Inflammation, A Hopefully Constructive Discussion
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enterdanger wrote: »Not sure for others, but I consider inflamation as swelling and hot to the touch or red. Although, I would say my left ankle joint is inflamed. It has swelling but feels so cold. I'm kind of a hypochondriac so I try to stay of Dr. Google. Pretty sure it's from the healing stress fractures I have in that leg. I don't think I've ever had systemic inflammation. Not sure what that is.
That swelling and redness is often acute localized inflammation associated with trauma, infection, etc. Think of it as a localized response to signals of "hey, there is something wrong here". Chronic and systemic inflammation is more when that signaling has gone haywire and is "on" all the time and everywhere. Redness and fever might not be present. For example, asthma is an allergic response. It leads directly to localized and often systemic allergic inflammatory response - usually without redness.
That tissue oedema (swelling) is an inflammatory response - it helps heal the tissue in your ankle.0 -
I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.0 -
I have a chronic low level kind of inflammation related to my gluten allergy, which my endo thinks also triggered my Hashimoto's. For me, trying to get the inflammation under control is key in treating both of those conditions. I usually feel the inflammation as fatigue, sometimes nerve pain (gluten attacks the nerves in my hands, lucky me), bloating, extreme muscle tightness.
I also get hit with a heavy fatigue with pollen allergies in the spring. No runny noses or typical allergy symptoms, but I practically become narcoleptic. The problem I've had, and im not sure if this is typical with other people or not, but I have a hard time differentiating my symptoms of inflammation from that of 'normal', as I've kind of gotten used to it. It's only when I stop doing something (like eating gluten and sugar) that I realize how much better I feel.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
Yes, everyone can be different. My personal experience (and I won't go into full details because I'm not up for controversy today at all), is that I have always been prone to acne (which actually started right after I got chicken pox when I was 18) and keratosis pilaris on back of the arms. After years of trying this and that, someone suggested I try low-inflammation foods. I figured, what the heck. That weekend I bought all sorts of healthy foods on the recommended list. I also added fish oil and Metamucil at night. Within two days my red areas where no longer red and within seven days my issues were gone - just GONE. I thought it was a fluke. Went back to normal eating for a week....within a few days I felt heavier, just internally. Skin got a bit itchy. Went back to recommended eating.....cleared up.
So, I personally do not care WHAT it was that did it, but it helps and to this day my skin is completely clear and I remain on a natural, whole food plan (for the most part), avoid my personal inflammatory foods and take my fish oil/Metamucil every day. If it works, I continue it. Plain and simple.
That's my own experience with 'inflammation' as it pertains to my nutrition.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
How do you get on doing exercise with the pain you have? I've just bought an exercise bike which I can manage 10 minutes before my pain gets too bad, I can manage slow walks with my dog which I love. I want to start swimming again but whenever I do any kind of exercise it lands me in bed for days. Did you experience that and push through?
Really want to be more active, I try to avoid using my wheelchair unless I physically cannot weightbear0 -
Also meant to say low curbing puts me straight into flare0
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BigLifter10 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
Yes, everyone can be different. My personal experience (and I won't go into full details because I'm not up for controversy today at all), is that I have always been prone to acne (which actually started right after I got chicken pox when I was 18) and keratosis pilaris on back of the arms. After years of trying this and that, someone suggested I try low-inflammation foods. I figured, what the heck. That weekend I bought all sorts of healthy foods on the recommended list. I also added fish oil and Metamucil at night. Within two days my red areas where no longer red and within seven days my issues were gone - just GONE. I thought it was a fluke. Went back to normal eating for a week....within a few days I felt heavier, just internally. Skin got a bit itchy. Went back to recommended eating.....cleared up.
So, I personally do not care WHAT it was that did it, but it helps and to this day my skin is completely clear and I remain on a natural, whole food plan (for the most part), avoid my personal inflammatory foods and take my fish oil/Metamucil every day. If it works, I continue it. Plain and simple.
That's my own experience with 'inflammation' as it pertains to my nutrition.
You said "personal inflammatory foods"... did you do a sort of elimination style thing, or are you still eating from the list of recommended foods only?
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mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
How do you get on doing exercise with the pain you have? I've just bought an exercise bike which I can manage 10 minutes before my pain gets too bad, I can manage slow walks with my dog which I love. I want to start swimming again but whenever I do any kind of exercise it lands me in bed for days. Did you experience that and push through?
Really want to be more active, I try to avoid using my wheelchair unless I physically cannot weightbear
I started out walking with a cane! I walked for 10 minutes the first day. I kept walking. I walked through the pain. I just kept walking.
I just had the flu so my speed and incline are back down, but I was up to a 3.5 incline and 3.4 speed on the treadmill. I also do strength training 2-3 times a week. It's not very fast walking, but my legs are short, and I'm older. I don't walk for too long, or my SI joints and the joints in my feet act up. 40 minutes is my maximum. Sometimes, I work in faster intervals or intervals at a steeper incline.
I used to do the bike, but my knees can't handle it any more. My rheumy offered me injections the last time I was there, and I wasn't really keen on the idea.
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That's really fantastic for someone with health problems. I'm going to increase my walking again, just come out of flare up so gotta start from scratch again building it up0
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Also meant to say low curbing puts me straight into flare
If I cut my carbs too low, my fatigue levels shoot through the roof. If I eat too many, I feel sluggish as well. I tend to eat a moderate amount.
The fatigue from PsA is probably more difficult for me to manage than the pain.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »BigLifter10 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.
I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.
Yes, everyone can be different. My personal experience (and I won't go into full details because I'm not up for controversy today at all), is that I have always been prone to acne (which actually started right after I got chicken pox when I was 18) and keratosis pilaris on back of the arms. After years of trying this and that, someone suggested I try low-inflammation foods. I figured, what the heck. That weekend I bought all sorts of healthy foods on the recommended list. I also added fish oil and Metamucil at night. Within two days my red areas where no longer red and within seven days my issues were gone - just GONE. I thought it was a fluke. Went back to normal eating for a week....within a few days I felt heavier, just internally. Skin got a bit itchy. Went back to recommended eating.....cleared up.
So, I personally do not care WHAT it was that did it, but it helps and to this day my skin is completely clear and I remain on a natural, whole food plan (for the most part), avoid my personal inflammatory foods and take my fish oil/Metamucil every day. If it works, I continue it. Plain and simple.
That's my own experience with 'inflammation' as it pertains to my nutrition.
You said "personal inflammatory foods"... did you do a sort of elimination style thing, or are you still eating from the list of recommended foods only?
I am eating from the list, BUT....I don't rule anything out unless they have caused an issue for me. For a stark example (and it's junk food, but still it pertains): I absolutely LOVE Oreos. LOVE THEM. Everything about them is awesome. However. I can eat two and not have any weird outcome. If I eat 3, 4 or more....then I can guarantee that even now I will spend the next week trying to overcome large breakout spots (several) on my face. They are weird though...it is like the 'inside' of the Oreos (the double-stuff) is trying to get out of my pores. It's gross. It happens EVERY time. Just one example though. So, I just don't eat them. If I stay with what works, I have no complaints with my skin.
So, I look at it more as I try to rule things "IN" rather than out. Although it works both ways. The nice thing is that if I eat something that affects me negatively, I can stick to my ol' trusty go-to's to clear up. I still do this on occasion, BUT, it took me three years to go through pretty much everything that is even remotely on my 'eat list'. I can't do Noni wraps either. But I'm okay with that.
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mamapeach910 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »I have had low grade systemic inflammation (of a different level than what you see) related to allergies and possibly a few other things. The results have been a gout attack, systemic bloating resulting in overnight weight gain of several kilos, exercise induced inflammation, and joint pain and stiffness.
Inflammation may occur without any redness and just a light level of bloatiness - it's really quite complex.
And sometimes it's a very positive response. Inflammatory response to exercise is believed to be a normal and major part of muscle synthesis, for example. For this reason, anti-inflammatory treatments (from AINS drugs, certain steroids, anti-leukotrienes) lead to reduced tissue development (both muscle and bone via osteocytes depression).
In IBS, for example, inflammation may very well be present,and yet localized and completely invisible.
Something I personally rarely feel but which may occur in others includes skin sensitivity, lymph node swelling, flu like symptoms.
I'm glad you're in this discussion, because you're very knowledgeable on these things.
What would you say regarding inflammation and diet as a "cure"? That it would depend on the source of the inflammation whether it would be effective?
Well, it really does matter, you are right that that it's source dependent. When a food or foods cause an immune response then removing that food results in less inflammation and less issues.
Two concrete examples: my undergrad mentor (20 years ago) and myself. We both have food allergies - his are mayor/mine are still minor. When I was in college we found him bleeding in the basement of the university due to damage from his allergies and the related immune response. Shorten the story: his "cure" was an elimination diet that helped manage his IBS and which allowed him to eat more or less normally, eventually - if he kept away from a bunch of stuff such as tomatoes, certain breads, certain green vegetables. Me? I have a true allergy to something in milk products. It's low grade and I manage by ignoring the perma-sniffles and joint stiffness I get. I love yogurt and cheese too much. But when I take breaks I literally drop 3-4 kgs in a few days and get less muscle soreness and swelling. I take a pill if it's too much of a bother.
And honestly I know that since that swelling is present in the background it affects my performance in running (joint pain) or optimal results from strength training - the chronic inflammation apparently masks the induced response for hypertrophy. I really should stop with the yogurt, quark and cheese. Go clean, lol. Not likely.
Honestly, I'm getting old enough to worry that the morning stiffness in my legs and feet will result in joint issues and I should manage the dietary components better.
On one side you have IBS, gluten allergies, dye allergies (all which have an inflammatory element) which are often very well managed by dietary changes and then there are the arthritis related diseases that may or may not be influenced by diet. And the whole gut bacteria stuff....
The problem with figuring out what works in terms of improved quality of life is that it sometimes takes weeks to see a result in an elimination diet and, depending on sensitivity, something minor might mask an improvement. And there is a lot of woo out there. Here is a good, if wishy-washy position on current thinking (oh, look, no wonder we agree)
http://www.hopkinsarthritis.org/patient-corner/disease-management/rheumatoid-arthrtis-nutrition/
Btw - coffee is an immune stimulant. Not that you should stop it.
Have you ever gone through a 2-3 week period of eliminating everything (rice and chicken) and seeing if that improves how you feel - then adding slowly things back? See that link.0 -
Yes even though the pain is pretty rotten, it's the fatigue that gets me down the most. At least if I'm in pain I can still play with my little boy, when I'm fatigued I just have to take to bed!0
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Inflammation in the body can lead to disease. It can happen by eating the wrong foods, toxins, etc. There is a book a doctor recommended to me about healing from inflammation. Here is the info...https://juliedaniluk.com/books/meals-that-heal-inflammation-by-julie-daniluk.html0
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I'm a type 1 diabetic, so obvious metabolic stuff. While I don't eat a lot of sugar, I have inflammation issues. I mainly have issues with joints and tendonitis.0
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »enterdanger wrote: »Not sure for others, but I consider inflamation as swelling and hot to the touch or red. Although, I would say my left ankle joint is inflamed. It has swelling but feels so cold. I'm kind of a hypochondriac so I try to stay of Dr. Google. Pretty sure it's from the healing stress fractures I have in that leg. I don't think I've ever had systemic inflammation. Not sure what that is.
That swelling and redness is often acute localized inflammation associated with trauma, infection, etc. Think of it as a localized response to signals of "hey, there is something wrong here". Chronic and systemic inflammation is more when that signaling has gone haywire and is "on" all the time and everywhere. Redness and fever might not be present. For example, asthma is an allergic response. It leads directly to localized and often systemic allergic inflammatory response - usually without redness.
That tissue oedema (swelling) is an inflammatory response - it helps heal the tissue in your ankle.
Thanks for explaining. I do have mild asthma too. Had it awful as a kid. Now I only get it once or twice a year. I've read a bunch of studies that say dairy can impact inflammation, but I love cheese so I ignored them. I do try to limit wheat, rye, peanut, soy and almonds since they make me bloated and came back with reactions on my last allergy test. I still eat them, but only in small amounts or I pay the price.
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My lower back acts up on me and stops me in* my tracks instantly. I can't* move or anything and have to get an ice pack or my anti-inflammatory. It was killing me this morning since i have been devasted on* the loss of my beloved pet. I decided to make a smoothie to cheer myself up and keep a light breakfast meal and added fresh pineapples with bananas, yogurt, light sugar free OJ and just like that i feel* new again. I used to habitually and religiously eat everyday raw fresh ginger* root at least 14 grams of it in the morning before anything and work forever but one day it just got worse but that was cause i was out of alignment and nipped that in the bud quickly.
I wanted to start yoga but as a chrisitan for me i stay away from eastern practices. I have my reasons and this isn't the place to go into that. Stretching* helps SO MUCH. I try to stretch my back in non yoga positions and it helps. I should be doing my exercise but, i don't. ;] its not that much just moving my knees side to side laying* on my back thats it so I'm just like-who has time for that? i need to get into pilates! My issue here that i haven't* yet and idk why is that i want to lose weight and one can't easily as much*** with pilates but the intensity is not enough for what I'm craving. I want sweat to pour off me and um pilates won't. It will help my back though:] Idk maybe i need to do pilates for 5 hours then i can get weight loss fromm it?hah i want to lift but again my lower core is hit! I have little* muscle and the elliptical is helping a little but until i build it up through core workouts i aint lifting a finger! :] Ginger root and pineapple will be the main ingredients me thinks for my diet now that summer is moving in. So healthy and refreshing for you. If you can get into yoga-by all means go for it. You can make your own decision though. I hope you find something new that will work for you though:]
*=corrected typos0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »I have had low grade systemic inflammation (of a different level than what you see) related to allergies and possibly a few other things. The results have been a gout attack, systemic bloating resulting in overnight weight gain of several kilos, exercise induced inflammation, and joint pain and stiffness.
Inflammation may occur without any redness and just a light level of bloatiness - it's really quite complex.
And sometimes it's a very positive response. Inflammatory response to exercise is believed to be a normal and major part of muscle synthesis, for example. For this reason, anti-inflammatory treatments (from AINS drugs, certain steroids, anti-leukotrienes) lead to reduced tissue development (both muscle and bone via osteocytes depression).
In IBS, for example, inflammation may very well be present,and yet localized and completely invisible.
Something I personally rarely feel but which may occur in others includes skin sensitivity, lymph node swelling, flu like symptoms.
I'm glad you're in this discussion, because you're very knowledgeable on these things.
What would you say regarding inflammation and diet as a "cure"? That it would depend on the source of the inflammation whether it would be effective?
<snip>
Honestly, I'm getting old enough to worry that the morning stiffness in my legs and feet will result in joint issues and I should manage the dietary components better.
On one side you have IBS, gluten allergies, dye allergies (all which have an inflammatory element) which are often very well managed by dietary changes and then there are the arthritis related diseases that may or may not be influenced by diet. And the whole gut bacteria stuff....
The problem with figuring out what works in terms of improved quality of life is that it sometimes takes weeks to see a result in an elimination diet and, depending on sensitivity, something minor might mask an improvement. And there is a lot of woo out there. Here is a good, if wishy-washy position on current thinking (oh, look, no wonder we agree)
http://www.hopkinsarthritis.org/patient-corner/disease-management/rheumatoid-arthrtis-nutrition/
Btw - coffee is an immune stimulant. Not that you should stop it.
Have you ever gone through a 2-3 week period of eliminating everything (rice and chicken) and seeing if that improves how you feel - then adding slowly things back? See that link.
That was a good read indeed. I'm going to keep on keeping on.
Thanks for linking it, and your thoughts. I do know, thanks to celiac disease, about the absolute need to eliminate certain foods for certain things.
Thanks for mentioning dye allergies also. You've given me some food for thought regarding my son and now I'm wondering about his diagnosis of IBS and if it was just the dyes all along. We sort of dealt with both issues at the same time.
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I'm intrigued with those who are speaking of fatigue. I'm working with my doctors to see why I HAVE to sleep 9+ hours a night, and still may be fatigued in the day. So far? Ain't nuthin' wrong w/ me! So later I'll look at some of the links, and see what else comes out here. Thanks!!!!0
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Thanks for posting this thread. I plan to read some of the links later.
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