Too good to be true!!?
Replies
-
tomatoey, I'm really not stalking you and I'd like to have a friendly conversation about it, and so I actually just had a thought that might help clear this up.
It seems to me that two different topics are getting blurred here.
One is what advice is useful for someone newly dieting (especially someone newly using MFP to diet). The second is why is the obesity rate what it is.
Even if social factors play into the second question (as of course they do, as my own analysis upthread suggests), that does not mean that an understanding of (a) the facts, and (b) individual appetite, food preferences, and personality differences (which will have to be done by the dieter) won't be the primary issue for decision-making by a successful dieter. That people may be in a habit of over-relying on fast food--which I think is NOT as universal among overweight people as you seem to assume, but we can drop that (it seems that most of us arguing on my side never really ate lots of fast food)--doesn't mean that the reason why is that they don't get that it's non-ideal from a caloric, satiety, or nutrition POV. It likely has more to do with their taste preferences and (even more significant, IMO) convenience factors. So the answer is not to tell them its bad, but to help them, if they need help, figure out how to change their eating patterns--how to make cooking possible, how to learn to like a broader expanse of foods. These are often hard, so not having to do it all right away might be a ray of hope even for those who fit more into the model that you are assuming.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I realize that you are, for whatever reason, sold on your notion that most fat people are fat because they've never thought to eat anything but fast food and potato chips, and while I find this kind of offensive, I have known someone who ate fast food all the time and was obese. She was also really smart and understood why she was fat. When she decided to lose weight she wasn't ready to change her diet--she liked her diet, weird as it might seem to you and I--so she reduced serving sizes. I thought it was weird at the time (this was during my hard core all natural, local, blah blah phase), but it worked for her, and as she made progress and ate less and lost she continued to modify her diet and eventually ate a much more nutritious one. I don't assume that someone who starts by focusing on calories and just modifies as necessary to meet their needs is going to fail or will never change their diet. It's just that more gradual change works for many or most. Going hardcore to a super healthy (IMO, it's not "clean") worked for me, because that's how I liked to eat already. That doesn't mean I should impose my preferences when not necessary on someone claiming to hate all veggies or love McD's.
You can find it offensive if you want, that's up to you. The reason I believe this is the case is that's there's a strong correlation between eating fast food and obesity. Correlation =/= causation fine fine fine but it's a strong-as$ correlation and it's predictable. No, I'm not going to give a cite, I have things to do today and this is pretty damn obvious, google it. It's been shown wherever fast food goes, globally, so does obesity. I think, as I've said, that this is because the low value (macro content, specifically) of the food means that people lose their sense of satiety, if ever they had it, and as a consequence eat too much.
There's nothing wrong with an individual meal of fast food in itself, but the reality on the ground is, it's just not like that for most people who eat it, is it? It's not just one burger/fries combo. It's that and pizza and whatever the hell else, day in, day out, for most meals. People absolutely can eat it without gaining but must control portions. Those are out of control in FF restaurants, too.
I am not judging you particularly, ? I'm not even judging those who eat fast food. There is a systematic problem here. Evidently.
Can you please stop stalking my posts on the subject?
Yes there is a systematic problem. It's called over-eating. Fast foods are easier to over-eat, true, but they are not the root of the problem. I, for example, rarely had fast food when I was 300+ pounds. What happened is that my portions were too big, and I used too much olive oil on my salads and vegetables.
The root of the problem is too many calories. No argument there. Yes, of course, people can gain weight eating healthy foods. No argument there either.
But to argue that the obesity crisis in so many countries has just nothing at all to do with the prevalance of fast food - its quality AND quantity - and the larger factors that drive that industry is silly and even perverse. Fast foods are easier to overeat; people eat them for many reasons; most of the people who eat it regularly, in the absence of a calorie counting regime - i.e., MOST PEOPLE - gain weight.
Nope. Sorry. I think you're missing the real root cause. It's not fast food. That just masks the real problem. Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food. It's cheap to eat pasta and potatoes, and most people overeat them.
I agree that poverty seriously plays into it, absolutely0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »A lot of people fail at diets because they think it must be complicated and there are millions of rules or special eating plans needed or because they think they hate all the foods they must eat (or that they must eat ridiculously low calories).
A lot of people also fail at diets because actual implementation of CICO - a conceptually simple idea - is bloody hard to actually stick to in a world full of tasty temptations.
0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food.
It's cheaper to not eat it.
0 -
OP - I felt similar to you when I started, and I also had a goal of losing around 15 pounds! It's something I've been trying to do for my entire adult life with little succcess, and it's not too good to be true - I lost 10 in the first couple months of using MFP. My problem was that I was always quite knowledgeable about nutrition, but didn't know very much about how to effectively gauge portion control. I realized that at a lot of meals I was eating past the point of being full simply because the food was there, having the portions spelled out for me has been incredibly helpful. Thanks to being able to track macros I also learned that I wasn't getting nearly enough protein and fibre, so hitting those goals has helped tremendously I think.
The way I use the app most of the time is as a meal planner - I consider what foods I have and i build a menu for the day with the goal of hitting all my macros (protein in particular, it's important to try to get in all the protein as it helps with weight loss and satiety). I can then add or remove items, or adjust portions to make everything fit within my calorie and macro goals. It's not as easy of course when you're eating out or don't have the time to plan ahead, but I find that by doing this as many days of the week as possible, I don't feel too stressed about the occasional day (usually on the weekend, or when going out for dinner with friends) where I don't log, or at least not as accurately as I'd like. Now that I'm almost at my goal weight I usually try to aim for a 500 calorie per day deficit during weekdays (which for me is 1340), and for maintenance on weekends (1840).
Best of luck!0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »SatietyQueen wrote: »The fact is the vast majority (and I mean vast majority) of people who start a diet, whether they count calories or don't count calories, fail miserably because they are hungry. Look it up.
Do they fail because they are hungry, or because they are unhappy with what they are eating and unsatisfied? Different things. I seriously think a lot more people believe silly myths about how you have to eat in a rigid complicated way when dieting or it won't work (and also have some ingrained idea about self-punishment and sacrifice being good vs. self indulgence being bad) than can't figure out how to eat so as not to be hungry, which is really not very complicated unless you are very dumb. Or, more likely, simply not interested in eating in the way you know would address the issue since you are not yet ready or simply don't like the relevant foods vs. how you are eating (more common).It's tough to go from an "all you can eat" diet to a 1,500-calorie diet just like that.
Reading the forums here proves otherwise. Many, many people even at calories far lower than they need are motivated at the beginning of a diet and not hungry. The reason is that none of us are that hungry--hunger is often a psychological reaction to a belief that you are deprived.
I'm sure some percentage of overweight people are because they honestly have issues with hunger, but I suspect it's a minority and common sense would help them figure out how to deal with the issue.
But perhaps you think they are all idiots.
This is a really interesting question to me. I've wondered in the past about whether I have a form of insulin resistance as I had a number of symptoms that seemed to correspond with this problem. A few months ago I was diagnosed with an endocrine disorder that is pretty common in women, and though I wasn't officially tested for it, insulin resistance is indeed usually one of the issues. I was prescribed a medication to control some of the symptoms, it's actually just a diuretic and has historically been prescribed for other medical problems, but it was found to have some success for my disorder, so it's now commonly prescribed. One of the most noticeable effects it's had for me is that my appetite has been significantly reduced. I've worked hard over the years at making healthy food choices and trying to stay within a healthy weight range, but it's always been a struggle. This medication has helped me in numerous ways, and now I wonder if my appetite on this medication is more "normal" that my previously often insatiable appetite. I feel like I have what seems to be a more "normal" appetite now, and am less preoccupied with food and hunger.
I know this is just anecdotal, but since I've had the experience of being on both sides of this issue, I can tell you my previous hunger levels weren't psychological, they were biologically rooted, and the medication has helped correct the hormonal imbalance that was likely responsible, or at least a contributor. I think that people who struggle less with weight maintenance and persistent hunger issues would benefit from the knowledge that not everyone's experience is the same as theirs, they don't necessarily have stronger "will power", it's likely that many (not all, but many) people who struggle with their weight may also have an underlying medical issue that makes it especially challenging for them.0 -
WOW 100 notifications! And a massive debate! I only started this feed for advice and encouragement lol!
I've had bangers and mash at a pub and couldn't count calories properly and feel really guilty!!!0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
I realize that you are, for whatever reason, sold on your notion that most fat people are fat because they've never thought to eat anything but fast food and potato chips, and while I find this kind of offensive, I have known someone who ate fast food all the time and was obese. She was also really smart and understood why she was fat. When she decided to lose weight she wasn't ready to change her diet--she liked her diet, weird as it might seem to you and I--so she reduced serving sizes. I thought it was weird at the time (this was during my hard core all natural, local, blah blah phase), but it worked for her, and as she made progress and ate less and lost she continued to modify her diet and eventually ate a much more nutritious one. I don't assume that someone who starts by focusing on calories and just modifies as necessary to meet their needs is going to fail or will never change their diet. It's just that more gradual change works for many or most. Going hardcore to a super healthy (IMO, it's not "clean") worked for me, because that's how I liked to eat already. That doesn't mean I should impose my preferences when not necessary on someone claiming to hate all veggies or love McD's.
You can find it offensive if you want, that's up to you. The reason I believe this is the case is that's there's a strong correlation between eating fast food and obesity. Correlation =/= causation fine fine fine but it's a strong-as$ correlation and it's predictable. No, I'm not going to give a cite, I have things to do today and this is pretty damn obvious, google it. It's been shown wherever fast food goes, globally, so does obesity. I think, as I've said, that this is because the low value (macro content, specifically) of the food means that people lose their sense of satiety, if ever they had it, and as a consequence eat too much.
There's nothing wrong with an individual meal of fast food in itself, but the reality on the ground is, it's just not like that for most people who eat it, is it? It's not just one burger/fries combo. It's that and pizza and whatever the hell else, day in, day out, for most meals. People absolutely can eat it without gaining but must control portions. Those are out of control in FF restaurants, too.
I am not judging you particularly, ? I'm not even judging those who eat fast food. There is a systematic problem here. Evidently.
Can you please stop stalking my posts on the subject?
Yes there is a systematic problem. It's called over-eating. Fast foods are easier to over-eat, true, but they are not the root of the problem. I, for example, rarely had fast food when I was 300+ pounds. What happened is that my portions were too big, and I used too much olive oil on my salads and vegetables.
The root of the problem is too many calories. No argument there. Yes, of course, people can gain weight eating healthy foods. No argument there either.
But to argue that the obesity crisis in so many countries has just nothing at all to do with the prevalance of fast food - its quality AND quantity - and the larger factors that drive that industry is silly and even perverse. Fast foods are easier to overeat; people eat them for many reasons; most of the people who eat it regularly, in the absence of a calorie counting regime - i.e., MOST PEOPLE - gain weight.
Nope. Sorry. I think you're missing the real root cause. It's not fast food. That just masks the real problem. Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food. It's cheap to eat pasta and potatoes, and most people overeat them.
Yep. There's a whole category with fast food. Less physical labor for a living, easy transportation for many of us, and with food so plentiful that it almost seems a crime not to eat it all. There are so many possible contributors that the easiest thing for me is to treat this as a math problem and avoid playing the blame game0 -
..0
-
SpartanChild88 wrote: »
they put he jail thing bc my image they got all pissed about kinda lame since unidealistic people can show themselves but i cant have afrench art drawing as my icon
I must admit I was surprised that you could post with the jail thing going on so I had a look at your profile. It may by a French art drawing but I found it a little creepy. It looks like naked photos of a child. I know it is not but it does give you that impression when you first look.
Now all of that is way of subject and I hope you get out of make believe jail soon.
0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food.
It's cheaper to not eat it.
In urban deserts where people are struggling, it's not. There aren't grocery stores there. Work all day, take a bus 2 hours to get to a dead end job, come home with another 2 hour commute, dead tired, what are you going to do for a meal? Take another bus to another neighborhood for a big grocery shop?
There are convenience stores where people can buy necessities for inflated prices. It's ridiculous. The dollar menu at Mickey D's is a cheap option.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »A lot of people fail at diets because they think it must be complicated and there are millions of rules or special eating plans needed or because they think they hate all the foods they must eat (or that they must eat ridiculously low calories).
A lot of people also fail at diets because actual implementation of CICO - a conceptually simple idea - is bloody hard to actually stick to in a world full of tasty temptations.
I don't disagree at all.
0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food.
It's cheaper to not eat it.
In urban deserts where people are struggling, it's not. There aren't grocery stores there. Work all day, take a bus 2 hours to get to a dead end job, come home with another 2 hour commute, dead tired, what are you going to do for a meal? Take another bus to another neighborhood for a big grocery shop?
There are convenience stores where people can buy necessities for inflated prices. It's ridiculous. The dollar menu at Mickey D's is a cheap option.
This is spot on!
0 -
emmaprov2015 wrote: »WOW 100 notifications! And a massive debate! I only started this feed for advice and encouragement lol!
I've had bangers and mash at a pub and couldn't count calories properly and feel really guilty!!!
Lol! It's probably around 800-1000 cals. Don't feel guilty0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food.
It's cheaper to not eat it.
In urban deserts where people are struggling, it's not. There aren't grocery stores there. Work all day, take a bus 2 hours to get to a dead end job, come home with another 2 hour commute, dead tired, what are you going to do for a meal? Take another bus to another neighborhood for a big grocery shop?
There are convenience stores where people can buy necessities for inflated prices. It's ridiculous. The dollar menu at Mickey D's is a cheap option.
I'm 100% with you.
You know who's mostly at the McD's and Tim Horton's (where you can get a donut and coffee and sandwich for ~ five bucks) in my area? Low-income seniors.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food.
It's cheaper to not eat it.
In urban deserts where people are struggling, it's not. There aren't grocery stores there. Work all day, take a bus 2 hours to get to a dead end job, come home with another 2 hour commute, dead tired, what are you going to do for a meal? Take another bus to another neighborhood for a big grocery shop?
There are convenience stores where people can buy necessities for inflated prices. It's ridiculous. The dollar menu at Mickey D's is a cheap option.
And, even beyond that, people in poverty have REAL infrastructure issues to face when trying to produce home-cooked meals. My SIL worked at a social service charity, and they heard from many clients that they had grown up either in foster care situations or eating fast food themselves and had no idea of how to start eating healthier. So, the agency brought in a nutritionist to give some classes in easy-to-prepare healthy food. Many clients came in, legitimately wanting to learn...only to keep raising their hands to ask where to buy pots and pans, how much do they cost, can you cook any of this on a single hotplate burner in an SRO hotel, what if you don't have a working fridge.....
0 -
And, even beyond that, people in poverty have REAL infrastructure issues to face when trying to produce home-cooked meals. My SIL worked at a social service charity, and they heard from many clients that they had grown up either in foster care situations or eating fast food themselves and had no idea of how to start eating healthier. So, the agency brought in a nutritionist to give some classes in easy-to-prepare healthy food. Many clients came in, legitimately wanting to learn...only to keep raising their hands to ask where to buy pots and pans, how much do they cost, can you cook any of this on a single hotplate burner in an SRO hotel, what if you don't have a working fridge.....
This is an excellent point.
I think it's a different issue from what creates difficulty for people on MFP, of course, but it's one reason why simply addressing the urban desert problem (which is a good thing) frequently don't make as big a difference as people assume it will, at least not in the short term.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »And, even beyond that, people in poverty have REAL infrastructure issues to face when trying to produce home-cooked meals. My SIL worked at a social service charity, and they heard from many clients that they had grown up either in foster care situations or eating fast food themselves and had no idea of how to start eating healthier. So, the agency brought in a nutritionist to give some classes in easy-to-prepare healthy food. Many clients came in, legitimately wanting to learn...only to keep raising their hands to ask where to buy pots and pans, how much do they cost, can you cook any of this on a single hotplate burner in an SRO hotel, what if you don't have a working fridge.....
This is an excellent point.
I think it's a different issue from what creates difficulty for people on MFP, of course, but it's one reason why simply addressing the urban desert problem (which is a good thing) frequently don't make as big a difference as people assume it will, at least not in the short term.
I agree this is an excellent point. We saw a similar thing when Jamie Oliver did one of his school editions in England. The children had no idea what a vegetable was. He was holding up various fruits and vegetables and they could not identify them. Chips - now they were a vegetable! Some of these children are growing up without even learning the most basics rules in regards to good nutrition.
This is not an ad but hey look at this really great lunchbox I just found for kids (and me).
http://planetbox.com/0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »Poverty is more of a driving force behind obesity than the fast food industry is. It's CHEAP to eat fast food.
It's cheaper to not eat it.
In urban deserts where people are struggling, it's not. There aren't grocery stores there. Work all day, take a bus 2 hours to get to a dead end job, come home with another 2 hour commute, dead tired, what are you going to do for a meal? Take another bus to another neighborhood for a big grocery shop?
There are convenience stores where people can buy necessities for inflated prices. It's ridiculous. The dollar menu at Mickey D's is a cheap option.
No grocery store on the bus routes to buy food once a week or once every two weeks? Many grocery stores I've been to have the city bus stopping in front of them
0 -
Re: identifying fruits and veggies: I learned most of them (beyond basic common ones) in cashier's school when I started a job at the supermarket. This was about 10 years before scanners became common in our area...now I bet they don't even have to learn them...
Schools should focus less on obscure bizarre common core math lol...are and focus more on basic nutrition and independent living. Those classes were optional when I was in high school. They should be required.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392.9K Introduce Yourself
- 43.7K Getting Started
- 260.1K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.8K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 415 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.9K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.6K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.5K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions