of sweet foods (and plenty of non-sweet foods), but the idea of eating straight sugar--even brown sugar, which is the tastiest kind, is revolting to me. I recall a spoonful (of white) being a hiccup cure and it wasn't especially enjoyable. But toast some sugar and cinnamon on some buttered bread and it becomes delicious to the child me (and probably me now, though I haven't done it for ages).
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
I bet this is extremely rare, though, and not what most people talking about "sugar addiction" mean. I love plenty of sweet foods (and plenty of non-sweet foods), but the idea of eating straight sugar--even brown sugar, which is the tastiest kind, is revolting to me. I recall a spoonful (of white) being a hiccup cure and it wasn't especially enjoyable. But toast some sugar and cinnamon on some buttered bread and it becomes delicious to the child me (and probably me now, though I haven't done it for ages).
I hope it's extremely rare! I did learn something, though. If I absolutely am going to give in, there are worse things than brown sugar. It has a few nutrients and you have to eat quite a few heaping tablespoons to really wreck your day. I also found it somewhat self-limiting even though alcohol munchies may or may not have been involved that night. I didn't eat the whole bag anyway.
Anything involving bread and the whole loaf would have been demolished.0 -
Sigh. My point is, why are you debating something that has nothing to do with the OP?
For me, because the thread pretty obviously is not about the OP any more. She asked for people to join in, some did, some didn't, people who want to will contact her. But others expressed views about sugar or cutting sugar more generally or about the use of the term addiction and now we are discussing that broader topic. Presumably if people don't want a thread to become a broader discussion about food and nutrition they'd post it in the introductions section or the motivation section or go to one of the anti-sugar groups.
Why do people act as if having a more general (and perfectly pleasant) discussion about the broader topic is some kind of horrible offense.OP, if you're still reading this - and I think you're brave if so - I seriously recommend finding a low carb or sugar group.
Yes, it's brave to read a thread with opinions different from your own. Up there with rushing into a burning building. Is such ridiculous hyperbole really necessary?
One of the positives of the internet is it allows for discussion with people of a variety of views, but some people seem to think that not agreeing with them is somehow offensive (not that the OP has said that, to be fair). IMO, if I don't want alternative views or to open myself to challenge, I don't post something on the internet. This forum and specifically this section in the forum is for an interesting discussion of food and nutrition, not a place where we need to affirm someone's choice to do a cleanse or some nonsense.
Now, as it happens, I think the OP's plan is quite possibly a good one for her (and have indicated as much, with caveats), but this overreaction to people having other ideas and expressing them on the internet is bizarre.0 -
I could say the same about the "pro" sugar group. The ones getting offended by the term "addicted" when they know full well the meaning behind it.
But we DON'T know the meaning. Or at least based on past discussions and some of the things said here I think it's more likely than not that the OP means to suggest that one's liking for sugar is akin to being addicted to a drug, and that's a model I think is harmful for what most are talking about (perhaps not for some with binge eating disorders (BED), although it does seem to be bad for others with BED).
And for the record, I think it's not a helpful usage, but am not offended, and couldn't care less if someone claims to be addicted in a jokey, non-serious way. I do think it's wrong and rather insensitive to suggest that liking cookies is pretty much the same as being addicted to heroin, though (or that it's harder to deal with because you can't stop eating, as some seem to believe).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
But we DON'T know the meaning. Or at least based on past discussions and some of the things said here I think it's more likely than not that the OP means to suggest that one's liking for sugar is akin to being addicted to a drug, and that's a model I think is harmful for what most are talking about (perhaps not for some with binge eating disorders (BED), although it does seem to be bad for others with BED).
And for the record, I think it's not a helpful usage, but am not offended, and couldn't care less if someone claims to be addicted in a jokey, non-serious way. I do think it's wrong and rather insensitive to suggest that liking cookies is pretty much the same as being addicted to heroin, though (or that it's harder to deal with because you can't stop eating, as some seem to believe).
I don't think it's that wrong. Controversial, yes, but wrong? There are people who end up dying in bed after losing their jobs, mobility, independence, health, and a natural lifespan because they won't stop eating. Something to that, whatever word you want to call it.0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »
I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption and a very common phrase used by millions of people daily to describe a habit or lack of will power towards food.
I sometimes will say when I am really hungry ' jeez I'm starving, I need some food'.
Now, I know I am not actually starving, but it's a common enough saying to not be taken in the literal sense.
This would be a better argument if it weren't common for people here to claim that addiction to sugar=addiction to heroin (or sometimes cocaine or alcohol), and if there weren't currently an argument in the thread over whether sugar addiction is a thing.
In any event, IF you are right it's easy enough to clarify with "I was just using the term hyperbolically, like when I say I'm starving." If it wasn't commonly used in ways that are supposed to be literal, no one would be jumping on it. (And I'll note again that I DON'T jump on it, but try to ask for clarification or raise my concern about the addiction model more gently. Doesn't seem to matter to those who are all "how DARE you not affirm her word usage!" in their responses.)0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »
You might need longer for your taste buds to reset. I was low-carb for about 5-7 years? Maybe more. I'm not saying you need that long, but here's a test for you: once an almond tastes genuinely sweet, you'll be there.
This is interesting. Almonds have always tasted sweet to me. I added some to the banana "pudding" I made last night (one of those banana and coconut milk concoctions with some tapioca) and actually thought "wow, slivered these taste really sweet" when deciding whether to add them. I'd thought about chocolate chips instead, but went with the almonds.
I've also always been quite sensitive to sweet tastes--finding plenty of veggies and, of course, fruit sweet, finding many things too sweet (I was quite picky about what sweet wines I could stomach when I drank and preferred the dry ones)--even when I ate far more sweets than I currently do. Wonder if this is related to me having an easier time switching to moderation than some, because I didn't have to recalibrate my tastes so much.0 -
<<<How long have you done without sugar without caving before?
There comes a point that you can reintroduce in moderation it and be craving-free. Promise>>>
This can be true. In June I gave up diet soda. I didn't plan it, I went a day without it and thought I wonder how long I can do this. I had cravings for a few weeks but now I don't crave it at all. Now I probably have one glass on the weekend and that is enough, that stuff is terribly sweet
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lemurcat12 wrote: »
This would be a better argument if it weren't common for people here to claim that addiction to sugar=addiction to heroin (or sometimes cocaine or alcohol), and if there weren't currently an argument in the thread over whether sugar addiction is a thing.
In any event, IF you are right it's easy enough to clarify with "I was just using the term hyperbolically, like when I say I'm starving." If it wasn't commonly used in ways that are supposed to be literal, no one would be jumping on it. (And I'll note again that I DON'T jump on it, but try to ask for clarification or raise my concern about the addiction model more gently. Doesn't seem to matter to those who are all "how DARE you not affirm her word usage!" in their responses.)
Bingo. Because the thinking behind it is really problematic for someone who wants to lose weight AND have any hope of keeping it off. As long as you're shifting blame, the mindset isn't there for the long haul.
Granted that most weight loss efforts ultimately end in regain, but it's clear to me that those who are successful are self-aware and have a clear grasp of being in control of their own choices.
There's nothing wrong with choosing to give up sugar or carbs, for whatever reason. Framing sugar as some sort of substance with a power over you that you never could resist, however? That's scapegoating and not facing the reality of your own behavior.
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Anything involving bread and the whole loaf would have been demolished.
Yeah, see, this to me shows that triggers are more specific than people give them credit for sometimes. Bread is one of the last things in the world I'll overeat on. I don't keep it in the house because I eat it so rarely, but when I do it usually ends up going bad before I eat it all. If I bake it or get really good bread I'm more likely to remember to eat it, but I still won't overeat it. The exception is naan, but only if I have curry to eat with it.
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