gained 6 pounds of muscle, lost 2 pounds fat....help with nutrition and fat loss...
Replies
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
No. Just no. You don't grasp it at all. You're using definitions that have nothing to do with the context.DeguelloTex wrote: »
If you understood the difference between "precise" and "accurate" you'd be able to understand the implications of what he wrote.galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »avedaprincess wrote: »I've been working with a personal trainer for 3 months now, lifting heavy 3x/week. We did measurements and calculations today...I'm still cubbies than I want to be, but I've gained 6 pounds of muscle, and lost 2 pounds of fat (according to the head trainer who did my calculations). My question is ...what can I do to lost more fat? I'm really getting discouraged. I am still in an 8-10 clothing size and will be covering up this summer at the lake if I can't get my weight under control. I've been eating 1200-1300 cals per day...I'm short, and would like to be wearing a size 6 again...any advice?
With all due respect, there are several things in your post that don't quite make sense.
Muscle gain is next to impossible when eating at a deficit......you can't make something out of nothing.
And since you are exercising and working with a PT there also will be no newbie gains, which are minimal anyway.
Even if you have gained some muscle, there is no way that it is six pounds in three month, because the hormonal make-up of women just makes this impossible.
It is also not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, because in order to lose fat you have to eat at a deficit and in order to gain muscle you have to eat at least at a slight increase. I think what is happening is that as you are losing fat your muscles become more visible. They are muscles you always had and not new ones.
I don't quite understand what is wrong with a size 8-10 even for a short person ( I am under five feet myself ), but in order to lose fat you just have to keep eating at a deficit and exercise.
On a personal note, I would probably have another trainer check my numbers again, because no matter if he is the head trainer or not, he is maybe just telling you stuff to impress you and keep you as a customer. Maybe you'd like to check with the weight lifting group here in MFP. Many of them are very knowledgeable when it comes to lifting and diet and I am sure they will tell you pretty much the same thing.
Good Luck !
It is definitely possible, but limited to individuals new to lifting.
no it's not eating at her levels doing a little lifting (3 months worth)...using calipers to measure....please.
I am not sure where you are getting your information but you need to regroup and re-evaluate.
Wow really? My comment was directed to the very general statement of "it's not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time", it is possible. I already said that OP likely didn't gain muscle, and especially with her diet and routine. Why are you twisting my words?
How did I twist anything...you said calipers were precise...they are not.
If that comment was directed at the particular statement then make it more clear...as your statement was...it is possible...but limited to individuals new to lifting....which makes it sound like her scenario is plausible.
Calipers are precise if used correctly. If you measure the same spots in the same way every week they will give you a mm reading which will show you if there is less fat on those spots or not, and thus they will be precise. They will show a trend over time if you are loosing BF or not, but they wont necessarily be accurate like you said.
As for my comment about gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, it was in response to the general statement that it was not possible. It is possible for some people, and that comment had nothing to do with OP's current routine and whether or not she could gain muscle and lose fat while doing that routine. It was purely saying, yes, it is possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
We will have to agree to disagree on the calipers...I do not believe they are accurate for anything...human error makes is so.
You're confusing the words "Precision" and "Accuracy" they are two completely different things:
http://www.ncsu.edu/labwrite/Experimental Design/accuracyprecision.htm
I think the only thing calipers are good for are showing a trend as long as the person doing the measuring is "precise" but other than that...nope...even dexa/bod pods can be off due to hydration levels...
To your first point. That is exactly what I said.
To the second point. Dexa has nothing to do with hydration levels. Dexa measures the attenuation levels of x-rays in soft tissues and bone and is pretty accurate. Bod Pod has a pretty big error and a lot of factors that effect it, so I agree, it's not a good tool to use.
Bioimpedence scales / handhelds, definitely are affected by hydration since they measure the resistance of your body, and since water conducts much better than fat, you'll get imprecise and inaccurate readings.
Edit: I shouldn't have said "nothing to do with hydration levels" there will be a fluctuation in your fat free mass due to hydration which could affect any body fat measurement by a small percentage. This is a second order effect, and could throw off a measurement by about +/-1.5%, which is close as you can get to measuring body fat %.
If you said it shows the trend you were did not use good language to do so...as I reread what you posted and I don't see where you said you can see "trends".
And glad to see you edited your other post...
He used exactly the right language. It's your understanding that's faulty.
no it's not...
precision is defined as marked by exactness and accuracy of expression or detail, the quality, condition or fact of being exact and accurate.
accuracy is defined as correct in all details; exact
Funny how accuracy is in the definition of precise...I get precision is how reproducible measurements are but calipers are neither accurate nor precise for most people...I don't even like them for tending unless you are accurate in the measurements which most aren't.
So again my original statements stands...calipers are not precise nor accurate in 99% of situations, and let me quote here from the person I was disagreeing withYou're confusing the words "Precision" and "Accuracy" they are two completely different things:
my understanding is fine thanks...
"In the fields of science, engineering, industry, and statistics, the accuracy of a measurement system is the degree of closeness of measurements of a quantity to that quantity's true value. The precision of a measurement system, related to reproducibility and repeatability, is the degree to which repeated measurements under unchanged conditions show the same results."
Precision, in this context, has ZERO to do with accuracy. It has to do with repeatability. If you can't get that, that's on you. A thermometer that is always off by the same amount from the actual temperature isn't accurate, but it is precise. It's not that hard to see the difference.
Even though this has spiraled into an argument, I will try to deflect and say recomp as well. You can gain muscle and lose bf%. It always gets left out.
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stevencloser wrote: »
The calipers may be precise, the person doing the measuring isn't though. Measure accidentally at a little bit different place on your body than last time and you get a different reading.galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »avedaprincess wrote: »I've been working with a personal trainer for 3 months now, lifting heavy 3x/week. We did measurements and calculations today...I'm still cubbies than I want to be, but I've gained 6 pounds of muscle, and lost 2 pounds of fat (according to the head trainer who did my calculations). My question is ...what can I do to lost more fat? I'm really getting discouraged. I am still in an 8-10 clothing size and will be covering up this summer at the lake if I can't get my weight under control. I've been eating 1200-1300 cals per day...I'm short, and would like to be wearing a size 6 again...any advice?
With all due respect, there are several things in your post that don't quite make sense.
Muscle gain is next to impossible when eating at a deficit......you can't make something out of nothing.
And since you are exercising and working with a PT there also will be no newbie gains, which are minimal anyway.
Even if you have gained some muscle, there is no way that it is six pounds in three month, because the hormonal make-up of women just makes this impossible.
It is also not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, because in order to lose fat you have to eat at a deficit and in order to gain muscle you have to eat at least at a slight increase. I think what is happening is that as you are losing fat your muscles become more visible. They are muscles you always had and not new ones.
I don't quite understand what is wrong with a size 8-10 even for a short person ( I am under five feet myself ), but in order to lose fat you just have to keep eating at a deficit and exercise.
On a personal note, I would probably have another trainer check my numbers again, because no matter if he is the head trainer or not, he is maybe just telling you stuff to impress you and keep you as a customer. Maybe you'd like to check with the weight lifting group here in MFP. Many of them are very knowledgeable when it comes to lifting and diet and I am sure they will tell you pretty much the same thing.
Good Luck !
It is definitely possible, but limited to individuals new to lifting.
no it's not eating at her levels doing a little lifting (3 months worth)...using calipers to measure....please.
I am not sure where you are getting your information but you need to regroup and re-evaluate.
Wow really? My comment was directed to the very general statement of "it's not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time", it is possible. I already said that OP likely didn't gain muscle, and especially with her diet and routine. Why are you twisting my words?
How did I twist anything...you said calipers were precise...they are not.
If that comment was directed at the particular statement then make it more clear...as your statement was...it is possible...but limited to individuals new to lifting....which makes it sound like her scenario is plausible.
Calipers are precise if used correctly. If you measure the same spots in the same way every week they will give you a mm reading which will show you if there is less fat on those spots or not, and thus they will be precise. They will show a trend over time if you are loosing BF or not, but they wont necessarily be accurate like you said.
As for my comment about gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, it was in response to the general statement that it was not possible. It is possible for some people, and that comment had nothing to do with OP's current routine and whether or not she could gain muscle and lose fat while doing that routine. It was purely saying, yes, it is possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
We will have to agree to disagree on the calipers...I do not believe they are accurate for anything...human error makes is so.
You're confusing the words "Precision" and "Accuracy" they are two completely different things:
http://www.ncsu.edu/labwrite/Experimental Design/accuracyprecision.htm
I think the only thing calipers are good for are showing a trend as long as the person doing the measuring is "precise" but other than that...nope...even dexa/bod pods can be off due to hydration levels...
To your first point. That is exactly what I said.
To the second point. Dexa has nothing to do with hydration levels. Dexa measures the attenuation levels of x-rays in soft tissues and bone and is pretty accurate. Bod Pod has a pretty big error and a lot of factors that effect it, so I agree, it's not a good tool to use.
Bioimpedence scales / handhelds, definitely are affected by hydration since they measure the resistance of your body, and since water conducts much better than fat, you'll get imprecise and inaccurate readings.
Edit: I shouldn't have said "nothing to do with hydration levels" there will be a fluctuation in your fat free mass due to hydration which could affect any body fat measurement by a small percentage. This is a second order effect, and could throw off a measurement by about +/-1.5%, which is close as you can get to measuring body fat %.
If you said it shows the trend you were did not use good language to do so...as I reread what you posted and I don't see where you said you can see "trends".
And glad to see you edited your other post...
Saying something is "precise" should imply that it can be used to show a trend. That's what precision is used for.
And yes, I did edit my post because my initial statement was incorrect.
I thought we already covered that point. That's why I suggested doing it yourself and not getting it done at the gym. I can very precisely pinch the same spots on my body. Just pick a reference point like a birthmark or blemish or something near the skinfold location, or use a tape measure.0 -
brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »avedaprincess wrote: »I've been working with a personal trainer for 3 months now, lifting heavy 3x/week. We did measurements and calculations today...I'm still cubbies than I want to be, but I've gained 6 pounds of muscle, and lost 2 pounds of fat (according to the head trainer who did my calculations). My question is ...what can I do to lost more fat? I'm really getting discouraged. I am still in an 8-10 clothing size and will be covering up this summer at the lake if I can't get my weight under control. I've been eating 1200-1300 cals per day...I'm short, and would like to be wearing a size 6 again...any advice?
With all due respect, there are several things in your post that don't quite make sense.
Muscle gain is next to impossible when eating at a deficit......you can't make something out of nothing.
And since you are exercising and working with a PT there also will be no newbie gains, which are minimal anyway.
Even if you have gained some muscle, there is no way that it is six pounds in three month, because the hormonal make-up of women just makes this impossible.
It is also not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, because in order to lose fat you have to eat at a deficit and in order to gain muscle you have to eat at least at a slight increase. I think what is happening is that as you are losing fat your muscles become more visible. They are muscles you always had and not new ones.
I don't quite understand what is wrong with a size 8-10 even for a short person ( I am under five feet myself ), but in order to lose fat you just have to keep eating at a deficit and exercise.
On a personal note, I would probably have another trainer check my numbers again, because no matter if he is the head trainer or not, he is maybe just telling you stuff to impress you and keep you as a customer. Maybe you'd like to check with the weight lifting group here in MFP. Many of them are very knowledgeable when it comes to lifting and diet and I am sure they will tell you pretty much the same thing.
Good Luck !
It is definitely possible, but limited to individuals new to lifting.
no it's not eating at her levels doing a little lifting (3 months worth)...using calipers to measure....please.
I am not sure where you are getting your information but you need to regroup and re-evaluate.
Wow really? My comment was directed to the very general statement of "it's not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time", it is possible. I already said that OP likely didn't gain muscle, and especially with her diet and routine. Why are you twisting my words?
How did I twist anything...you said calipers were precise...they are not.
If that comment was directed at the particular statement then make it more clear...as your statement was...it is possible...but limited to individuals new to lifting....which makes it sound like her scenario is plausible.
Calipers are precise if used correctly. If you measure the same spots in the same way every week they will give you a mm reading which will show you if there is less fat on those spots or not, and thus they will be precise. They will show a trend over time if you are loosing BF or not, but they wont necessarily be accurate like you said.
As for my comment about gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, it was in response to the general statement that it was not possible. It is possible for some people, and that comment had nothing to do with OP's current routine and whether or not she could gain muscle and lose fat while doing that routine. It was purely saying, yes, it is possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
How can calipers test visceral fat? @galgenstrick
Hydration level. You do know there is a fast period before you do a bod pod right? So that whole comment is completely false. Lots of wrong in this thread.
As far as I'm aware, there's not a way to test visceral fat separately from subcutaneous fat. @yopeeps025 Which comment are you referring to that's false?
Regarding hydration levels, you can be in different states of hydration even while fasting... You can however get your hydration level measured before DEXA or bod pod which would make the results more accurate, but even if you didn't, DEXA can still measure within a percent or two, which is plenty accurate for most people that want to know their BF%.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »avedaprincess wrote: »I've been working with a personal trainer for 3 months now, lifting heavy 3x/week. We did measurements and calculations today...I'm still cubbies than I want to be, but I've gained 6 pounds of muscle, and lost 2 pounds of fat (according to the head trainer who did my calculations). My question is ...what can I do to lost more fat? I'm really getting discouraged. I am still in an 8-10 clothing size and will be covering up this summer at the lake if I can't get my weight under control. I've been eating 1200-1300 cals per day...I'm short, and would like to be wearing a size 6 again...any advice?
With all due respect, there are several things in your post that don't quite make sense.
Muscle gain is next to impossible when eating at a deficit......you can't make something out of nothing.
And since you are exercising and working with a PT there also will be no newbie gains, which are minimal anyway.
Even if you have gained some muscle, there is no way that it is six pounds in three month, because the hormonal make-up of women just makes this impossible.
It is also not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, because in order to lose fat you have to eat at a deficit and in order to gain muscle you have to eat at least at a slight increase. I think what is happening is that as you are losing fat your muscles become more visible. They are muscles you always had and not new ones.
I don't quite understand what is wrong with a size 8-10 even for a short person ( I am under five feet myself ), but in order to lose fat you just have to keep eating at a deficit and exercise.
On a personal note, I would probably have another trainer check my numbers again, because no matter if he is the head trainer or not, he is maybe just telling you stuff to impress you and keep you as a customer. Maybe you'd like to check with the weight lifting group here in MFP. Many of them are very knowledgeable when it comes to lifting and diet and I am sure they will tell you pretty much the same thing.
Good Luck !
It is definitely possible, but limited to individuals new to lifting.
no it's not eating at her levels doing a little lifting (3 months worth)...using calipers to measure....please.
I am not sure where you are getting your information but you need to regroup and re-evaluate.
Wow really? My comment was directed to the very general statement of "it's not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time", it is possible. I already said that OP likely didn't gain muscle, and especially with her diet and routine. Why are you twisting my words?
How did I twist anything...you said calipers were precise...they are not.
If that comment was directed at the particular statement then make it more clear...as your statement was...it is possible...but limited to individuals new to lifting....which makes it sound like her scenario is plausible.
Calipers are precise if used correctly. If you measure the same spots in the same way every week they will give you a mm reading which will show you if there is less fat on those spots or not, and thus they will be precise. They will show a trend over time if you are loosing BF or not, but they wont necessarily be accurate like you said.
As for my comment about gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, it was in response to the general statement that it was not possible. It is possible for some people, and that comment had nothing to do with OP's current routine and whether or not she could gain muscle and lose fat while doing that routine. It was purely saying, yes, it is possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
How can calipers test visceral fat? @galgenstrick
Hydration level. You do know there is a fast period before you do a bod pod right? So that whole comment is completely false. Lots of wrong in this thread.
As far as I'm aware, there's not a way to test visceral fat separately from subcutaneous fat. @yopeeps025 Which comment are you referring to that's false?
Regarding hydration levels, you can be in different states of hydration even while fasting... You can however get your hydration level measured before DEXA or bod pod which would make the results more accurate, but even if you didn't, DEXA can still measure within a percent or two, which is plenty accurate for most people that want to know their BF%.
You agreed with another poster about hydration affecting results for a bod pod when it tells you to fast before it. It also means fast as in consume nothing before the test.0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »avedaprincess wrote: »I've been working with a personal trainer for 3 months now, lifting heavy 3x/week. We did measurements and calculations today...I'm still cubbies than I want to be, but I've gained 6 pounds of muscle, and lost 2 pounds of fat (according to the head trainer who did my calculations). My question is ...what can I do to lost more fat? I'm really getting discouraged. I am still in an 8-10 clothing size and will be covering up this summer at the lake if I can't get my weight under control. I've been eating 1200-1300 cals per day...I'm short, and would like to be wearing a size 6 again...any advice?
With all due respect, there are several things in your post that don't quite make sense.
Muscle gain is next to impossible when eating at a deficit......you can't make something out of nothing.
And since you are exercising and working with a PT there also will be no newbie gains, which are minimal anyway.
Even if you have gained some muscle, there is no way that it is six pounds in three month, because the hormonal make-up of women just makes this impossible.
It is also not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, because in order to lose fat you have to eat at a deficit and in order to gain muscle you have to eat at least at a slight increase. I think what is happening is that as you are losing fat your muscles become more visible. They are muscles you always had and not new ones.
I don't quite understand what is wrong with a size 8-10 even for a short person ( I am under five feet myself ), but in order to lose fat you just have to keep eating at a deficit and exercise.
On a personal note, I would probably have another trainer check my numbers again, because no matter if he is the head trainer or not, he is maybe just telling you stuff to impress you and keep you as a customer. Maybe you'd like to check with the weight lifting group here in MFP. Many of them are very knowledgeable when it comes to lifting and diet and I am sure they will tell you pretty much the same thing.
Good Luck !
It is definitely possible, but limited to individuals new to lifting.
no it's not eating at her levels doing a little lifting (3 months worth)...using calipers to measure....please.
I am not sure where you are getting your information but you need to regroup and re-evaluate.
Wow really? My comment was directed to the very general statement of "it's not possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time", it is possible. I already said that OP likely didn't gain muscle, and especially with her diet and routine. Why are you twisting my words?
How did I twist anything...you said calipers were precise...they are not.
If that comment was directed at the particular statement then make it more clear...as your statement was...it is possible...but limited to individuals new to lifting....which makes it sound like her scenario is plausible.
Calipers are precise if used correctly. If you measure the same spots in the same way every week they will give you a mm reading which will show you if there is less fat on those spots or not, and thus they will be precise. They will show a trend over time if you are loosing BF or not, but they wont necessarily be accurate like you said.
As for my comment about gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time, it was in response to the general statement that it was not possible. It is possible for some people, and that comment had nothing to do with OP's current routine and whether or not she could gain muscle and lose fat while doing that routine. It was purely saying, yes, it is possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
How can calipers test visceral fat? @galgenstrick
Hydration level. You do know there is a fast period before you do a bod pod right? So that whole comment is completely false. Lots of wrong in this thread.
As far as I'm aware, there's not a way to test visceral fat separately from subcutaneous fat. @yopeeps025 Which comment are you referring to that's false?
Regarding hydration levels, you can be in different states of hydration even while fasting... You can however get your hydration level measured before DEXA or bod pod which would make the results more accurate, but even if you didn't, DEXA can still measure within a percent or two, which is plenty accurate for most people that want to know their BF%.
You agreed with another poster about hydration affecting results for a bod pod when it tells you to fast before it. It also means fast as in consume nothing before the test.
Originally I didn't think it affected it, but I looked that up in an accuracy study for DEXA. And hydration plays a small roll in the accuracy. I think fasting would reduce some of that error but there still is some because everyone is going to have a different baseline that their body is hydrated at, and more so if you can drink water during the fast.
But, we're talking about a pretty much negligible error, I only edited my comment to include the hydration part because I didn't want to get argued against for not being technical enough. I still stand by my statement that DEXA gives an accurate reading for BF%, and hydration levels don't matter much as it will still give you a value within a percent or two, or even better if you measure your hydration level beforehand.0 -
avedaprincess wrote: »I've been working with a personal trainer for 3 months now, lifting heavy 3x/week. We did measurements and calculations today...I'm still cubbies than I want to be, but I've gained 6 pounds of muscle, and lost 2 pounds of fat (according to the head trainer who did my calculations). My question is ...what can I do to lost more fat? I'm really getting discouraged. I am still in an 8-10 clothing size and will be covering up this summer at the lake if I can't get my weight under control. I've been eating 1200-1300 cals per day...I'm short, and would like to be wearing a size 6 again...any advice?
I'm COMPLETELY in the same boat. I've been working on lifting weights and I've greatly improved my strength. But the scale...ugh, the scale. It has not moved much in the past two months (4-5 pounds). I am thinking of going to get body fat tested as I'd like some tangible results to see. I have lost some inches (well, .75 of an inch) on my upper leg, so that is good. (I should have done pictures as weight lifting people swear by them).0 -
Think of it this way. They tell you to fast because they know the machine will have some error due to how hydrated you are. So technically speaking, the machine is sensitive to hydration levels. Although fasting will eliminate all significant error due to hydration. That's the only reason I edited my post. And I agree, if you're fasted then you don't have to worry about hydration screwing up the measurement.0
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galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
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brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!
You are trying to defend a system that is not precise by referring to it as "precise enough" ... laughable. You lower the bar to "useful" data rather than accurate. It seems you strive for mediocrity ... perhaps you'll reach it some day.0 -
I think "precise enough" to determine that body fat is increasing or decreasing is all most people in the real world require. That it's gone from 13.47% to 13.27% probably isn't relevant to many people posting here.brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!
You are trying to defend a system that is not precise by referring to it as "precise enough" ... laughable. You lower the bar to "useful" data rather than accurate. It seems you strive for mediocrity ... perhaps you'll reach it some day.
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who knew calipers could be so controversial....?0
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brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!
You are trying to defend a system that is not precise by referring to it as "precise enough" ... laughable. You lower the bar to "useful" data rather than accurate. It seems you strive for mediocrity ... perhaps you'll reach it some day.
Yup, calipers are a useful tool to measure progress. If you'd rather spend a ton of unnecessary money on DEXA scans so you can be even more precise and accurate, then be my guest. But yes, calipers are precise enough to measure your progress. Learning a little statistics will go a long way, I suggest you take a course to further your education.
You don't need data to 30 decimal places to know if you lost body fat or gained muscle. Calipers measuring to +/-1mm are just fine for that.0 -
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
I think "precise enough" to determine that body fat is increasing or decreasing is all most people in the real world require. That it's gone from 13.47% to 13.27% probably isn't relevant to many people posting here.brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!
You are trying to defend a system that is not precise by referring to it as "precise enough" ... laughable. You lower the bar to "useful" data rather than accurate. It seems you strive for mediocrity ... perhaps you'll reach it some day.
Exactly, if I hypothetically take 5 measurements that are all within 0.0001mm of each other with one tool, and another 5 measurements that are all within 0.5mm of each other with a different tool, then depending on the experiment, both sets of measurements can be statistically determined to be precise. In that scenario the more precise tool would be unnecessary. And if the tool that was used to measure to 0.0001mm was much more expensive than the tool used to measure to 0.5mm, most scientists would opt for the cheaper tool.
This is why a tape measure is "good enough" for construction work, and a micrometer is needed for precision engineering applications.0 -
TheOwlhouseDesigns wrote: »i looked at it
And you really have to start weighing your food on a food scale
ALL your food
No measuring cups or spoons they are for liquids.
Also forget about serving sizes
I ate one serving of pizza crust 2 days ago which should be 180 calories for 57 gram...when i weighed it it was lots more than 57 gram so more calories
Have these kinda errors and it adds up...a lot!
look at this short video about the difference between weighing and using cups (hundreds of calories)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVjWPclrWVY
great, thanks for posting this0 -
OP - have a read of this .... https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1080242/a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants/p1
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galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!
You are trying to defend a system that is not precise by referring to it as "precise enough" ... laughable. You lower the bar to "useful" data rather than accurate. It seems you strive for mediocrity ... perhaps you'll reach it some day.
Yup, calipers are a useful tool to measure progress. If you'd rather spend a ton of unnecessary money on DEXA scans so you can be even more precise and accurate, then be my guest. But yes, calipers are precise enough to measure your progress. Learning a little statistics will go a long way, I suggest you take a course to further your education.
You don't need data to 30 decimal places to know if you lost body fat or gained muscle. Calipers measuring to +/-1mm are just fine for that.
Your next to last sentence is reductio ad absurdum. That coupled with your flawed jab at my education is quite revealing about you.
You've downgraded your argument to just tracking trends ... no longer requiring accuracy nor precision. As I said earlier, the caliper is a precision tool ... the system involving a human is not precise. Your assumption that the system will be +/- 1mm is nothing more than an assumption.
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How do you track a trend without precision?brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!
You are trying to defend a system that is not precise by referring to it as "precise enough" ... laughable. You lower the bar to "useful" data rather than accurate. It seems you strive for mediocrity ... perhaps you'll reach it some day.
Yup, calipers are a useful tool to measure progress. If you'd rather spend a ton of unnecessary money on DEXA scans so you can be even more precise and accurate, then be my guest. But yes, calipers are precise enough to measure your progress. Learning a little statistics will go a long way, I suggest you take a course to further your education.
You don't need data to 30 decimal places to know if you lost body fat or gained muscle. Calipers measuring to +/-1mm are just fine for that.
Your next to last sentence is reductio ad absurdum. That coupled with your flawed jab at my education is quite revealing about you.
You've downgraded your argument to just tracking trends ... no longer requiring accuracy nor precision. As I said earlier, the caliper is a precision tool ... the system involving a human is not precise. Your assumption that the system will be +/- 1mm is nothing more than an assumption.
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brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »The calipers, as an instrument, are precise. The measurement system which includes the operator is not. The outcome is inaccurate.
The operator can be precise enough to get useful data. Not seeing why you don't think so.
"precise enough" is not precise. The fact you put a margin of error into precision is laughable.
You're joking right? Every measurement has a margin of error. No one can make a measurement to an infinite number of decimal places. Has anyone here taken a science class??!
You are trying to defend a system that is not precise by referring to it as "precise enough" ... laughable. You lower the bar to "useful" data rather than accurate. It seems you strive for mediocrity ... perhaps you'll reach it some day.
Yup, calipers are a useful tool to measure progress. If you'd rather spend a ton of unnecessary money on DEXA scans so you can be even more precise and accurate, then be my guest. But yes, calipers are precise enough to measure your progress. Learning a little statistics will go a long way, I suggest you take a course to further your education.
You don't need data to 30 decimal places to know if you lost body fat or gained muscle. Calipers measuring to +/-1mm are just fine for that.
Your next to last sentence is reductio ad absurdum. That coupled with your flawed jab at my education is quite revealing about you.
You've downgraded your argument to just tracking trends ... no longer requiring accuracy nor precision. As I said earlier, the caliper is a precision tool ... the system involving a human is not precise. Your assumption that the system will be +/- 1mm is nothing more than an assumption.
It sounds like your education is in rhetoric and you should leave the math to the engineers0 -
Welp...all of the debating has me confused. Anyway, in a nutshell I need professional help. I hired the trainer to help with nutrition and weight training, but I'm not getting the nutrition help. I made an appointment with a nutrition center late next week. I'll also just start doing my DVDS again. I've been depressed for a few days and haven't tracked my food diary
I'm just beyond frustrated and feeling hopeless... 0 -
avedaprincess wrote: »Welp...all of the debating has me confused. Anyway, in a nutshell I need professional help. I hired the trainer to help with nutrition and weight training, but I'm not getting the nutrition help. I made an appointment with a nutrition center late next week. I'll also just start doing my DVDS again. I've been depressed for a few days and haven't tracked my food diary I'm just beyond frustrated and feeling hopeless...
Definitely keep tracking, you'll get bonus points at your appointment with the nutrition center if not anything else.0 -
avedaprincess wrote: »Welp...all of the debating has me confused. Anyway, in a nutshell I need professional help. I hired the trainer to help with nutrition and weight training, but I'm not getting the nutrition help. I made an appointment with a nutrition center late next week. I'll also just start doing my DVDS again. I've been depressed for a few days and haven't tracked my food diary I'm just beyond frustrated and feeling hopeless...
Sorry about that...
BF% is just one measure don't rely on it too much esp when done with calipers is my point.
Use weight, clothing size, bmi, bf%, how you feel and pics...they all tell the story.
The nutrition centre make sure it has a registered dietician that is up to date not just a nutritionist...I say this because you can become a "qualified nutritionist" over a weekend with an online course...
As for the frustration about losing fat...just log accurately (using a food scale) and consistently (the good and the bad) do some form of resistance training (it doesn't have to be heavy lifting) and it you will lose the fat......while maintaining what muscle you have.
You won't gain muscle on a deficit..you just won't. You are not an 18 year old male, obese or so new to lifting that you could....sorry. But it's all good...gaining muscle is hard work and takes patience...just retain what you have and then worry about building it.0 -
^^^ all of this. And I'll second the comment about the dietitian. You might get a lot of woo with a nutritionist. Similarly, you can become a personal trainer in the same way; some online courses over the weekend, so don't be afraid to switch PTs if you feel the one you have isn't up to par.0
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avedaprincess wrote: »Welp...all of the debating has me confused. Anyway, in a nutshell I need professional help. I hired the trainer to help with nutrition and weight training, but I'm not getting the nutrition help. I made an appointment with a nutrition center late next week. I'll also just start doing my DVDS again. I've been depressed for a few days and haven't tracked my food diary I'm just beyond frustrated and feeling hopeless...
Exercise compares favorably to antidepressant medications as a first-line treatment for mild to moderate depression
I'd like to look at your diary and sent you a friend request. But I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess if you you tighten up your logging you will see more results.
Also, what's your exercise level set at and how many exercise calories do you eat back?
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I have a trainer 2x/week, and do jillian Michaels 1-2 x/ week. I work a lot also.0
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Ok, but what's your exercise level set at and how many exercise calories do you eat back?0
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