WHY WON'T YOU FIT INSIDE ME?!

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

AliceDark wrote: »

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

SezxyStef wrote: »

This is just my opinion (lifted for 2 years now and no where near the mental state for a bulk) that bulking is mentally hard...I've watched friends do it and they aren't noobs and it's hard on them.

I personally prefer the recomp, yes it takes a while but if you go to the ETP group you will see a story in there of a woman who did a recomp over a year and all I am going to say it HOLY F**K...that's what made me dismiss a bulk for me.

If you want to be stronger you don't have to bulk. Stronglifts, starting strength or 5/3/1 (or any of the programs out there) will get you strong...trust me on that...I started benching 35-40lbs I think and now bench 135lbs...no bulk ever done.

If you want to lose fat and maintain your look you don't have to bulk. You can eat at Maintenance and lift and you will see results.

I'm not completely knocking out the idea of bulking, but this is what I'm afraid of-- the mental challenge that is bulking/cutting. I mean, I'm sure it's different for everyone, but my body does not handle extreme change like that very well... I'm on a multitude of supplements because I don't get enough of this or that. I don't want to go from "nom nom nom" to "no you can't have that"

I'm going to take both into consideration. I feel like recomp (even if only for a while) is worth giving a shot (even though I know it's the not the favored method) It's not impossible, I've seen the success stories myself...

All I know is that this bulking this is already weighing crazy heavy on my mind... I appreciate all the advice thus far, and I'm in no way dismissing anyone's opinions or words of wisdom. I just want to test the waters, do my own research, and see how I feel about it.

I'm not a big fan of the standard -20/+20 recomp, as your total weekly intake vs. burn wouldn't be a surplus enough to actually build any muscle efficiently. But I'm curious how eating at maintenance on off days, and surplus on lifting days would work? (Please don't chastise me, I'm honestly just theorizing here)

Bulking is a mindf*ck. Especially if you're coming from a mindset of trying to lose weight, and just about every woman has all of those "eat less!" messages in her brain whether she's been trying to lose or not, going into a bulk kind of feels like someone turned the world sideways. It's very much an "everything you thought was true is now false" kind of experience. I get the confusion you're feeling.

However, Stef brought up a really important point. If you're that new to lifting, bulking isn't a good idea right now. I'll find some supporting evidence in a second and edit this, but a lot of people who know way more about this than I do say that you should max out your newbie gains at maintenance before bulking. (Something about inefficient bulking when you're untrained...I will find a link, I promise...)

In any case, I would really urge you to eat at maintenance and lift like crazy for 6 months or so before bulking. You'll be in a MUCH better mental place to bulk, and your body will be ready for it. Since you're an untrained lifter, you'll see a good increase in strength over those 6 months even if you're not in a surplus.

Edit...Ha, I thought it was Waldo's site! http://strengthunbound.com/bulking-complete-guide-for-beginners/

"The body adapts to strength training at first through your nervous system, using the muscle you have more efficiently, and by increasing the number of nuclei in the muscles (which itself does not contribute to size). This initial adaptation acts as a foundation that will eventually allow hypertrophy to occur. [1]

When you first start strength training, the body just isn’t ready to grow bigger muscles efficiently.

When you have more than ample capacity for beginner strength gains, training doesn’t produce as much muscle tension or fatigue as the existing muscle is capable of producing. Given the exact same amount of muscle mass, if you compare a person that has been strength training 6 months vs. one that has been training 2 weeks, the more experienced trainee will be much stronger and will gain muscle much more efficiently in a calorie surplus.

It should take 4-6 months of regular strength training for beginner gains start to slow down. You can definitely begin to bulk before this point, though efficiency will be sacrificed a bit (resulting in greater fat gain). Note however untrained individuals that have just begun strength training should wait a few months before attempting a calorie surplus."

Wow! Awesome link and advice. Thank you!! I knew something didn't feel quite right about bulking just yet. Thanks again!

OK, in my personal experience and through reading Rippetoe and others, this is not a set-in-stone thing. Staying at maintenance while trying to capitalize on "noob" gains, right off the bat, is not recommended; rather, Rippetoe suggests just going for it; capitalize on those noob gains right at the start, which includes facilitating muscle growth through excess calories.

How can you truly expect to capitalize on those noob gains when you're not feeding those muscles??? Why wouldn't you want to feed those new gains as much as you can? You don't have to eat a dozen pizzas, but holy moly, we're talking feeding your body what, an extra 250 calories or so a day. Geez.

CarlydogsMom wrote: »

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

AliceDark wrote: »

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

SezxyStef wrote: »

This is just my opinion (lifted for 2 years now and no where near the mental state for a bulk) that bulking is mentally hard...I've watched friends do it and they aren't noobs and it's hard on them.

I personally prefer the recomp, yes it takes a while but if you go to the ETP group you will see a story in there of a woman who did a recomp over a year and all I am going to say it HOLY F**K...that's what made me dismiss a bulk for me.

If you want to be stronger you don't have to bulk. Stronglifts, starting strength or 5/3/1 (or any of the programs out there) will get you strong...trust me on that...I started benching 35-40lbs I think and now bench 135lbs...no bulk ever done.

If you want to lose fat and maintain your look you don't have to bulk. You can eat at Maintenance and lift and you will see results.

I'm not completely knocking out the idea of bulking, but this is what I'm afraid of-- the mental challenge that is bulking/cutting. I mean, I'm sure it's different for everyone, but my body does not handle extreme change like that very well... I'm on a multitude of supplements because I don't get enough of this or that. I don't want to go from "nom nom nom" to "no you can't have that"

I'm going to take both into consideration. I feel like recomp (even if only for a while) is worth giving a shot (even though I know it's the not the favored method) It's not impossible, I've seen the success stories myself...

All I know is that this bulking this is already weighing crazy heavy on my mind... I appreciate all the advice thus far, and I'm in no way dismissing anyone's opinions or words of wisdom. I just want to test the waters, do my own research, and see how I feel about it.

I'm not a big fan of the standard -20/+20 recomp, as your total weekly intake vs. burn wouldn't be a surplus enough to actually build any muscle efficiently. But I'm curious how eating at maintenance on off days, and surplus on lifting days would work? (Please don't chastise me, I'm honestly just theorizing here)

Bulking is a mindf*ck. Especially if you're coming from a mindset of trying to lose weight, and just about every woman has all of those "eat less!" messages in her brain whether she's been trying to lose or not, going into a bulk kind of feels like someone turned the world sideways. It's very much an "everything you thought was true is now false" kind of experience. I get the confusion you're feeling.

However, Stef brought up a really important point. If you're that new to lifting, bulking isn't a good idea right now. I'll find some supporting evidence in a second and edit this, but a lot of people who know way more about this than I do say that you should max out your newbie gains at maintenance before bulking. (Something about inefficient bulking when you're untrained...I will find a link, I promise...)

In any case, I would really urge you to eat at maintenance and lift like crazy for 6 months or so before bulking. You'll be in a MUCH better mental place to bulk, and your body will be ready for it. Since you're an untrained lifter, you'll see a good increase in strength over those 6 months even if you're not in a surplus.

Edit...Ha, I thought it was Waldo's site! http://strengthunbound.com/bulking-complete-guide-for-beginners/

"The body adapts to strength training at first through your nervous system, using the muscle you have more efficiently, and by increasing the number of nuclei in the muscles (which itself does not contribute to size). This initial adaptation acts as a foundation that will eventually allow hypertrophy to occur. [1]

When you first start strength training, the body just isn’t ready to grow bigger muscles efficiently.

When you have more than ample capacity for beginner strength gains, training doesn’t produce as much muscle tension or fatigue as the existing muscle is capable of producing. Given the exact same amount of muscle mass, if you compare a person that has been strength training 6 months vs. one that has been training 2 weeks, the more experienced trainee will be much stronger and will gain muscle much more efficiently in a calorie surplus.

It should take 4-6 months of regular strength training for beginner gains start to slow down. You can definitely begin to bulk before this point, though efficiency will be sacrificed a bit (resulting in greater fat gain). Note however untrained individuals that have just begun strength training should wait a few months before attempting a calorie surplus."

Wow! Awesome link and advice. Thank you!! I knew something didn't feel quite right about bulking just yet. Thanks again!

OK, in my personal experience and through reading Rippetoe and others, this is not a set-in-stone thing. Staying at maintenance while trying to capitalize on "noob" gains, right off the bat, is not recommended; rather, Rippetoe suggests just going for it; capitalize on those noob gains right at the start, which includes facilitating muscle growth through excess calories.

How can you truly expect to capitalize on those noob gains when you're not feeding those muscles??? Why wouldn't you want to feed those new gains as much as you can? You don't have to eat a dozen pizzas, but holy moly, we're talking feeding your body what, an extra 250 calories or so a day. Geez.

Have you ever bulked? I'm not being confrontational -- I'm actually asking, because it's in no way as easy as you're making it sound (for most people, anyway. Maybe it was no big deal for you, but I don't know any women who have bulked and didn't find it to be a real mental challenge).

All physical stuff aside, purposefully overeating every day for months at a time takes an enormous amount of faith in the process, in yourself and in your lifting ability. There's really no way to tell for absolute sure whether you're building as much muscle as you're capable of, or if you're just getting fat. Any uncertainty about your lifting ability will make that so much worse. Someone who is still a newbie lifter and is still figuring out their capacity for progression isn't going to be able to safely maximize their potential. (OP, I don't mean to downplay your abilities or knock you in any way. Every new lifter starts out in the same place, and it just takes time to build up confidence and knowledge). There's no way I would take on the challenge of bulking until I'd maxed out what I could gain at maintenance first. If I'm going to commit 6-8 months to a bulk/cut cycle, I'd personally want to be sure that I was going to get as much out of it as possible, and you just can't say that when you're brand-new.

AliceDark wrote: »

CarlydogsMom wrote: »

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

AliceDark wrote: »

NekoneMeowMixx wrote: »

SezxyStef wrote: »

This is just my opinion (lifted for 2 years now and no where near the mental state for a bulk) that bulking is mentally hard...I've watched friends do it and they aren't noobs and it's hard on them.

I personally prefer the recomp, yes it takes a while but if you go to the ETP group you will see a story in there of a woman who did a recomp over a year and all I am going to say it HOLY F**K...that's what made me dismiss a bulk for me.

If you want to be stronger you don't have to bulk. Stronglifts, starting strength or 5/3/1 (or any of the programs out there) will get you strong...trust me on that...I started benching 35-40lbs I think and now bench 135lbs...no bulk ever done.

If you want to lose fat and maintain your look you don't have to bulk. You can eat at Maintenance and lift and you will see results.

I'm not completely knocking out the idea of bulking, but this is what I'm afraid of-- the mental challenge that is bulking/cutting. I mean, I'm sure it's different for everyone, but my body does not handle extreme change like that very well... I'm on a multitude of supplements because I don't get enough of this or that. I don't want to go from "nom nom nom" to "no you can't have that"

I'm going to take both into consideration. I feel like recomp (even if only for a while) is worth giving a shot (even though I know it's the not the favored method) It's not impossible, I've seen the success stories myself...

All I know is that this bulking this is already weighing crazy heavy on my mind... I appreciate all the advice thus far, and I'm in no way dismissing anyone's opinions or words of wisdom. I just want to test the waters, do my own research, and see how I feel about it.

I'm not a big fan of the standard -20/+20 recomp, as your total weekly intake vs. burn wouldn't be a surplus enough to actually build any muscle efficiently. But I'm curious how eating at maintenance on off days, and surplus on lifting days would work? (Please don't chastise me, I'm honestly just theorizing here)

Bulking is a mindf*ck. Especially if you're coming from a mindset of trying to lose weight, and just about every woman has all of those "eat less!" messages in her brain whether she's been trying to lose or not, going into a bulk kind of feels like someone turned the world sideways. It's very much an "everything you thought was true is now false" kind of experience. I get the confusion you're feeling.

However, Stef brought up a really important point. If you're that new to lifting, bulking isn't a good idea right now. I'll find some supporting evidence in a second and edit this, but a lot of people who know way more about this than I do say that you should max out your newbie gains at maintenance before bulking. (Something about inefficient bulking when you're untrained...I will find a link, I promise...)

In any case, I would really urge you to eat at maintenance and lift like crazy for 6 months or so before bulking. You'll be in a MUCH better mental place to bulk, and your body will be ready for it. Since you're an untrained lifter, you'll see a good increase in strength over those 6 months even if you're not in a surplus.

Edit...Ha, I thought it was Waldo's site! http://strengthunbound.com/bulking-complete-guide-for-beginners/

"The body adapts to strength training at first through your nervous system, using the muscle you have more efficiently, and by increasing the number of nuclei in the muscles (which itself does not contribute to size). This initial adaptation acts as a foundation that will eventually allow hypertrophy to occur. [1]

When you first start strength training, the body just isn’t ready to grow bigger muscles efficiently.

When you have more than ample capacity for beginner strength gains, training doesn’t produce as much muscle tension or fatigue as the existing muscle is capable of producing. Given the exact same amount of muscle mass, if you compare a person that has been strength training 6 months vs. one that has been training 2 weeks, the more experienced trainee will be much stronger and will gain muscle much more efficiently in a calorie surplus.

It should take 4-6 months of regular strength training for beginner gains start to slow down. You can definitely begin to bulk before this point, though efficiency will be sacrificed a bit (resulting in greater fat gain). Note however untrained individuals that have just begun strength training should wait a few months before attempting a calorie surplus."

Wow! Awesome link and advice. Thank you!! I knew something didn't feel quite right about bulking just yet. Thanks again!

OK, in my personal experience and through reading Rippetoe and others, this is not a set-in-stone thing. Staying at maintenance while trying to capitalize on "noob" gains, right off the bat, is not recommended; rather, Rippetoe suggests just going for it; capitalize on those noob gains right at the start, which includes facilitating muscle growth through excess calories.

How can you truly expect to capitalize on those noob gains when you're not feeding those muscles??? Why wouldn't you want to feed those new gains as much as you can? You don't have to eat a dozen pizzas, but holy moly, we're talking feeding your body what, an extra 250 calories or so a day. Geez.

Have you ever bulked? I'm not being confrontational -- I'm actually asking, because it's in no way as easy as you're making it sound (for most people, anyway. Maybe it was no big deal for you, but I don't know any women who have bulked and didn't find it to be a real mental challenge).

All physical stuff aside, purposefully overeating every day for months at a time takes an enormous amount of faith in the process, in yourself and in your lifting ability. There's really no way to tell for absolute sure whether you're building as much muscle as you're capable of, or if you're just getting fat. Any uncertainty about your lifting ability will make that so much worse. Someone who is still a newbie lifter and is still figuring out their capacity for progression isn't going to be able to safely maximize their potential. (OP, I don't mean to downplay your abilities or knock you in any way. Every new lifter starts out in the same place, and it just takes time to build up confidence and knowledge). There's no way I would take on the challenge of bulking until I'd maxed out what I could gain at maintenance first. If I'm going to commit 6-8 months to a bulk/cut cycle, I'd personally want to be sure that I was going to get as much out of it as possible, and you just can't say that when you're brand-new.

Yes, I've been on a slow bulk all winter (about 5-6 months now), and you're right, it's probably harder mentally than it is physically. I about freaked when my trainer led me down this path. But once you see how quickly you gain strength (the muscle mass slowly follows; slowly) and do more reading and thinking, then more thinking and reading, and more lifting...it becomes very intuitive. Honestly, doing a bulk right...there's nothing quite so gratifying. And, more than that, it's totally FREEING. Frees you from this number-on-a-scale obsession. Wouldn't that be worth it???

The reason I tend to support a slow-bulk-then-cut cycle is looking at my own muscle strength and mass gains. I'm on a bulk, and it's SLOW. It's not like muscles popped out overnight. Heck, even 5-6 months after heaving lifting and bulking, it's HARD to see additional muscle definition (the fact I'm in my early 50's and am not hitting it as hard as maybe a 20+ year old can/could may be a factor). The strength gains are there, and I'm pretty proud of them, but I most definitely am not turning into a body beast, and I've been using the bulk method.

I can't imagine how frustrating it'd be for someone trying the "re-comp" (eat at maintenance, at least, while lifting and shifting fat to muscle), I don't think you'd really see results that would keep you motivated, especially as a beginner weight lifter. It would probably take me 9 months of tracking every damn calorie, macro, exercise, etc. to see one little change; I don't know if I could hang with it. I don't have the patience, and I have seen amazing changes so rapidly through bulking. It keeps me going for sure.

Look, if you've lost weight with a calorie deficit, but aren't completely jazzed by the amount of strength/muscle you have, and want to change, then why not change? As my trainer told me when I gave him the deer in the headlights look after he said I should consider bulking, "you know how to lose weight, you've done that. A slow gain of maybe 10 pounds over the winter months will mean around half fat, half (maybe!) muscle. So you enter a cut trying to lose those five pounds. You can do that."

Honestly, it's the easier way. You see rapid strength gains, you get probably more rapid muscle mass gains than you would on a mainteance/re-comp, you're more jazzed to keep going. And you free yourself from the scale (I still weigh in, but I have completely stopped freaking out over every pound or two gained, because I know it'll come off later).

Plus it's a great way to live. A few months where you can treat yourself with those extra calories (of nutritious food, is my choice) and really see some gains, then cut and watch the muscle definition grow, inches disappear, and get excited about that. So much better than to do the agonizingly slow, meticulous hyper-macro-watching/measuring, exactness of re-comp that never switches up, never changes. Ugh. Slow-bulk and cut any day!