Food addiction
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cwolfman13 wrote: »no...lack of will power or self control does not equal addiction. most people have no idea what it's like to actually be an addict and they throw the term around very loosely. It's *kitten*.
How would you know that any of the people who identify as a food addict don't also have/formerly had a problem with substance abuse/gambling/sex addiction and so do know exactly what it's like to be an addict?
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LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »IMO it's like gluten intolerance: it exists but almost everyone who claims to have it is mistaken.
Except that close to 1% of the population has celiac disease and about 6% have non-celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS), which causes the same symptoms varying in severity) as celiac disease except for the intestinal villi destruction or the maddening dermatitis herpetiformis rash.
According to this statement, a minority of people may not mistaken.
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@sixfarmhicks. That is exactly how my dad feels about alcohol, and he's been stone cold sober for almost 25 years. He would even go to a baseball game anymore because the temptation is still so strong.
I do believe that can happen with food and wish you the best dealing with it.
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PeachyCarol wrote: »I found some of the following interesting...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139704/
Abstract
There is a high degree of overlap between brain regions involved in processing natural rewards and drugs of abuse. “Non-drug” or “behavioral” addictions have become increasingly documented in the clinic, and pathologies include compulsive activities such as shopping, eating, exercising, sexual behavior, and gambling. Like drug addiction, non-drug addictions manifest in symptoms including craving, impaired control over the behavior, tolerance, withdrawal, and high rates of relapse. These alterations in behavior suggest that plasticity may be occurring in brain regions associated with drug addiction. In this review, I summarize data demonstrating that exposure to non-drug rewards can alter neural plasticity in regions of the brain that are affected by drugs of abuse. Research suggests that there are several similarities between neuroplasticity induced by natural and drug rewards and that, depending on the reward, repeated exposure to natural rewards might induce neuroplasticity that either promotes or counteracts addictive behavior.
Along with this study...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210935/
Moreover, because non-drug addictions share the classical definition of addiction with substance abuse and dependence, which includes engaging in the behavior despite serious negative consequences, a new category called “Addiction and Related Behavior” was proposed by the American Psychological Association prior to the publication of DSM-V; this category should include behavioral addictions as well as addictions to natural rewards
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I admit that I have only begun to do reading on "Food Addiction". I never really thought about it until after joining MFP and so many people were claiming to be addicted. Is it real...IDK...but evidently at least some scientist believe that it is worth more extensive study.
I think you missed the point of several posts made already which allowed for speculative papers like this already. It's already been stated that research into this is being done and is in its infancy.
HOWEVER, that's beside the point.
The real point?
Self-diagnosis.
It would trivialize the devastating effects of alcoholism for someone who drank too much at the family barbecue to call themselves an alcoholic.
It trivializes the devastating reality of true Binge Eating Disorder for people who eat a whole box of cookes to call themselves binge eaters.
And it trivializes the nature of true addiction for people to self-label and diagnose themselves with it.
Whether food addiction exists or not is still being determined by scientists.
In the end, should such a determination is made, people who feel they have an issue with it would get a diagnosis.
I have a feeling it would be quite rare.
While I do appreciate your point about trivialization, one certainly does not have to have an official diagnosis to have an addiction.
In the National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey, ...the vast majority of Americans who were alcohol dependent, about three-quarters, never underwent treatment. (And presumably therefore never received a diagnosis.
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sheldonklein wrote: »Until there is a common understanding of what addiction means and why it matters we are just talking past each other. If it matters because it relieves someone of responsibility for what they eat, then no, it doesn't exist. If it matters for some other reason, i need an explanation.
I think the only reason it would matter for another reason would honestly be in the way treatment for the people diagnosed with it would be handled.
For now, I think the self-diagnosers are using it to absolve themselves of personal responsibility, whether they realize this or not.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »If you are getting those kinds of responses to foods that are chemically basically identical to foods that do not result in the same cravings -- and that's how it is with almost all trigger foods that people identify, since foods really aren't all that distinctive on a chemical level -- then it has to be some combination of taste response plus the psychological meaning you place in the food. (That's it's psychological doesn't make it less real; it just suggests that maybe it's something that could be overcome if you cared to do so. Not saying you should.)
Really often, thinking you can't control yourself around a food makes it true.
White pasta is essentially identical to any other processed grain, especially wheat-based -- for example, bread. It's also not that different from most whole wheat pastas, because the difference in the amount of fiber is not particularly high. (I eat whole wheat pasta because I like it just as well usually and it has slight nutritional advantages IMO, but the effect on me is identical.) If you combine it with fat (i.e., cheese) then it becomes chemically about the same as any other combination of processed grain and fat -- bagel and cream cheese or a butter cookie or even a Kit Kat, I think. But there are always psychological meanings that foods have -- mac and cheese certainly could be a comfort food.
Anyway, who knows why one thing becomes a trigger vs. another -- contrary to the usual dogma around here, for me it's no more likely to be a carb-based food that I have trouble not overeating than something else. I think it's complicated and a real thing. I simply DON'T think it's really about the physical reaction to the food, as people will claim a reaction to, say, donuts and not cake. Thus, we aren't talking about addiction.
I don't spend a ton of time thinking about it. They created cravings I didn't want to deal with and they got eliminated.
If it were a lack of self-control, the lack of self-control would manifest itself when I ate things I liked eating. The more I liked them, the harder it would be to control myself. That just isn't the case.
It's an issue with the white bread and pasta, not with my ability to exercise self-control.
Self-control isn't always universal.
I used to be able to exercise restraint with many things, but when it came to certain things? Nope.
Lemurcat is right. If you don't have a similar reaction to a food that's essentially the same chemical/ingredient composition, you're the problem, not the pasta.
I had to admit this to myself when I realized I had no trouble stopping at 2 chocolate chip cookies, but could not help myself when it came to brownies.
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I found some of the following interesting...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3139704/
Abstract
There is a high degree of overlap between brain regions involved in processing natural rewards and drugs of abuse. “Non-drug” or “behavioral” addictions have become increasingly documented in the clinic, and pathologies include compulsive activities such as shopping, eating, exercising, sexual behavior, and gambling. Like drug addiction, non-drug addictions manifest in symptoms including craving, impaired control over the behavior, tolerance, withdrawal, and high rates of relapse. These alterations in behavior suggest that plasticity may be occurring in brain regions associated with drug addiction. In this review, I summarize data demonstrating that exposure to non-drug rewards can alter neural plasticity in regions of the brain that are affected by drugs of abuse. Research suggests that there are several similarities between neuroplasticity induced by natural and drug rewards and that, depending on the reward, repeated exposure to natural rewards might induce neuroplasticity that either promotes or counteracts addictive behavior.
Along with this study...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210935/
Moreover, because non-drug addictions share the classical definition of addiction with substance abuse and dependence, which includes engaging in the behavior despite serious negative consequences, a new category called “Addiction and Related Behavior” was proposed by the American Psychological Association prior to the publication of DSM-V; this category should include behavioral addictions as well as addictions to natural rewards
***
I admit that I have only begun to do reading on "Food Addiction". I never really thought about it until after joining MFP and so many people were claiming to be addicted. Is it real...IDK...but evidently at least some scientist believe that it is worth more extensive study.
Since your first link mentions neuroplasticity, I thought I'd share this very interesting book on the topic: The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science
And ooo, his new book is out The Brain's Way of Healing: Remarkable Discoveries and Recoveries from the Frontiers of Neuroplasticity! And available for download from my library
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PumpJockeyy wrote: »True addiction, IMO, means quitting has some physical effect, some kind of uncomfortable withdrawal. Even caffeine, with it's painful withdrawal headaches would count as an addiction...a mild one, but it qualifies. My pasta issue doesn't.
This.
Binge eating/lack of self control isn't "addiction".
^^ All of the above.
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sixfarmhicks wrote: »Thanks nvsmomketo for the detailed explanation and personal testimony, I won't go on repeating what you have already written about withdrawal and physical symptoms.
From other comments here I gather that some folks doubt that one could be a food addict. People have opinions often based solely on their own experiences, rather than actual knowledge. I am jealous and wish I was like those people who don't have personal experiences of food addiction.
Overweight people are often viewed as having a low socioeconomic status, as being unintelligent, dirty, and lacking self control. Let's not lie to ourselves. We judge (to some extent without even realizing it). When a fat person dresses well, has a good job, is smart, or has a salad for lunch we see the person as a fraud. I do it too, shame on me.
Foods are not just fiber, vitamins, water, and flavor. While whole foods are best for our bodies, the foods we eat in our society are usually processed to some degree and are enhanced with derivatives from other food sources.
For example: Sugar (which by definition is a drug). We take the sugar molecules out of sugar beets or sugar cane and add them to another foods to make them sweet(er). That concentrated derivative, or extract of a plant, is addictive. I bet we can all name other plant extracts that are addictive...
I'm addicted to Sugar.
It's real. It's really real. Until I realized what was happening to me I thought that I just really loved sugar (you know... straight from the bag if I couldn't find a cookie) I thought that I had no self control. I thought that I was just a "pig" and eating my emotions.
At almost 50 years old I can look back on my life and eating habits and tell you that I am a food addict. The only constant thread that weaves through my life of weight loss and gain is excess sugar and flour. It hasn't mattered if I was happy, sad, or angry. I ate them to extreme. It didn't matter what my circumstances were or how aware I was of what it did to my body.... I ate it. I couldn't get enough. I was ashamed.
Food is not my best friend. I don't have a love for cooking or baking. I forget to eat when I am busy. I appear "normal" aside from the extra pounds (that I am loosing for the last time).
Cravings are your body's way of telling you it needs something, such as protein, salt, vitamins, and carbohydrates. For me, eating sugar or flour is not controlled by a craving. My body wants them in excessive amounts so I can keep getting my "fix". Like a drug. I wake up wanting sugar. I go to bed after eating sugar and then dream of eating sweets. This is not a self-control issue.
Once I start eating them, I'm consumed by thoughts and desires of eating sugary foods, or foods containing flour.
I can't eat them AT ALL or it triggers awful binges and food orgies that last for hours or days.
I am so tired of trying to loose the same 50 pounds only to gain it back as soon as I reintroduce my old foods (because everyone around me can have just one and stop... I should be able to too, right?) . I can't be trusted to eat just a little bit. I sneak food. I eat whenever I get a chance. I always always always choose desserts, sometimes skipping meals and only eating desserts for days on end. I usually don't realize I am doing it, because of denial, and because eating is expected. I would tell people that I have a HUGE sweet tooth (politically correct understatement)... and that donuts are the perfect food (sugar and bread). I'm tired of not feeling like I can control my desire to EAT, CHEW, or TASTE... only to be unsatisified and want more and more even though I am full and physically sick.
No, I am not unintelligent. No, I am not making it up.
It's hard to change the way I have always behaved toward food, especially when those around me don't have a problem with it.
Sometimes I still want it. But, if I don't eat it at all, I have a much easier time saying 'no'.
Wow - this sounds exactly like I wrote it. Know that you definitely are not alone in struggling with this and that such addiction issues are as real as anything.
I wish there was some kind of "willpower" medicine one could take. I know exactly how to go about living a healthy lifestyle and want it so desperately, but I simply cannot control my actions no matter how hard I try. It is so frustrating.0 -
I find it hard to believe. Gluttony, now that exists0
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skinnyinnotime wrote: »I find it hard to believe. Gluttony, now that exists
Is it still considered gluttony when someone is doing it but wishingthey weren't? Idk I always thought of gluttony as when someone is indulging because they like it and want more. Not necessarily just eating a lot. Idk the actual definition though.0 -
Are we doubting the honesty of users on here who've reported their experiences with craving and longing for certain foods?
In my mind, the distinction between naming this situation of helplessly obsessing/craving/indulging in food as "addiction" or not doesn't really matter. The point is that some people find that certain foods trigger their behavior/thoughts in certain ways. Therefore, whether you're going to call it technically an addiction or not, it makes sense for these people to attempt to remove those triggers or otherwise take steps to avoid the obsess/crave/indulge/regret cycle.
As was said earlier in the thread, lots of people have this crave/indulge behavior with many different things. I remember that one thing that the DSM (manual of psychology) often says about the threshold for diagnosing certain conditions as mental illnesses is that the condition must "significantly interfere with regular functioning" or "significantly reduce quality of life" or "cause significant distress to the sufferer" or something like that. Maybe that's the threshold at which "internet addiction" or "food addiction" or whatever else should officially be called an addiction - if it significantly interferes with daily activities or causes significant distress to the person who has it.
I don't think that it diminishes the meaningfulness of the word "addiction" if someone who is truly suffering with their urges, as users here have documented, chooses to use the word "addiction" - whether or not science would call it that.0 -
skinnyinnotime wrote: »I find it hard to believe. Gluttony, now that exists
Is it still considered gluttony when someone is doing it but wishingthey weren't?
Yes.
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I don't think that it diminishes the meaningfulness of the word "addiction" if someone who is truly suffering with their urges, as users here have documented, chooses to use the word "addiction" - whether or not science would call it that.
If it doesn't really matter, then lets use the right words. If that's a problem, then clearly it matters.
This is not an addiction. If you feel you need to label this as an addiction, I think the only relevant question is...why?
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PeachyCarol wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If you are getting those kinds of responses to foods that are chemically basically identical to foods that do not result in the same cravings -- and that's how it is with almost all trigger foods that people identify, since foods really aren't all that distinctive on a chemical level -- then it has to be some combination of taste response plus the psychological meaning you place in the food. (That's it's psychological doesn't make it less real; it just suggests that maybe it's something that could be overcome if you cared to do so. Not saying you should.)
Really often, thinking you can't control yourself around a food makes it true.
White pasta is essentially identical to any other processed grain, especially wheat-based -- for example, bread. It's also not that different from most whole wheat pastas, because the difference in the amount of fiber is not particularly high. (I eat whole wheat pasta because I like it just as well usually and it has slight nutritional advantages IMO, but the effect on me is identical.) If you combine it with fat (i.e., cheese) then it becomes chemically about the same as any other combination of processed grain and fat -- bagel and cream cheese or a butter cookie or even a Kit Kat, I think. But there are always psychological meanings that foods have -- mac and cheese certainly could be a comfort food.
Anyway, who knows why one thing becomes a trigger vs. another -- contrary to the usual dogma around here, for me it's no more likely to be a carb-based food that I have trouble not overeating than something else. I think it's complicated and a real thing. I simply DON'T think it's really about the physical reaction to the food, as people will claim a reaction to, say, donuts and not cake. Thus, we aren't talking about addiction.
I don't spend a ton of time thinking about it. They created cravings I didn't want to deal with and they got eliminated.
If it were a lack of self-control, the lack of self-control would manifest itself when I ate things I liked eating. The more I liked them, the harder it would be to control myself. That just isn't the case.
It's an issue with the white bread and pasta, not with my ability to exercise self-control.
Self-control isn't always universal.
I used to be able to exercise restraint with many things, but when it came to certain things? Nope.
Lemurcat is right. If you don't have a similar reaction to a food that's essentially the same chemical/ingredient composition, you're the problem, not the pasta.
I had to admit this to myself when I realized I had no trouble stopping at 2 chocolate chip cookies, but could not help myself when it came to brownies.
Why do you think a person can have excellent self-control when it comes to foods that they love, but less control over foods that they just like? And why does that lack of self-control only kick in with two kinds of foods and only after they've been eaten?
I don't think you're right, but I'm willing to consider the possibility.
Bear in mind that I didn't actually give in and eat the stuff. I just kept craving it. So, there is self-control in that regard.0 -
So the Bob Saget, have you ever sucked feet for it school of addiction?Do you believe it's real? Why or why not?
I'm talking addiction in the sense that you can't control it and it hinders your life. Like beyond emotional eating.
I've never heard of fat people robbing stores to pay for their Little Debbie habit. Unless there is evidence of that, clearly food addiction is something different than meth or heroin addiction.
I don't see it as a particularly useful distinction though. I'm pretty sure people have been committing robbery over food for quiet some time in human history.
The biggest reason you see people committing crime for hard drugs is legal, social, and economical - while people do commit robbery to fuel alcoholism, we don't hear anywhere near as much about it. This is because
1. There's nothing illegal about adults 21+ drinking in the US. Being on drugs means you already consider yourself a criminal. Threshhold is lowered.
2. Again, being legal, alcohol addiction is treated very differently and not assumed for all alcoholics. There are functioning cocaine and heroine addicts, they don't make the news, but if someone was found out to be on them, the assumption would be any use is addiction. It is also easier to seek help for the addiction.
3. Economically, food and alcohol are both relatively cheap. Making it illegal raises the price and thus changes the economics of being an addict. One hit of cocaine should buy a month of Little Debbie's I would think, though I'd have to admit I don't have first hand experience with the price of either of those goods.0 -
This would be where the actual discussion of dopamine comes in instead of talking about the pleasure centers lighting in the brain. Dopamine is elicited more by novelty, so controlling a frequently eaten food could be easier than controlling a food that seems both delicious and interesting.PeachyCarol wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If you are getting those kinds of responses to foods that are chemically basically identical to foods that do not result in the same cravings -- and that's how it is with almost all trigger foods that people identify, since foods really aren't all that distinctive on a chemical level -- then it has to be some combination of taste response plus the psychological meaning you place in the food. (That's it's psychological doesn't make it less real; it just suggests that maybe it's something that could be overcome if you cared to do so. Not saying you should.)
Really often, thinking you can't control yourself around a food makes it true.
White pasta is essentially identical to any other processed grain, especially wheat-based -- for example, bread. It's also not that different from most whole wheat pastas, because the difference in the amount of fiber is not particularly high. (I eat whole wheat pasta because I like it just as well usually and it has slight nutritional advantages IMO, but the effect on me is identical.) If you combine it with fat (i.e., cheese) then it becomes chemically about the same as any other combination of processed grain and fat -- bagel and cream cheese or a butter cookie or even a Kit Kat, I think. But there are always psychological meanings that foods have -- mac and cheese certainly could be a comfort food.
Anyway, who knows why one thing becomes a trigger vs. another -- contrary to the usual dogma around here, for me it's no more likely to be a carb-based food that I have trouble not overeating than something else. I think it's complicated and a real thing. I simply DON'T think it's really about the physical reaction to the food, as people will claim a reaction to, say, donuts and not cake. Thus, we aren't talking about addiction.
I don't spend a ton of time thinking about it. They created cravings I didn't want to deal with and they got eliminated.
If it were a lack of self-control, the lack of self-control would manifest itself when I ate things I liked eating. The more I liked them, the harder it would be to control myself. That just isn't the case.
It's an issue with the white bread and pasta, not with my ability to exercise self-control.
Self-control isn't always universal.
I used to be able to exercise restraint with many things, but when it came to certain things? Nope.
Lemurcat is right. If you don't have a similar reaction to a food that's essentially the same chemical/ingredient composition, you're the problem, not the pasta.
I had to admit this to myself when I realized I had no trouble stopping at 2 chocolate chip cookies, but could not help myself when it came to brownies.
Why do you think a person can have excellent self-control when it comes to foods that they love, but less control over foods that they just like? And why does that lack of self-control only kick in with two kinds of foods and only after they've been eaten?
I don't think you're right, but I'm willing to consider the possibility.
Bear in mind that I didn't actually give in and eat the stuff. I just kept craving it. So, there is self-control in that regard.
I don't have it off-hand, but I recall at least one study that showed that increasing the variety of foods available to a person increases the chance they'll eat more.0 -
So the Bob Saget, have you ever sucked feet for it school of addiction?Do you believe it's real? Why or why not?
I'm talking addiction in the sense that you can't control it and it hinders your life. Like beyond emotional eating.
I've never heard of fat people robbing stores to pay for their Little Debbie habit. Unless there is evidence of that, clearly food addiction is something different than meth or heroin addiction.
I have no idea what that means.
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In the movie Half Baked, Dave Chappelle's character seeks help for marijuana addiction and Bob Saget's character mocks him saying something like "Marijuana isn't an addiction. I've sucked *feet* for coke. Have you ever sucked *feet* for marijuana?" The wording is a little different if it isn't being censored by Comedy Central.
So the Bob Saget, have you ever sucked feet for it school of addiction?Do you believe it's real? Why or why not?
I'm talking addiction in the sense that you can't control it and it hinders your life. Like beyond emotional eating.
I've never heard of fat people robbing stores to pay for their Little Debbie habit. Unless there is evidence of that, clearly food addiction is something different than meth or heroin addiction.
I have no idea what that means.
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Agree!! ^^LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »IMO it's like gluten intolerance: it exists but almost everyone who claims to have it is mistaken.
Answer your question OP, NO!!!
It's lack of self control!!
That's not really true. I believe that it's your opinion - not calling you a liar! But I think you're very wrong.
I have self-control. I can eat a little if many things and will not crave them. There won't be anything nagging at me all day if I eat, say, a Kit Kat. And I like Kit-Kats very much more than Mac n cheese.
But if I have the white pasta, it will create a craving. A real craving. I will want more and it won't stop bugging me. Even if I am busy washing the floor, not thinking about it, it will pop into my head that I should eat more of it.
I don't think it's an addiction. Wouldn't go that far.
But it isn't just a lack of control. If that were the case, then I'd crave things I really liked a lot as much as the white pasta.
@Kalikel Your problem (and perhaps the OP's) is a psychological one.
"Addiction" implies a physical problem. As senecarr and others have shown, there is no physical or hormonal activity that creates a physical need when it comes to eating erratically.
May I kindly suggest that you stop telling yourself white pasta creates a craving? You're absolving yourself of your responsibility, and letting yourself be weak by saying you do this every time.
Tell yourself you can control what you eat. Ignore the thought that says you have a craving - "Don't believe everything you think".
Log everything. If you don't want to log 500g of white pasta, don't eat 500g of white pasta. Just enjoy 100 g! You'll enjoy it more if you only eat that much.
You can do it! And I don't want to hear any excuses.
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