Need help with marathon training and speed improvement!

LaurenAOK · February 2015

Hello MFP! It's been a while!

I completed my first half marathon last weekend (yay) and am now training for my next goal: a marathon! I actually don't love running all that much, but it's something I'd like to do at least once in my life. After I do a marathon I'm going back to short distances

Anyway, my main goal is to improve my speed. I did my half marathon at about 5.2mph (11:30/mile), and I know I can do a lot better than that. I can run short distances (~3 miles) at about 8:00-9:00/mile, though it's really hard. My goal is to do the marathon at about 6mph (10:00/mile), which I think is realistic. I'm aiming to do one by the end of this year, but I don't mind waiting until next year if it takes that long to train.

So, my question is how to go about it. I can see two options and am wondering which is better.

The first option I can see is to basically start over with distance training, and focus on running at my desired speed. I'm looking at Hal Higdon's 30 week marathon training plan, which only has you running a few miles at a time for the first several weeks, and then slowly building from there. Since I know I can already run a few miles at my desired speed, I could just slowly try to build up the distance at that speed.

The other option is kind of the opposite - continue running long distances (10-20 miles for long runs), slowly add even more mileage, and slowly work on improving speed. So, work on a few weeks at 11:30/mile, then a few weeks at 11:15/mile, and so on and so forth.

I'm leaning towards the first one if only because it means, at least for the first couple of months, shorter runs which take up less time in my schedule. I'm absurdly busy and finding time to run is really hard.

Would love opinions on the pros/cons of these plans and which one might be more beneficial! Or should I do something else entirely? Thanks runners!

Sam_I_Am77 · February 2015

Hi Lauren,
To work on your running speed you should get involved in a good strength training program. Since marathon running seems to be your primary goal, probably a program that is 2 to 3 days per week at most. The stronger you are the better your running posture will be and the stronger your ground force contact will be (GFC). Improved GFC is a big determinant of speed improvement. If you belong to a gym then a trainer with a CSCS or PES would be ideal to help you.

LaurenAOK · February 2015

Thanks for the advice! I can't afford a trainer, but fortunately I already do strength train a lot. In fact, the reason I don't love running is because I enjoy lifting much more. So that base is covered!

MeanderingMammal · February 2015

You probably need to think about splitting your goals; improve pace and run the distance. Marathon training is lots of long, steady miles so you may see some improvement in your 5 to 10K times but not to bring your speed up for the long distance.

What I've seen recomended elsewhere is perhaps do a 10 mile speed improvement plan, to bring you up to a 10 min mile for that sort of distance. Once you've done that then try another HM and see where you've got to, before switching onto a marathon plan.

The issue you have with your first approach is that making a decent dent in your pace still involves a lot of miles, but in tempo and interval sessions. Most of my speed sessions at the moment are in the order of 10 to 12 km, increasing to 15km, so still time consuming.

WhatMeRunning · February 2015

If you have the strength down, how is your form and cadence? If you have all three of these in line properly then I would recommend going for distance first. If any of these are lacking, go with your reduced mileage plan and focus on improving form or cadence to help you get that extra speed. There's not much else besides strength, form and cadence to help you go further and develop more endurance. Hope that helps.

kozinskey · February 2015

Honestly, I would recommend training for and running another half or two to practice keeping up speed at long distances. Marathon pace can be pretty unpredictable the first time out, and a goal I thought was realistic based on my half marathon PR for my first marathon turned out to be half an hour fast. Don't underestimate the toll 20 miles can put on your body, and how hard the last 10k can get.

Also, as someone who's run a 5-hour marathon, it's really not a fun experience. I would definitely recommend getting to a point where 10 minute miles are an easy pace for you, and your 5k pace is in the low 8:00s before starting a marathon training plan.

rjbram · February 2015

It's worth getting the Hansons marathon training book. Very reasonable plan

Sam_I_Am77 · February 2015

LaurenAOK wrote: »

Thanks for the advice! I can't afford a trainer, but fortunately I already do strength train a lot. In fact, the reason I don't love running is because I enjoy lifting much more. So that base is covered!

How are you managing your strength training now, what are you doing?

glevinso · February 2015

kozinskey wrote: »

Honestly, I would recommend training for and running another half or two to practice keeping up speed at long distances. Marathon pace can be pretty unpredictable the first time out, and a goal I thought was realistic based on my half marathon PR for my first marathon turned out to be half an hour fast. Don't underestimate the toll 20 miles can put on your body, and how hard the last 10k can get.

Also, as someone who's run a 5-hour marathon, it's really not a fun experience. I would definitely recommend getting to a point where 10 minute miles are an easy pace for you, and your 5k pace is in the low 8:00s before starting a marathon training plan.

I came in here to say pretty much this.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but running a marathon at your pace is going to be incredibly painful. If you ran a half at 11:30mi, you can expect your marathon to be in the 5.5-6 hour range (12:15-12:45/mi). Not fun.

You are quite a bit far off from attempting to run a full at 10:00/mi. To do so I would expect you to be running closer to a 2:00 half (9:09mi)

My recommendation is to run more half marathons. Do a lot of them. They are not so long that they hurt your body to do. Get that time down into the low 2:00 to even under 2:00 before attempting to build for a full. You will enjoy the process much more if you are NOT suffering through 18-22 mile long runs every weekend, and 10 mile tempo runs in the middle of the week, and all the short 6 milers you have to do between them.

Running a full marathon is nothing at all like running a half twice. The half way mark of a full comes around the 20 mile point. Then all the pain of the first 20 gets squeezed into a tight little 10k package of suffering at the end.

Roxiegirl2008 · February 2015

I think it is great that you want to tackel a marathon.

I agree with others that have said get a few more 1/2 marathons under your belt before doing a full. I just completed my first full in January. Up to that point I had done only 1/2s. I am not the fastest runner. Like most, my pace tends to slow down the longer the runs simply because that is the way it happens.

To give you some idea of my times:
5k- 26-27 mintues
1/2-marathon 2:06 (my latest time)
Full- 4:42

All races are different but it is good to know where you will need to "mentally" talk to yourself. For example I know that mile 9 no matter the distance I am running is always my crappy mile. I only learned that from running races and the training runs that I do.

Also, marathon training is a full time commitment. I think you have to like running a little to be able to force yourself outside when the weather is nasty. I love to run so that made it easy for me to go outside and run in the rain with 38 degree temps.

Good luck and find some really great 1/2s to do. That will make your marathon once you do it a much better experience.

scottb81 · February 2015

Your problem isn't speed. Your problem is aerobic capacity. To build that you need to run lots of easy miles under about 70% Heart Rate Reserve. Run exclusevely at that effort level for at least 3 to 6 months (longer is better). Your aerobic capacity is your body's ability to use oxygen to convert fat to energy. As it increases you will be able to run faster with equal or less effort.

To calculate your Heart Rate Reserve:

Heart Rate Reserve (HRR) Formula
%HRR = RHR + X%*(MHR-RHR)

RHR=Resting Heart Rate
MHR = Max Heart Rate
X% = The % HRR you are calculating for

LaurenAOK · February 2015

Thanks for the great advice everyone! I appreciate the honesty that my goals may not be realistic right now. I would love to do more half marathons but unfortunately that's not something I have the money for (races are expensive)! Of course, I don't see why I can't just go do my own half marathons every once in a while - I'm fortunate enough to live near Central Park.

I didn't want to get into it in my main post, but I guess I should have mentioned that the reason I'm training for a marathon now is because I'll be moving back to the south next year, and I'd love to do one of the northeastern marathons before then. Since flying is expensive, doing it while I still live here will be one of my last chances for a while. That's why I'm eager to train for a marathon now.

I will definitely take into account what everyone said, and maybe set my goals a little lower. Perhaps I should focus mostly on just finishing a marathon, not the speed. Though I would still like to improve a little.

The good news is, my speed during runs gets consistently faster with every mile, every single time. For example, my half marathon first mile was over 12 mins, and last mile was under 10, with a steady increase in between. I know I need to really work on my pacing (it's my biggest issue), but my point is that I'm not running out of steam towards the end or anything. Actually, aside from being sore afterwards, I found the half pretty easy. I know a marathon will be a LOT harder, though - not trying to minimize that!

The last thing I forgot to mention is that I'm so busy right now because of school, but that ends in May. After that I'll have a lot more time to devote to training, which is helpful. Thanks again for the help, and any further advice is appreciated.

kristinegift · February 2015

I agree with what others have said. Either train to run a slow and steady marathon, or train to improve your speed. You ran an 11:30 pace half, and want to run double the distance, AND cut 1:30 off each mile? All in one year? I'm not sure it's feasible. I would recommend training to run a quicker/more comfortable half marathon at that 10:00/mile pace before considering a marathon.

To put things in perspective: last summer before my first marathon, I was running a 2 hour half marathon, a 42 minute 5 mile, and a 7:20-ish mile. I still ran a 4:40 marathon, which is well over a 10 minute pace, and it was definitely a challenge. This is why I recommend sticking with halves through this year before considering marathon training.

However, having read your most recent post, OP, you could train, but you might not want to expect 10 minute miles. If you really want to do a marathon while you're in the NE, just make sure you have realistic expectations about how long the race itself will take, as well as the training. AND LASTLY, I totally agree that races are super expensive. I budgeted my spring/fall full and half marathons and just about choked.

Need help with marathon training and speed improvement!

Replies

Categories