Why are we in such a hurry
shmoony
Posts: 237 Member
So, in the losing weight forum, one of the most valuable pieces of advice people receive is that losing weight is a slow steady process that is best achieved through a moderate deficit. People are told to not get discouraged, and that it will not happen overnight. Then, when they lose the weight and want to gain muscle people are told to hurry up and eat a bunch of donuts (while hitting their macros and calorie goal of course). Not that I am against bulking, but why not have the same approach to gaining as losing? People often say how slow recomping is. Who cares? It's really about the process isn't it? I was told 3 years ago that the only way to get big was to "eat all the foods". I didn't listen and instead decided to eat slightly above maintenance for as long as it took to get to the size I wanted to be. I have since gained about 14 lbs. and managed to keep my abs the entire time. So sure, maybe I would have gained that 14 lbs. faster if I had done a series of bulk/cuts, but why would I care. If losing weight is all about calculating ones TDEE and establishing a lifestyle and relationship with food that comfortably allows you to manipulate your composition, why is the advice on here so typically conflictive when it comes to gaining?
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Replies
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This is an interesting point.0
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no one says hurry up.
everyone here says
a small/moderate calorie surplus- if you are struggling- then add higher calorie food and take a few months to build.
I always recommend 4-6 months bulking.
as for taking 3 years to put on weight? good for you- most people don't have the kind of long term dedication to stick out a recomp- which is why a cut/bulk cycle gets recommended.
Success/results = motivation = more doing = more success.
There is no reason you couldn't have had the same results a little faster- you would have been just as successful if not MORE so had you done 2-3 bulk cut cycles.
neither way is wrong- but don't needlessly drag it out if you don't have to.0 -
I've never heard anyone say to "hurry up" on a bulk. A slow bulk is the way you want to do it in order to minimize fat gains just as a slow cut is the way you want to do it to maximize fat loss and minimize muscle loss.
I think you're listening to the wrong people...I never hear to "hurry up" and eat all the doughnuts or whatever.
That said, when I did my bulk I needed to consume about 3200 calories per day to gain about 1 - 2 Lbs per month...I found it pretty difficult to hit that target without some of what would traditionally be considered "junk" food. It took me about 5 months to put on about 8 Lbs Maybe your'e just misinterpreting information.
Also, a recomp isn't a bulk...it's not the same thing...I did a recomp for 1.5 years and lost some fat and put on some muscle and maybe weighed a couple pounds more than I did when I came out of my cut...then I decided to do an actual bulk because I wanted to put on some actual mass and break through some lifting plateaus...but again...it was slow, just as my weight loss is slow.
I just think maybe you're a little confused about things.0 -
I've been on here for a month learning about building muscle and most of the advice is to go slower and not gain too fast. yes they emphasize high calorie foods to help hit your calories goals, but I wouldn't say that anyone has given advice to eat recklessly.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »This is an interesting point.
funny how interesting wrong points can be.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »This is an interesting point.
funny how interesting wrong points can be.
Agreed. The op shows a lack of understanding regarding bulking.
I've never seen anyone recommend a fast bulk.0 -
I'm certainly not confused about things, and I certainly never said anything about "reckless" eating. At the core of the bulk strategy is the understanding that in order to gain mass, you need to be at a surplus. This will invariably lead to a certain amount of fat gain while attempting to gain lean muscle through resistance training. I fully understand the concept. I am trying to look a little deeper into things and wonder why the typically advised strategy is the one that works the fastest. A bulk typically implies there will need to be a cut at the end of it. Where is the line between a "slow bulk" and a recomp? Aren't we really just talking about the same thing? Assuming that we are all healthy and all understand nutrition, mass gaining is really about two things: 1) the innate feeling of accomplishment we all get from seeing the results of hard work, and 2) vanity. It's feels good to look good. That being said, I just personally prescribe to a slower program that keeps me looking the way I want to look 365 days a year without having to worry about cycles, timing, stuffing food down at the end of the day, and not fitting in clothes. Not mention, there are a lot of guys at the gym on what I call the "perpetual bulk", wherein a bulk/cut with good intentions never really got to the cut part. My lifestyle prevents this potential struggle as well. I'm just raising this because I much less frequently read advice that prescribes this method that has worked very well for me and I'm sure countless others.0
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1. We are a society that demands immediate gratification....whether it be losing or gaining.
- I'm just as guilty of this as the next person. I bust my *kitten* in the gym and I expect to see results. As an intermediate lifter my "gains" have slowed down considerably and it sucks but it's reality.
- Newbie gains are great but they are a false expectation of what the future has to hold.... Most people are now conditioned to thinking this should be the norm going forward, which just isn't true.
2. The equation for losing weight (ideally fat) is simple..... CI < CO.
3. The equation for gaining muscle and not fat is not as simple as CICO.
- Are calories king when gaining weight? Yes, however I'd say the vast majority here in the gaining weight section aren't looking to just gain weight to say we put on weight. We are looking to put on muscle.
- Your body does what it wants and it's a "game" to try and manipulate it into doing what you want it to do.
- If you're not strength training consistently good luck with gaining any noticeable amount of muscle
- Your body is being put under stress in both situations whether gaining or losing. Hormonal changes occur and your body's natural tendency under high amounts of stress is to store fat for future use.
- Finding the right MARCO split is a game for everyone too. Everyone gets hung up on what worked for them so that must be what works for everyone else. My advice use SCIENCE based FACTS as a foundation to start from! Then and only then can you start to "tweak" things to your body's adaptations over time.
- Unfortunately - I find the above point to be least followed and majority of people refer back to #1. "Well I did what SCIENCE says to do and I haven't gained anything....." - Says the person after 1 week....lol
I could go on and on about why it's much harder for the NATURAL human body to gain muscle weight as it is to simply lose body fat.
I wish they had sub-forums..... (Fat Loss & Muscle Gain.) I may be trying to speak for too many on here but I don't bust my *kitten* following long term goals to simple "gain weight" and "lose weight"
/end rant
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I'm certainly not confused about things, and I certainly never said anything about "reckless" eating. At the core of the bulk strategy is the understanding that in order to gain mass, you need to be at a surplus. This will invariably lead to a certain amount of fat gain while attempting to gain lean muscle through resistance training. I fully understand the concept. I am trying to look a little deeper into things and wonder why the typically advised strategy is the one that works the fastest. A bulk typically implies there will need to be a cut at the end of it. Where is the line between a "slow bulk" and a recomp? Aren't we really just talking about the same thing? Assuming that we are all healthy and all understand nutrition, mass gaining is really about two things: 1) the innate feeling of accomplishment we all get from seeing the results of hard work, and 2) vanity. It's feels good to look good. That being said, I just personally prescribe to a slower program that keeps me looking the way I want to look 365 days a year without having to worry about cycles, timing, stuffing food down at the end of the day, and not fitting in clothes. Not mention, there are a lot of guys at the gym on what I call the "perpetual bulk", wherein a bulk/cut with good intentions never really got to the cut part. My lifestyle prevents this potential struggle as well. I'm just raising this because I much less frequently read advice that prescribes this method that has worked very well for me and I'm sure countless others.
I already addressed this.as for taking 3 years to put on weight? good for you- most people don't have the kind of long term dedication to stick out a recomp- which is why a cut/bulk cycle gets recommended.
Success/results = motivation = more doing = more success.0 -
Two things I should mention:
1) I'm not saying its easy to do what I do. Calculating your TDEE down to the calorie is a painstaking process, as is weighing everything you eat. Not to mention it's a moving target. Unfortunately it doesn't work unless you do. I've had many weeks where I didn't gain and many where I lost. Eating approximately 250-500 calories over maintenance is much easier cognitively and psychologically.
2) A rigorous weight training program, I think, is implied for all people trying to gain muscle.0 -
Please refer to the title of my post0
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Honestly if I followed recomp from 19 years old, I probably wouldn't have done my first contest until I was 29 years old (which is when I stopped). AGING does have an affect on physical ability and metabolism. So some just can't wait that long.
Am I against the idea? Nope. Just saying that dependent on what someone's goals are (especially if you want to gain weight for a sport), recomp may take too long for results needed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Also women have a hard time putting on muscle as it is. For us a recomp may never get us to our goals. I'm 36 I'd like to look better sooner rather than later.
A slow bulk stops you spinning your wheels for weeks on end.0 -
I'm certainly not confused about things, and I certainly never said anything about "reckless" eating. At the core of the bulk strategy is the understanding that in order to gain mass, you need to be at a surplus. This will invariably lead to a certain amount of fat gain while attempting to gain lean muscle through resistance training. I fully understand the concept. I am trying to look a little deeper into things and wonder why the typically advised strategy is the one that works the fastest. A bulk typically implies there will need to be a cut at the end of it. Where is the line between a "slow bulk" and a recomp? Aren't we really just talking about the same thing?
Bulk (slow or fast): deliberately adding mass. Recomp: attempting to maintain total overall mass while increasing FFM and decreasing fat mass.Assuming that we are all healthy and all understand nutrition, mass gaining is really about two things: 1) the innate feeling of accomplishment we all get from seeing the results of hard work, and 2) vanity. It's feels good to look good.
I suspect that is true for many, but you might want to check your assumptions. Not everyone wants an "innate sense of accomplishment" and not everyone is motivated by vanity.
There's nothing wrong with recomping. And there's nothing wrong with bulk/cut cycles. Choose which best meets your goals and capabilities, and go for it. Sounds like you found what works for you!
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Three years?
Helloooooo waste of time0 -
OP - can you link us to a thread where someone recommended a fast bulk?
just the other day someone posted in the gaining forum that they wanted to gain 10 pounds in a month and 99.9% of the responses were "no, that is too fast, you really need to do that over a four months period…"
so not sure where you are getting this from...0 -
So, in the losing weight forum, one of the most valuable pieces of advice people receive is that losing weight is a slow steady process that is best achieved through a moderate deficit. People are told to not get discouraged, and that it will not happen overnight. Then, when they lose the weight and want to gain muscle people are told to hurry up and eat a bunch of donuts (while hitting their macros and calorie goal of course). Not that I am against bulking, but why not have the same approach to gaining as losing? People often say how slow recomping is. Who cares? It's really about the process isn't it? I was told 3 years ago that the only way to get big was to "eat all the foods". I didn't listen and instead decided to eat slightly above maintenance for as long as it took to get to the size I wanted to be. I have since gained about 14 lbs. and managed to keep my abs the entire time. So sure, maybe I would have gained that 14 lbs. faster if I had done a series of bulk/cuts, but why would I care. If losing weight is all about calculating ones TDEE and establishing a lifestyle and relationship with food that comfortably allows you to manipulate your composition, why is the advice on here so typically conflictive when it comes to gaining?
Unlike all the other posters I also have seen the "overinformation posts and hurray up and do it posts"
I am with you...It took me 3 years to lose sixty lbs and build my first muscles ever and I looked great and kept it all for well...forever. (that was 24 years ago)
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OP - can you link us to a thread where someone recommended a fast bulk?
just the other day someone posted in the gaining forum that they wanted to gain 10 pounds in a month and 99.9% of the responses were "no, that is too fast, you really need to do that over a four months period…"
so not sure where you are getting this from...
No one has recommended it. It's all in his head.0 -
Cortelli, not to derail the original discussion, but what other reason would someone have for busting there *kitten* in the gym besides the two I gave? And innate means there is no "want" it just is.0
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Please refer to the title of my post
I'm saying it's a waste of time because trying to nail down an exact TDEE calorie number is impossible. You said so yourself- it's a RANGE. So it's LITERALLY an exercise in futility.
Calorie burns are so vast- and there is simply no way anyone can nail down the PRECISE calorie burn and intake the achieve EVER day.
It's LITERALLY a waste of time.
You get it close- you try it out- see your results. If you're getting somewhere- you keep going- you were RIGHT! WIN BULLS-EYE.
If you don't get anywhere- you're wrong- make an adjustment to push you in the right direction.
THAT is why doing a slow recomp for 3 years is just <le sigh> you could LITERALLY be spinning your wheels for months and never know about it. The kind of feed back you need won't be there for months- you'll just waste time.0 -
I believe I have been misinterpreted. No one (that I can refer to) has recommended doing anything faster than what is healthy and effective. And I never stated that. I would again like to raise the question as to why the typically prescribed advice is the one that requires a series of cycles as opposed to what is typically advised for losing weight which is a consistant lifelong lifestyle of caloric monitoring (or intuition if your lucky enough) to maintain a low body fat percentage while slowly gaining mass. And yes, this can take years, but again, why are we in such a hurry.0
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I have recommended a dirty bulk in the past (which may be equivalent, depending on what we mean "fast").
For certain situations a dirty bulk makes sense. For example, I can see it making total sense for a very lean, muscularly relatively underdeveloped young man in prime muscle-building ages. May make a lot more sense to add mass quickly at the expense of adding more fat depending on the individuals' goals.
For my first bulk, I did a somewhat "dirty" bulk as an older male. I wanted to get a sense of my genetic capability, as a 44 year old, to add LBM and preferred to try and maximize that even if it meant adding more fat. Did the best I could to get semi-accurate LBM / BF readings via hydro pre and post; got an idea of what I might be capable of. Subsequent bulks I do clean with more confidence that I am not shortchanging LBM growth, or only doing so to a minimum.
Really - the whole range of options (maintenance; recomp; clean bulk; dirty bulk; etc.) will likely have their places for differeing individuals with differing goals and capabilities.0 -
Cortelli, not to derail the original discussion, but what other reason would someone have for busting there *kitten* in the gym besides the two I gave? And innate means there is no "want" it just is.
some people work out just to check a box- nothing wrong with it- being said-most people in this subforum are not those people.0 -
Cortelli, not to derail the original discussion, but what other reason would someone have for busting there *kitten* in the gym besides the two I gave? And innate means there is no "want" it just is.
Seriously - there is a universe of reasons. Competition with a friend? An important component of one's job / profession? Just enjoy working out? Way to spend quality time with a partner? Primary method of exercise or stress relief? Want to be stronger? Want to be strong enough to enslave humanity? I will stop here, but there all all sorts of reasons for all sorts of different people with all sorts of different needs and wants.
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I'm certainly not confused about things, and I certainly never said anything about "reckless" eating. At the core of the bulk strategy is the understanding that in order to gain mass, you need to be at a surplus. This will invariably lead to a certain amount of fat gain while attempting to gain lean muscle through resistance training. I fully understand the concept. I am trying to look a little deeper into things and wonder why the typically advised strategy is the one that works the fastest. A bulk typically implies there will need to be a cut at the end of it. Where is the line between a "slow bulk" and a recomp? Aren't we really just talking about the same thing? Assuming that we are all healthy and all understand nutrition, mass gaining is really about two things: 1) the innate feeling of accomplishment we all get from seeing the results of hard work, and 2) vanity. It's feels good to look good. That being said, I just personally prescribe to a slower program that keeps me looking the way I want to look 365 days a year without having to worry about cycles, timing, stuffing food down at the end of the day, and not fitting in clothes. Not mention, there are a lot of guys at the gym on what I call the "perpetual bulk", wherein a bulk/cut with good intentions never really got to the cut part. My lifestyle prevents this potential struggle as well. I'm just raising this because I much less frequently read advice that prescribes this method that has worked very well for me and I'm sure countless others.
It depends on what your goals are...if you need/want to put on muscle for competition (and I'm not just talking about body building or power lifting) the most efficient way to do this would be with a bulk cycle...it is not the same thing as a re-comp. I did my bulk to 1) efficiently and effectively improve my Olympic Lifts and bust through some plateaus; and 2) to help me improve in some other fitness areas in the most efficient and effective way possible. Having done 1.5 years of a re-comp, I really don't want to wait another 5 years to be remotely competitive on the cyclocross track...
I'm glad you enjoyed your re-comp...but you're acting like bulking is some kind of negative thing...most people who do it do it for very specific reasons and aren't worried about the cycles and what not...what don't you get about that?0 -
Well said. I concur.0
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As previously mentioned, I don't see where anyone is being told to bulk fast or recklessly. I think deciding to bulk or recomp depends on your goals. For me, bulking was the way to go and I had fantastic results. One of the best decisions I ever made. People come on the gaining weight forum here, with the goal to... gain. Then, they are given advice and recommendations to achieve those goals. I don't see where anyone said bulk/cut is superior to recomp.0
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Cortelli, not to derail the original discussion, but what other reason would someone have for busting there *kitten* in the gym besides the two I gave? And innate means there is no "want" it just is.
Seriously - there is a universe of reasons. Competition with a friend? An important component of one's job / profession? Just enjoy working out? Way to spend quality time with a partner? Primary method of exercise or stress relief? Want to be stronger? Want to be strong enough to enslave humanity? I will stop here, but there all all sorts of reasons for all sorts of different people with all sorts of different needs and wants.
All of those still boil down to 1 of my 2 reasons (besides the enslaving humanity).
Why are you competing with friend to get bigger? Vanity
Why are you choosing to work out with your partner? Vanity
Stress relief? Building muscle doesn't relieve stress, exercise does. We're talking mass here not exercise
Besides athlete, what profession requires being jacked? Strong, yes, healthy, yes, fit, yes. But that's not what we're talking about is it?0 -
This discussion has been closed.
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