Thoughts on diet high in fat??
Replies
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Saturated fat is healthy and not realted to increased risk of health issues, only on MFP and nowhere else
Two website pieces from temples of conventional wisdom and one opinion from Walter Walrus Willett, so deep in the Lipid Hypothesis you can't see him anymore, trying to slag off a study. That all you got ? LOL.
Willett should produce a peer reviewed analysis that supports his position, not try to scare people off evidence that counters it.
Key issue for me is that the saturated fat level in the bloodstream is not a function of that in the diet.
Last time I checked, Willett was the head of Nutrition department in one of the most high ranking schools on Health, not the banana girl or some random blogger. I understand that people like complicated and exotic, or at least unconventional diets. We all want to be special snowflakes, and just following some boring calorie counting balanced nutrients "normal" eating plan does not sound that exciting. Eating at 80% fat or eating bacon only or bananas only or other similar things does sound more exciting, and might even work for some, but from there to dismissing health concerns from reputable medical sites and reputable health professionals, because they are "conventional"... what can I say? I hope the average person has the common sense to evaluate the advice of boring health professionals over the advice of random people on the internet, although I must admit the number of fruitaritarians, paleo eaters, cleanse fanatics etc make me doubt this. In the end, we are all responsible for own lifestyle choices, the risks we are willing to take and the long term impact on our health.
Out of curiosity: how much do you know about the diet and lifestyle Dr. Willett advocates? "normal" (meaning mainstream here) isn't how I'd describe it.
I am not American. If what you say is true, perhaps my mainstream is not the American mainstream, which I have no reason to doubt. So for me, what he advocates is pretty much "normal". I suspect for most of the world it is not that far from mainstream, but this is based on my very limited personal experience, not on any research.
The Harvard pyramid is not that exotic to me, it is actually very close to traditional for me
https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2012/10/healthy-eating-pyramid-700-link.jpg
And even if he was advocating something really unusual, he still is the head of a very reputable medical school, I think he is the most referenced scientist in his field, so dismissing (not you) his work as if he were just one more clueless person, it makes me roll my eyes.
A diet that relegates red meat to "use sparingly" is not very mainstream American.
And a diet that is based HEAVILY on vegetables isn't very popular it seems either.
I'd be fine with his diet if it weren't for "whole grains at most meals". Blech. I'd feel like crap.
Vegetables, nuts, seeds, fruits, seafood, tofu, legumes etc. sure!
PS: many of the low carb/HIGH fat names you hear floating around are professors of medical schools etc. as well.
cheers
pps: good vegetarian low carb/high fat diet for fun.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Saturated fat is healthy and not realted to increased risk of health issues, only on MFP and nowhere else
Two website pieces from temples of conventional wisdom and one opinion from Walter Walrus Willett, so deep in the Lipid Hypothesis you can't see him anymore, trying to slag off a study. That all you got ? LOL.
Willett should produce a peer reviewed analysis that supports his position, not try to scare people off evidence that counters it.
Key issue for me is that the saturated fat level in the bloodstream is not a function of that in the diet.
Last time I checked, Willett was the head of Nutrition department in one of the most high ranking schools on Health, not the banana girl or some random blogger. I understand that people like complicated and exotic, or at least unconventional diets. We all want to be special snowflakes, and just following some boring calorie counting balanced nutrients "normal" eating plan does not sound that exciting. Eating at 80% fat or eating bacon only or bananas only or other similar things does sound more exciting, and might even work for some, but from there to dismissing health concerns from reputable medical sites and reputable health professionals, because they are "conventional"... what can I say? I hope the average person has the common sense to evaluate the advice of boring health professionals over the advice of random people on the internet, although I must admit the number of fruitaritarians, paleo eaters, cleanse fanatics etc make me doubt this. In the end, we are all responsible for own lifestyle choices, the risks we are willing to take and the long term impact on our health.
Out of curiosity: how much do you know about the diet and lifestyle Dr. Willett advocates? "normal" (meaning mainstream here) isn't how I'd describe it.
Definitely dr. Willet is another person that would be crucified here on MFP:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/diet/interviews/willett.html
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And even if he was advocating something really unusual, he still is the head of a very reputable medical school, I think he is the most referenced scientist in his field, so dismissing (not you) his work as if he were just one more clueless person, it makes me roll my eyes.
I didn't suggest he was clueless, just that he is so invested in one approach that he'll take it to the grave.
I can't think of a better illustration of his eminence based approach attacking the meta-study that failed to find a problem with saturated fat - purely because it conflicts with his cast in stone view. The outcome was unacceptable to him, regardless of the quality of the analysis and the investigators - "From the University of Cambridge and Medical Research Council, Cambridge, United Kingdom; Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts; University of Oxford, Oxford, United Kingdom; School of Public Health, Imperial College London, London, United Kingdom; Centre for Exercise, Nutrition and Health Sciences, University of Bristol, Bristol, United Kingdom; and Erasmus University Medical Center, Rotterdam, the Netherlands."
If Willett has a stronger case than http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1846638 then let's see it published.
I can't read the study you cite without subscribing to the site, some common issues with these studies that cause confusion is when the study is about increased fat consumption without lowering carb intake. Processing substantial amounts of carbohydrates involve metabolic processes that already increase lipids in the blood. In addition, the high availability of blood sugar prevents the cellular adaptations that use blood lipids for fuel. This is the mechanism which provides lchf eating with benefits. To a large extent, the seemingly contradictory data is attributable to the lack of common definitions. Some studies count less that 150g of carbs as low carb. This level doesn't provide the conditions needed for keto adaptation for most individuals. Also it's well recognized that there is an adaptation process individuals experience when changing the bodies fuel source. Some studies do not extend beyond that 14 day period required for the adaptation.
If those factors are taken into account some of the seemingly contradictory data actually is supportive.0 -
Discussing the effects of fat intake without taking into account overall calorie consumption is pointless. Eating a fat-rich diet while at maintenance or below is an entirely different thing than eating a fat-rich diet while on a caloric surplus.
OP is not in surplus and, barring any medical conditions, can thrive across an extremely wide range of macro ratios. I wouldn't even begin to worry about it unless one of the macros went below 20% for an extended period of time - and even then it might not be an issue.
OP - if those ratios work for you, personally, have at it! :drinker:0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Saturated fat is healthy and not realted to increased risk of health issues, only on MFP and nowhere else
Two website pieces from temples of conventional wisdom and one opinion from Walter Walrus Willett, so deep in the Lipid Hypothesis you can't see him anymore, trying to slag off a study. That all you got ? LOL.
Willett should produce a peer reviewed analysis that supports his position, not try to scare people off evidence that counters it.
Key issue for me is that the saturated fat level in the bloodstream is not a function of that in the diet.
Last time I checked, Willett was the head of Nutrition department in one of the most high ranking schools on Health, not the banana girl or some random blogger. I understand that people like complicated and exotic, or at least unconventional diets. We all want to be special snowflakes, and just following some boring calorie counting balanced nutrients "normal" eating plan does not sound that exciting. Eating at 80% fat or eating bacon only or bananas only or other similar things does sound more exciting, and might even work for some, but from there to dismissing health concerns from reputable medical sites and reputable health professionals, because they are "conventional"... what can I say? I hope the average person has the common sense to evaluate the advice of boring health professionals over the advice of random people on the internet, although I must admit the number of fruitaritarians, paleo eaters, cleanse fanatics etc make me doubt this. In the end, we are all responsible for own lifestyle choices, the risks we are willing to take and the long term impact on our health.
Out of curiosity: how much do you know about the diet and lifestyle Dr. Willett advocates? "normal" (meaning mainstream here) isn't how I'd describe it.
Definitely dr. Willet is another person that would be crucified here on MFP:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/diet/interviews/willett.html
YUP YUP!0 -
Discussing the effects of fat intake without taking into account overall calorie consumption is pointless. Eating a fat-rich diet while at maintenance or below is an entirely different thing than eating a fat-rich diet while on a caloric surplus.
OP is not in surplus and, barring any medical conditions, can thrive across an extremely wide range of macro ratios. I wouldn't even begin to worry about it unless one of the macros went below 20% for an extended period of time - and even then it might not be an issue.
OP - if those ratios work for you, personally, have at it! :drinker:
Cheers Mr Knight, I think like others have said its just a matter of experimenting with it.
At the minute im working out all my Macros ahead of time using MFP to see what foods are going to help me achieve my Macros. I tend to use it to work out quantities of food to meet my goal and write them down, instead of using it on an ongoing basis to record my intake.
The Keto diet seems a bit too extreme, I still want to eat some carbs, just want to limit them a lot more and see how I get on.
I was comtemplating ditching the protein shakes as well, my thinking behind this was because its not a natural food, so that might be something I try out as well. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated also?? (all be it probably a topic for another thread in fairness).
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I ditched protein powder not too long ago. My morning shake now consists of heavy whipping cream, raw eggs and cinnamon 0
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I ditched protein powder not too long ago. My morning shake now consists of heavy whipping cream, raw eggs and cinnamon
I tend to eat about a maintenance level of protein, maybe just a little higher in case I actually do the strength training I plan on doing. lol. The body turns excess protein into carbs anyway. My morning drink is coffee, eggs, cocoa and coconut oil. LOVE it!0 -
As long as you're consuming healthy fats from plants such as avocados, nuts, seeds, and olive oil - go for it! If you're into meat, stick with organic, grass fed lean meat - just don't go over 300 mg of cholesterol. If you get your fat from plants, you will not have to worry about cholesterol at all.0
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As long as you're consuming healthy fats from plants such as avocados, nuts, seeds, and olive oil - go for it! If you're into meat, stick with organic, grass fed lean meat - just don't go over 300 mg of cholesterol. If you get your fat from plants, you will not have to worry about cholesterol at all.
LOL, I go over 1,000 mg of cholesterol daily...0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Saturated fat is healthy and not realted to increased risk of health issues, only on MFP and nowhere else
Two website pieces from temples of conventional wisdom and one opinion from Walter Walrus Willett, so deep in the Lipid Hypothesis you can't see him anymore, trying to slag off a study. That all you got ? LOL.
Willett should produce a peer reviewed analysis that supports his position, not try to scare people off evidence that counters it.
Key issue for me is that the saturated fat level in the bloodstream is not a function of that in the diet.
Last time I checked, Willett was the head of Nutrition department in one of the most high ranking schools on Health, not the banana girl or some random blogger. I understand that people like complicated and exotic, or at least unconventional diets. We all want to be special snowflakes, and just following some boring calorie counting balanced nutrients "normal" eating plan does not sound that exciting. Eating at 80% fat or eating bacon only or bananas only or other similar things does sound more exciting, and might even work for some, but from there to dismissing health concerns from reputable medical sites and reputable health professionals, because they are "conventional"... what can I say? I hope the average person has the common sense to evaluate the advice of boring health professionals over the advice of random people on the internet, although I must admit the number of fruitaritarians, paleo eaters, cleanse fanatics etc make me doubt this. In the end, we are all responsible for own lifestyle choices, the risks we are willing to take and the long term impact on our health.
Out of curiosity: how much do you know about the diet and lifestyle Dr. Willett advocates? "normal" (meaning mainstream here) isn't how I'd describe it.
I am not American. If what you say is true, perhaps my mainstream is not the American mainstream, which I have no reason to doubt. So for me, what he advocates is pretty much "normal". I suspect for most of the world it is not that far from mainstream, but this is based on my very limited personal experience, not on any research.
The Harvard pyramid is not that exotic to me, it is actually very close to traditional for me
https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2012/10/healthy-eating-pyramid-700-link.jpg
And even if he was advocating something really unusual, he still is the head of a very reputable medical school, I think he is the most referenced scientist in his field, so dismissing (not you) his work as if he were just one more clueless person, it makes me roll my eyes.
A diet that relegates red meat to "use sparingly" is not very mainstream American.
And a diet that is based HEAVILY on vegetables isn't very popular it seems either.
I'd be fine with his diet if it weren't for "whole grains at most meals". Blech. I'd feel like crap.
Vegetables, nuts, seeds, fruits, seafood, tofu, legumes etc. sure!
PS: many of the low carb/HIGH fat names you hear floating around are professors of medical schools etc. as well.
cheers
pps: good vegetarian low carb/high fat diet for fun.
I am skeptical about some of Willett's positions too (and in particular the focus on grains, although I'm not anti grains). However, I do find it interesting how often those who claim to be anti carb due to the alleged unhealthiness of carbs (often to the point of being skeptical of fruits and veggies) completely ignore or deny the fact that mainstream nutrition scientists like Willett are still raising concerns about saturated fat. You'd think it was well established that bacon should be increased in all diets and whole grains and legumes and peaches decreased.
That the SAD is terrible in lots of ways doesn't change that.0 -
I ditched protein powder not too long ago. My morning shake now consists of heavy whipping cream, raw eggs and cinnamon
I tend to eat about a maintenance level of protein, maybe just a little higher in case I actually do the strength training I plan on doing. lol. The body turns excess protein into carbs anyway. My morning drink is coffee, eggs, cocoa and coconut oil. LOVE it!
Lol this sounds interesting, do you just blend it all together I take it?? Seen a post recently about blending tofu and adding vanilla to it to make your own protein shake.As long as you're consuming healthy fats from plants such as avocados, nuts, seeds, and olive oil - go for it! If you're into meat, stick with organic, grass fed lean meat - just don't go over 300 mg of cholesterol. If you get your fat from plants, you will not have to worry about cholesterol at all.
Thanks for this, Avocado and Nuts are becoming more and more of a staple in my diet. Is it alright to eat two Avocados a day or is that over doing it? what about dairy like grass fed butter, whole milk and full fat greek yogurt, would that raise cholesterol the same way as meat would??
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As long as you're consuming healthy fats from plants such as avocados, nuts, seeds, and olive oil - go for it! If you're into meat, stick with organic, grass fed lean meat - just don't go over 300 mg of cholesterol. If you get your fat from plants, you will not have to worry about cholesterol at all.
Just checked my Cholesterol levels from breakfast this morning, turns out its about 370mg's lol. must have been all the eggs!
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I like eating higher fat. Through my personal experience, fat keeps me full, keeps me sane (I need Klondike bars and steak in my intake, darn it!), and it's great if you need to eat something more calorically dense to hit your calories for the day. Plus, it's good for brain functioning!
I used to be scared of fat, but once I realized that fat is an essential macro and fat won't make you fat, I upped my daily goal and never looked back.0 -
I am not sure if this is true everywhere, but in many places, if you donate blood to a blood bank, hemoglobin and cholesterol checks are part of the procedure and are free.
A low carb/high fat diet works really well for me as long as I make sure I get lots and lots of nutrient dense low carb veggies. I don't absorb supplements well, so if I eat my few carbs in the form of junk I lose energy and start to develop other health problems as well. A green smoothie with coconut milk and a bit of protein on the side, about an hour before the gym usually sets me up great for a really good workout.0 -
I am skeptical about some of Willett's positions too (and in particular the focus on grains, although I'm not anti grains). However, I do find it interesting how often those who claim to be anti carb due to the alleged unhealthiness of carbs (often to the point of being skeptical of fruits and veggies) completely ignore or deny the fact that mainstream nutrition scientists like Willett are still raising concerns about saturated fat. You'd think it was well established that bacon should be increased in all diets and whole grains and legumes and peaches decreased.
Mainstream bodies are seeking to reduce the focus on sat fat as an issue. http://www.eatrightpro.org/resource/advocacy/take-action/regulatory-comments/dgac-scientific-report based on evidence.
They even say " Therefore, it appears that the evidence summarized by the DGAC suggests that the most effective recommendation for the reduction in cardiovascular disease would be a reduction in carbohydrate intake with replacement by polyunsaturated fat. " which favours fats over grains.0 -
I am skeptical about some of Willett's positions too (and in particular the focus on grains, although I'm not anti grains). However, I do find it interesting how often those who claim to be anti carb due to the alleged unhealthiness of carbs (often to the point of being skeptical of fruits and veggies) completely ignore or deny the fact that mainstream nutrition scientists like Willett are still raising concerns about saturated fat. You'd think it was well established that bacon should be increased in all diets and whole grains and legumes and peaches decreased.
Mainstream bodies are seeking to reduce the focus on sat fat as an issue. http://www.eatrightpro.org/resource/advocacy/take-action/regulatory-comments/dgac-scientific-report based on evidence.
They even say " Therefore, it appears that the evidence summarized by the DGAC suggests that the most effective recommendation for the reduction in cardiovascular disease would be a reduction in carbohydrate intake with replacement by polyunsaturated fat. " which favours fats over grains.
Not sat fat, though, which was the point.0 -
Even the antideluvian USDA is stating that fat/cholesterol intake doesn't affect blood lipids.
My cholesterol intake is around 1000mg daily but my HDL/LDL ratio tested better last week than any time before in my life. Triglycerides, total cholesterol and blood sugar were also well into normal for the first time ever.
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I ditched protein powder not too long ago. My morning shake now consists of heavy whipping cream, raw eggs and cinnamon
I make a chai with 2 raw eggs, chai spices, and MCT oil. Zap it with an immersion blender. It's so good, but sometimes I worry about the raw eggs... I never worry about the cholesterol
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Don't do raw eggs! There's the obvious salmonella issue but ingesting raw unprocessed eggs frequently puts you at risk of developing a biotin deficiency. I'd just do the whipped cream and cinnamon lol 0
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Fat is awesome.0
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Yum! I make similar, but mush avo with finely chopped coriander and spread it over the top with sugar free BBQ sauce....
My lunch was awesome - crispy skin ocean trout, on green vegies cooked in butter and coconut oil and herbs and spices, that had avo and chopped nuts stirred through. The avo makes the vegies slightly creamy.0 -
Sounds great, Coriander is a great mix with Avocado, its a must in Guacamole!
Fish is something I have to start eating far more of. At the moment I eat Tuna and Salmon and that's about the height of it.
Cooking with the Coconut Oil is great as well, gives everything nice flavor.0 -
Ironmaiden4life wrote: »Don't do raw eggs! There's the obvious salmonella issue but ingesting raw unprocessed eggs frequently puts you at risk of developing a biotin deficiency. I'd just do the whipped cream and cinnamon lol
Salmonella risk is way over-exaggerated. Biotin deficiency is easily fixed by eating some cooked eggs as well as raw. I usually have 3-4 raw eggs in my shake in the morning, 3-4 fried eggs with dinner.0 -
I ditched protein powder not too long ago. My morning shake now consists of heavy whipping cream, raw eggs and cinnamon
I make a chai with 2 raw eggs, chai spices, and MCT oil. Zap it with an immersion blender. It's so good, but sometimes I worry about the raw eggs... I never worry about the cholesterol
That does sound good 0 -
I'm afraid despite what the high fat proponents think. the mainstream medical community still agree there is a link between dietary cholesterol and heart disease. To me this pro eat silly amounts of fat idea is just another case of wishful thinking. People like to hear good news about their bad habits
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe1507041
In my opinion if a group of well respected scientist review the available literature in one of the most well respected medical journals in the world and conclude dietary cholesterol is still an issue personally I think ignoring that is just wishful thinking
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