Inflammation, A Hopefully Constructive Discussion

mamapeach910 wrote: »

EvgeniZyntx wrote: »

I have had low grade systemic inflammation (of a different level than what you see) related to allergies and possibly a few other things. The results have been a gout attack, systemic bloating resulting in overnight weight gain of several kilos, exercise induced inflammation, and joint pain and stiffness.

Inflammation may occur without any redness and just a light level of bloatiness - it's really quite complex.

And sometimes it's a very positive response. Inflammatory response to exercise is believed to be a normal and major part of muscle synthesis, for example. For this reason, anti-inflammatory treatments (from AINS drugs, certain steroids, anti-leukotrienes) lead to reduced tissue development (both muscle and bone via osteocytes depression).

In IBS, for example, inflammation may very well be present,and yet localized and completely invisible.

Something I personally rarely feel but which may occur in others includes skin sensitivity, lymph node swelling, flu like symptoms.

I'm glad you're in this discussion, because you're very knowledgeable on these things.

What would you say regarding inflammation and diet as a "cure"? That it would depend on the source of the inflammation whether it would be effective?

Well, it really does matter, you are right that that it's source dependent. When a food or foods cause an immune response then removing that food results in less inflammation and less issues.

Two concrete examples: my undergrad mentor (20 years ago) and myself. We both have food allergies - his are mayor/mine are still minor. When I was in college we found him bleeding in the basement of the university due to damage from his allergies and the related immune response. Shorten the story: his "cure" was an elimination diet that helped manage his IBS and which allowed him to eat more or less normally, eventually - if he kept away from a bunch of stuff such as tomatoes, certain breads, certain green vegetables. Me? I have a true allergy to something in milk products. It's low grade and I manage by ignoring the perma-sniffles and joint stiffness I get. I love yogurt and cheese too much. But when I take breaks I literally drop 3-4 kgs in a few days and get less muscle soreness and swelling. I take a pill if it's too much of a bother.

And honestly I know that since that swelling is present in the background it affects my performance in running (joint pain) or optimal results from strength training - the chronic inflammation apparently masks the induced response for hypertrophy. I really should stop with the yogurt, quark and cheese. Go clean, lol. Not likely.

Honestly, I'm getting old enough to worry that the morning stiffness in my legs and feet will result in joint issues and I should manage the dietary components better.

On one side you have IBS, gluten allergies, dye allergies (all which have an inflammatory element) which are often very well managed by dietary changes and then there are the arthritis related diseases that may or may not be influenced by diet. And the whole gut bacteria stuff....

The problem with figuring out what works in terms of improved quality of life is that it sometimes takes weeks to see a result in an elimination diet and, depending on sensitivity, something minor might mask an improvement. And there is a lot of woo out there. Here is a good, if wishy-washy position on current thinking (oh, look, no wonder we agree)
http://www.hopkinsarthritis.org/patient-corner/disease-management/rheumatoid-arthrtis-nutrition/


Btw - coffee is an immune stimulant. Not that you should stop it.

Have you ever gone through a 2-3 week period of eliminating everything (rice and chicken) and seeing if that improves how you feel - then adding slowly things back? See that link.

Inflammation in the body can lead to disease. It can happen by eating the wrong foods, toxins, etc. There is a book a doctor recommended to me about healing from inflammation. Here is the info...https://juliedaniluk.com/books/meals-that-heal-inflammation-by-julie-daniluk.html

EvgeniZyntx wrote: »

enterdanger wrote: »

Not sure for others, but I consider inflamation as swelling and hot to the touch or red. Although, I would say my left ankle joint is inflamed. It has swelling but feels so cold. I'm kind of a hypochondriac so I try to stay of Dr. Google. Pretty sure it's from the healing stress fractures I have in that leg. I don't think I've ever had systemic inflammation. Not sure what that is.

That swelling and redness is often acute localized inflammation associated with trauma, infection, etc. Think of it as a localized response to signals of "hey, there is something wrong here". Chronic and systemic inflammation is more when that signaling has gone haywire and is "on" all the time and everywhere. Redness and fever might not be present. For example, asthma is an allergic response. It leads directly to localized and often systemic allergic inflammatory response - usually without redness.

That tissue oedema (swelling) is an inflammatory response - it helps heal the tissue in your ankle.

Thanks for explaining. I do have mild asthma too. Had it awful as a kid. Now I only get it once or twice a year. I've read a bunch of studies that say dairy can impact inflammation, but I love cheese so I ignored them. I do try to limit wheat, rye, peanut, soy and almonds since they make me bloated and came back with reactions on my last allergy test. I still eat them, but only in small amounts or I pay the price.

Thanks for posting this thread. I plan to read some of the links later.

EVERYONE is different is the most true statement that can be made. 2 people with the same condition, given the same medication can have 2 different results. There is a reason that drug companies try to do large scale studies and comparison.

Many of the studies about food and inflammation are not broad enough. The study groups weren't large enough and the population often not controlled. If a drug company does a clinical trial and someone in the trial dies, it must be reported as death, even if the person was hit by a bus. The reason for the death is investigated completely and could be considered of no impact to the study. Most food studies or studies on herbs do have as stringent rules. Not saying they don't have value, but look at studies and check the rules before you believe it completely. Think about how the rules have changed about what is healthy and what is not just over the last 20 years. Don't eat eggs, too much cholesterol, put eggs back in your diet they have good cholesterol, etc.

I have IBS as well as Hashimoto's syndrome. With the IBS, eating a healthy diet works best for me. too much junk or white flour causes me issues. Not enough fiber is a total problem. Peppermint is a life saver for me. However, others with IBS can't do peppermint and find Chamomile to work, my tummy doesn't like chamomile. I need a diet that is extremely high in fiber to keep myself from issues.

For the Hashimoto's I take medication that keeps it under control. So far I have not developed other problems from the syndrome which can happen. Such as Rhuemetoid arthritis. I do have OsteoArthritis, which is controlled by Osteo Biflex, which works awesome for me, but others i know not so much.

There are a lot of studies out there that are finding that elimination of food can help ease issues. Many people go straight to vegan and that has its own problems as well (worked great for my daughter for her tummy, but she developed more allergies). The suggestion is to choose one food and eliminate it from your diet for 3 to 4 weeks, see if it helps. If not you can put it back and try something else. So choose one item at time, Milk, Beef, chicken, gluten, processed sugar, etc. By removing one at a time you can find out where your sensitivity may lie. Eliminating too much at once and you might have trouble pin pointing the problem.

The other way is to go extreme, eliminate all the things you think are an irritant, then add one back at a time. See if any give you problems. For example, I eliminate, Gluten and go vegan. I feel great. Lets see what happens when I put gluten back in my diet, 2 weeks, still feel great. I miss eggs, add that back in, I feel great OK, Milk, damn I feel like crap, no more milk, etc....

FYI, men, women and children actually react totally differently from each other. So what might work for the same problem in a man, may not work for a woman or a child.

mamapeach910 wrote: »

njitaliana wrote: »

Mamapeach, I have fibromyalgia, which is an inflammatory illness. Any time I have any sort of illness or procedure on top of it, more inflammation occurs, so I get more sick than one typically would. For instance, I catch a cold or have a colonoscopy and end up unable to function for a while (could be a couple days; could be a couple weeks; could even be a couple months). The inflammation shows up as pain everywhere, total exhaustion, brain fog where I can't remember what to call anyone or anything, and weakness. My doctor recommended that I do an anti-inflammation diet, but I haven't done so. Maybe when I am at goal, I might do that. Right now, it's enough to just be trying to lose weight.

I also have fibro. I've eaten paleo, low carb (Atkins, Sugar Busters)... they did nothing to change things. Honestly the only thing that actually helps is to regularly exercise and to practice good sleep hygiene--keep regular sleep hours, don't nap too long, stuff like that.

I don't have fibro, but I do have the arthritis and inflammation issue. I've found the same thing as you have about exercise which is to say that it is the only thing that helps me, especially the stretching!

I'm so glad that you started this thread though because I'm really not that well informed. I knew a little bit about inflammation related food issues. I had a friend that had Crohn's Disease and learning about that with her was very informative... but I get leery about other "anti-inflammatory" programs because of the "woo" factor.

This is an interesting article on inflammation. Unfortunately, he does not cite his sources.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-tell-if-youre-inflamed-objective-and-subjective-inflammatory-markers/#axzz3YtgWDG1a

One of the things that struck me is the following statement:

"Ultimately, though? It comes down to the simple question you must ask yourself: how do you feel?

I mean, this seems like an obvious marker, but a lot of people ignore it in pursuit of numbers. If you feel run down, lethargic, unhappy, your workouts are suffering, you struggle to get out of bed, you’re putting on a little extra weight around the waist, sex isn’t as interesting, etc., etc., etc., you may be suffering from some manner of systemic, low-grade inflammation. Conversely, if you’re full of energy, generally pleased and/or content with life, killing it in the gym, bounding out of bed, lean as ever or on your way there, and your sex drive is powerful and age appropriate, you’re probably good.

And really, isn’t that the most important health marker of all?"

This is sort of what caused all the controversy yesterday. As many people here have answered they have seen an improvement or worsening of certain medical conditions with dietary changes. Those people have seen those changes in themselves and that is all that matters for them.

I think that systemic inflammation is a complex issue and that the medical community is still learning a lot about it. I think one of the problems with trying to pin it down to one set of symptoms is that there isn't just one set of symptoms that can indicate systemic inflammation. It feels different to different people. One person might have a flare up of arthritis. Another might have an IBS episode. A third might have fibromyalgia and on and on.

It can be difficult to pin down because whatever food affects one person might not affect the next person the same way.

BigLifter10 wrote: »

mamapeach910 wrote: »

I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.

I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.

Yes, everyone can be different. My personal experience (and I won't go into full details because I'm not up for controversy today at all), is that I have always been prone to acne (which actually started right after I got chicken pox when I was 18) and keratosis pilaris on back of the arms. After years of trying this and that, someone suggested I try low-inflammation foods. I figured, what the heck. That weekend I bought all sorts of healthy foods on the recommended list. I also added fish oil and Metamucil at night. Within two days my red areas where no longer red and within seven days my issues were gone - just GONE. I thought it was a fluke. Went back to normal eating for a week....within a few days I felt heavier, just internally. Skin got a bit itchy. Went back to recommended eating.....cleared up.

So, I personally do not care WHAT it was that did it, but it helps and to this day my skin is completely clear and I remain on a natural, whole food plan (for the most part), avoid my personal inflammatory foods and take my fish oil/Metamucil every day. If it works, I continue it. Plain and simple.

That's my own experience with 'inflammation' as it pertains to my nutrition.

This has been my experience as well, in addition to anxiety, bloating, and gas. I read a book by Dr. Mark Hyman, and decided to try an elimination diet. After reintroducing foods, I have found that I cannot tolerate dairy and peanuts. I have switched to almond milk and almond butter and feel better than I have in years. I have lost weight almost effortlessly, my skin is clear, and my anxiety levels have gone down significantly. This is not a one size fits all approach though. You need to find what are your particular trigger foods.

mamapeach910 wrote: »

@lporter229, what immunosuppressant are you on? I'm on Humira.

I am on Remicade. I also take Imuran (aziothioprine).

mamapeach910 wrote: »

I'll state it in thread that I've tried dietary approaches to try to better fibromyalgia symptoms and, while doing that, my psoriatic arthritis actually developed while I was low carbing. So, they don't work for me. As I stated earlier, the only real results I've been able to effect have been through exercise.

I'm not here to argue with people, though, just to hear other's experience and symptoms.

I find this very interesting and I’m glad you brought it up. I’ve had chronic back pain for many years now, as well as occasional knee pain and IT band soreness, and I call that inflammation, although doctors haven’t diagnosed it as anything. It usually manifests as stiffness in some areas (upper back), fairly acute pain in others (lower back), or severe muscular soreness (IT band).

Because anti-inflammatories didn’t help much, I tried a severely restricted diet with a caloric deficit for a while. I cut out all bread, most starches, meat, sugar (at least of the added variety). I guess it was a low carb vegetarian diet. I did this for 6-8 months and it did squat all, except probably cause me to lose some muscle mass. I’m in much better shape when I lift heavy weights, get deep tissue massage (sometimes bruise-inducingly painful), foam roll daily, and stretch a lot. Running has been rough for me lately, so I might switch to the rowing machine again. Lower impact, but still gets the blood flowing.

Major props on your persistence and dedication. I had a good friend with fibro and she really benefitted from deep tissue massage and foam rolling. I hope you find your happy place

I'm curious about the inflammation connection too. I've had bouts of bursitis for years, and I get funny lumps under my skin that my doctor-sister describes as an inflammatory response. I'm still uncertain how certain foods would trigger these reactions however. I bet stress and the cortisol response is a factor.

Here's an interesting discovery about the source of Fibromyalgia pain.

Gianfranco_R wrote: »

mamapeach910 wrote: »

TheSingingMom wrote: »

This is an interesting article on inflammation. Unfortunately, he does not cite his sources.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-tell-if-youre-inflamed-objective-and-subjective-inflammatory-markers/#axzz3YtgWDG1a

One of the things that struck me is the following statement:

"Ultimately, though? It comes down to the simple question you must ask yourself: how do you feel?

I mean, this seems like an obvious marker, but a lot of people ignore it in pursuit of numbers. If you feel run down, lethargic, unhappy, your workouts are suffering, you struggle to get out of bed, you’re putting on a little extra weight around the waist, sex isn’t as interesting, etc., etc., etc., you may be suffering from some manner of systemic, low-grade inflammation. Conversely, if you’re full of energy, generally pleased and/or content with life, killing it in the gym, bounding out of bed, lean as ever or on your way there, and your sex drive is powerful and age appropriate, you’re probably good.

And really, isn’t that the most important health marker of all?"

This is sort of what caused all the controversy yesterday. As many people here have answered they have seen an improvement or worsening of certain medical conditions with dietary changes. Those people have seen those changes in themselves and that is all that matters for them.

I think that systemic inflammation is a complex issue and that the medical community is still learning a lot about it. I think one of the problems with trying to pin it down to one set of symptoms is that there isn't just one set of symptoms that can indicate systemic inflammation. It feels different to different people. One person might have a flare up of arthritis. Another might have an IBS episode. A third might have fibromyalgia and on and on.

It can be difficult to pin down because whatever food affects one person might not affect the next person the same way.

No, I think you missed the point entirely.

Inflammation is a very broad term.

For some, it's connected with a condition that will pass when they lose weight.

For some, it's connected with a condition that will be eliminated when they eliminated a food that's causing an allergic reaction.

For some, it's connected to a life-long disease that's progressive and needs to be managed.

For the last category, the good-day/bad-day "feels" arbiter is just bro-science at its finest.

If anything, in this thread I've learned that "inflammation" is different things for different people and you can't say any one thing about it.

Actually systemic inflammation is something that can be measured (there are some markers that identify it). And yes, there are studies that prove a connection between diet and inflammation.
For instance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25437888

First, I’m not sure why you’re saying this like the OP isn’t aware of it.

Anyway, it’s worth pointing out that the “diet quality” index in this study consisted of six components: saturated fatty acids, polyunsaturated fatty acids, fish and shellfish, dietary fibre, fruit and vegetables, and sucrose.

Specifically, the cut-offs were SFA ≤14 %E (non-alcohol energy percentage), PUFA between 5 and 10%E, fish and shellfish ≥300 g/week, dietary fibre between 2.4 and 3.6 g/MJ, fruit and vegetables ≥ 400 g/day and sucrose ≤ 10%E. As such, eating less saturated/polyunsaturated fatty acids and sucrose but more fruit and vegetables and fish/shellfish and a certain amount of dietary fibre is what would be considered a high-quality diet.

I find it interesting that they don’t consider dairy or gluten, which are often brought up as culprits of inflammation.