Running Safety
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williamwj2014 wrote: »I don't understand this thing about safety.
Probably because you're male.0 -
williamwj2014 wrote: »Guess if you let things like this hold you back, you will always be afraid to do things at the sign of threats. Your life could end at any moment outside of that park such as a drunk driver while on the road. I don't understand this thing about safety. There's a risk everywhere but that shouldn't stop you from living.
Please try not to judge a person's courage from one post. I have moved halfway across the world to a country where I didn't even speak the language and lived there alone, without fear, for over a year.
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Right. I've seen plenty of females out in open trails, on their own. Please. I guess they were scared for their life the entire time though.-1
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Are you trying to be insulting?0
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Are you that sensitive to what I'm saying? All I'm saying is that if you let fear hold you back because of what may have happened in the past, then good luck in life.0
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Since you live in NYC try finding a nice community that might have a park you could run in. A richer community is probably going to have securer areas and nicer quiet parks. You should still always be aware of your surroundings, but you can let your gard down just a little.0
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Well, I live out in the boondocks and the worst things I encounter on the trail are aggressive geese and Snakes (Copperheads). Well, so far anyway. I've also seen evidence of bear in the area too. Basically, be prepared. There are a few things I've learned to do:
- Tell somebody you're going out alone.
- Tell them where you're going
- Tell them when you expect to be back
- Always carry a fully charged cell phone. Disable any battery sucking apps before running. In most jurisdictions you aren't considered missing for 24 hrs. I run w/ my ringers muted and its hidden from view. As long as that battery is alive on that cell phone, there are technologies that can ping it and find out where it is. But time is not on your side in that regard.
- Don't run solo where there is no cell signal.
- Take self-defense courses and be prepared to use them with common sense (meaning you can't outrun a bullet). The advantage you have over an attacker in most cases is that you know the area. If you can use those self defense tactics to get away and to a populated area, go for it with gusto.
- You're probably in better physical shape than your attacker. Take the shortest route you can, handle to a populated area. Go over the river and through the woods if you have to, but get to civilization!
As you can tell by the way I've written this, I've pretty much already decided that nobody will take my freedoms away from me and I ain't going down without a fight. That's part of surviving right there.
So, as far as the taser rapist goes...as long as the taser is discharging current, he can't do anything to you either, otherwise, he'll be shocked. A taser only temporarily disables you. (Do some research on how tasers work!) You'll have opportunities for escape.
Now that I've typed all of this up, I guess the most important things are the first 5 bullets...the rest is all up to your comfort level.
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williamwj2014 wrote: »Are you that sensitive to what I'm saying? All I'm saying is that if you let fear hold you back because of what may have happened in the past, then good luck in life.
There's a difference between letting fear hold you back and taking some precautions for safety. Did she say she was going to stop running because this park wasn't safe? No, she did not.0 -
williamwj2014 wrote: »Right. I've seen plenty of females out in open trails, on their own. Please. I guess they were scared for their life the entire time though.
Have you read the responses?! Most women are afraid and do it anyway. We are taught to be afraid. We are taught to see victims as having made some mistake that if we study and learn from we can avoid making.
OP, my comment was in support of you going back and enjoying something you enjoyed before others told you to be afraid. Don't let the rapist take something from you before he has even touched you.
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Thank you. I would not have been concerned if it weren't for the explicit warnings of people who have been running there longer than I've lived in this neighborhood plus the existence of a specific predator who targets people doing exactly what I am doing.
I hear you above about running in nice neighborhoods. However, I don't think you can get much nicer than Forest Hills, Forest Hills Gardens, etc.0 -
Maybe post something on craigslist that you are looking for a furry running buddy and would be happy to run someone's dog at a particular time every day. I don't know. Maybe if you offered to meet a person for coffee and meet them and their dog in the park they would feel comfortable with this. If it was me, my only concern would be trusting the person not to steal my beloved fur baby...if you could figure out a way to make a person feel secure that is not a risk I know I would be all for it. I'm sure there is a way to do this. Maybe offer to pay for them to get a background check on you or something. I'm sure not all dog owners would be as protective as me. I'm sure there are plenty of people that would take a stranger up on that offer with little questions asked, especially with your story about your fear.0
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williamwj2014 wrote: »Are you that sensitive to what I'm saying? All I'm saying is that if you let fear hold you back because of what may have happened in the past, then good luck in life.
You are, in fact, being insulting then. You respond by again judging me and accusing me of being "sensitive."
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Well, I live out in the boondocks and the worst things I encounter on the trail are aggressive geese and Snakes (Copperheads). Well, so far anyway. I've also seen evidence of bear in the area too. Basically, be prepared. There are a few things I've learned to do:
- Tell somebody you're going out alone.
- Tell them where you're going
- Tell them when you expect to be back
- Always carry a fully charged cell phone. Disable any battery sucking apps before running. In most jurisdictions you aren't considered missing for 24 hrs. I run w/ my ringers muted and its hidden from view. As long as that battery is alive on that cell phone, there are technologies that can ping it and find out where it is. But time is not on your side in that regard.
- Don't run solo where there is no cell signal.
- Take self-defense courses and be prepared to use them with common sense (meaning you can't outrun a bullet). The advantage you have over an attacker in most cases is that you know the area. If you can use those self defense tactics to get away and to a populated area, go for it with gusto.
- You're probably in better physical shape than your attacker. Take the shortest route you can, handle to a populated area. Go over the river and through the woods if you have to, but get to civilization!
As you can tell by the way I've written this, I've pretty much already decided that nobody will take my freedoms away from me and I ain't going down without a fight. That's part of surviving right there.
So, as far as the taser rapist goes...as long as the taser is discharging current, he can't do anything to you either, otherwise, he'll be shocked. A taser only temporarily disables you. (Do some research on how tasers work!) You'll have opportunities for escape.
Now that I've typed all of this up, I guess the most important things are the first 5 bullets...the rest is all up to your comfort level.
Thanks! I considered getting a cattle prod to carry like my mom did when she lived in a bad area in the 70s. I will do my research.
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A female running alone on a trail is not a good idea, I would be totally discourage that idea, even if there wasn’t a taser rapist at large. The same with running at night.
Seek out running groups or a running partner, stick to well lighted and traveled running courses, or use an indoor track or a treadmill. It is a cold, hard world out there, it isn’t fair that you can’t just run wherever you wish, but unfortunately that is the reality of it.0 -
demoiselle2014 wrote: »williamwj2014 wrote: »Guess if you let things like this hold you back, you will always be afraid to do things at the sign of threats. Your life could end at any moment outside of that park such as a drunk driver while on the road. I don't understand this thing about safety. There's a risk everywhere but that shouldn't stop you from living.
Please try not to judge a person's courage from one post. I have moved halfway across the world to a country where I didn't even speak the language and lived there alone, without fear, for over a year.
I have traveled alone in foreign countries, etc.., and I won't run in secluded/wooded parks in urban areas at all. It sucks, but I've heard enough stories to be uncomfortable/nervous the whole time, even if I did think it was safe. If your local running people warned you about it, I wouldn't do it.
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A female running alone on a trail is not a good idea, I would be totally discourage that idea, even if there wasn’t a taser rapist at large. The same with running at night.
Seek out running groups or a running partner, stick to well lighted and traveled running courses, or use an indoor track or a treadmill. It is a cold, hard world out there, it isn’t fair that you can’t just run wherever you wish, but unfortunately that is the reality of it.
Seems a bit alarmist. There's a spot somewhere between full on panic attack being reasonably cautious0 -
I am a almost victim of being dead. Not from rape but armed robbery at a gas station pump with a gun held to my head. This is because I was held at gun point (not a joke and this is a real life story)... while my car door was open with me sitting in the car... I was getting out of the car and bam... a person with a gun shoved me back in the car and they got in the car and I was robbed in a matter of seconds..
This happened in 2013. I could have been a stastic on the news and I could have live my life in total fear and give every person walking down the street or stranger all my power, not so... I got stronger after a couple of weeks of calming down from this experience.
I now run in several different areas, and I still buy gas without fear.
Since this, I started my journey for better fitness and health and this includes running.. Not to go into specifics, I lived my life in fear for a short while and then I decided to take my power back... I can say that a man really does not want to mess with me on the street, or sneak up behind me...
But my point, don't let the news scare you.. do not let the "I am a woman so I must live my life in fear" stigma keep you from continuring to live.
1) If this place is considered dangerous (period) do not go to that area, no matter if it is so beautiful that every other place is just too ugly to run on it.
2) Be smart, be mindful, be alert and even arm your self with either your own strength or a little apparatus called pepper spray and MOST OF ALL YOUR OWN FEET..
3) Life is a risk... period... Getting in your own car, being in someone else's car, riding the bus, the train, and airplane, even walking to the mail box... anything can happen to anyone at anytime... Life is a constant risk, arming your self with knowledge and the arsenal you need to protect your self is all you need and of course, tell people where you when you feel the need...
I have this joke with my husband that if I come up missing, the paper delivery man, or the Tuesday garbage man all know I am on the streets at a certain time of the morning... not really a joke but it gives some light heartedness to my experience..
PS: That rapist could have moved on to another running area or even go from one area to another... who knows...
It is your choice to keep running there or move to another place...just be smart and if it does not feel right, than change course..
Good luck to you and happy running... don't give that up..0 -
demoiselle2014 wrote: »It doesn’t matter if you are raped if just the threat of it makes you retreat from living your life. When I was preparing for a solo trip, it was the unspoken and sometimes spoken fear that I would be raped. We don’t make a woman take a man with her; we just keep her in fear so she doesn’t want to venture out alone. The joys of being a woman…taught to be fearful and that strength is masculine and ugly. For the record, I was not harmed on my trip. Although, I was constantly reminded of all of the dangers and threats from people who meant well.
It's strange for me, I never was concerned in any of my adventures or travels before. Not did I feel concerned when I was jogging in this park. But now I do have a bad feeling.
I believe that women are blessed with intuitive abilities that most men either don't have or simply ignore. If you have a bad feeling about that place you should go elsewhere or run with a group.0 -
OP wrote> But now I do have a bad feeling,
Go with your gut on this. Talk to your running group about other trails/parks that might be in your area.
Syrupspew: Not all women are "taught to be fearful and that strength is masculine and ugly". We raised our daughter the exact opposite of this and gave her the tools to be able to protect herself if need be (karate classes, weapons training, etc.). She has blossomed into quite a beautiful woman, travels alone, and does not walk around afraid of life. I guess its all in your perspective.0 -
What is galling is the assumption that being concerned about one aspect of safety must mean that a person is in general fearful about life. It is upsetting to come to the conclusion that one must curtail one's desired activities for the sake of safety . . . but people must make these choices on some scale every day.0
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Since the park is not busy with little visibility, I would definitely find another place to run. It just isn't worth it: running with mace, no headphones, hyper-alert, and the risk something could go wrong would completely ruin the entire run and put you in unnecessary danger.
I belong to a few running groups, but run by myself most times. It is nice to have routes planned out (and checked for safety!), runners in front and behind you, etc. Don't feel like you have to be BFFs with everyone there - everyone has their own goals about what the group does for them and many are there for a quick pre-run chat and the planned route.
This. You'll get a safe run in, but you don't have to chat it up with everybody. Being an introvert also doesn't mean you don't like people or can't make friends. You just do these things more slowly. You might find a running buddy or two in the group that you can run with, once you get to know people. I run in a state park (forest) in Oregon and feel lucky that it is so heavily used that I can run alone. Still, I prefer to run with my sister (how lucky is that?)
Give the group a go. Who knows, you might make a friend!0 -
If running alone in a more secluded park isn't comfortable for you, don't do it. We run for fitness and *fun*, right? I certainly find a run less fun when my anxiety level is high, which happens even to me - a guy - once in a while. One run I was convinced I spotted cougar tracks leading from a stream crossing... and they were still damp on a warm day. Anxiety jumped from zero to high, run suddently not so much fun.
Running with partners or a running group can be great fun and educational as well. Often organized groups also have speaker-nights and other benefits. Check with your local running speciality shops and community centres - they'll have a list of groups. There's almost always a group and pace group for everyone.
Meanwhile... run in the busier park.0 -
The other safety precaution that hasn't been mentioned yet is don't run the same route at the same time every day/week/whatever. If someone notices your habits he can wait for you; if you go at random times or take a different route, he can't.0
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beemerphile1 wrote: »Being male I imagine that I am much safer to start with.
Statistically no, the highest reported incidences of interpersonal violence are amongst, admittedly younger, males.
Similarly the higher incidences of sexual violence are where a victim knows the attacker.
There is a significant degree of reporting bias that creates a perception of higher risk.
That said the fear is a result of a perceived level of risk, something that is heavily influenced by reporting bias.
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williamwj2014 wrote: »Guess if you let things like this hold you back, you will always be afraid to do things at the sign of threats. Your life could end at any moment outside of that park such as a drunk driver while on the road. I don't understand this thing about safety. There's a risk everywhere but that shouldn't stop you from living.
As a young male you are probably most t risk of some form of violence than anyone else commenting on this, however that doesn't mean that the originators concern isn't reasonable based on the information she has available.
We all make our own decisions about the risks that we're prepared to take, and the risks that we're not. Where I am at the moment there is a 6km forested trail that I'll personally do four or five rounds of in contrast to going out for a comparable length run on nearby roads. I'm prepared to put up with a bit of boredom to reduce the risk of getting run down. The originator may be prepared to run the risk of getting run down, rather than run the same trail. It's narrow, fields of view are limited so it's challenging to develop situational awareness.
Societally women have a much higher perceived risk than men. Whilst the evidence doesn't generally support the suggestion that something like the described situation is much higher risk than anything else, there is a very common understanding that it is higher risk. It's reasonable to ask the question.
What I'd also observe is that you are pretty much also in the demographic that would be more likely to be perpetrator.
It's always worth looking at something from the perspective of another before opining in such an obnoxious way.0 -
thugs getting into scuffles about who is on who's turf has little to do with your typical jogger. I think beemer is right that males present a bit more intimidating target for any would-be attacker.MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Statistically no, the highest reported incidences of interpersonal violence are amongst, admittedly younger, males.beemerphile1 wrote: »Being male I imagine that I am much safer to start with.
Similarly the higher incidences of sexual violence are where a victim knows the attacker.
There is a significant degree of reporting bias that creates a perception of higher risk.
That said the fear is a result of a perceived level of risk, something that is heavily influenced by reporting bias.
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^ This. I grew up in a super-rural area, next to a national forest, where crime was very low. My estimation of relative risk tells me that in terms of *actual* danger, I would have to rank running places like this (more to less likely to get harmed):
1. Roadside running (could get hit by a car or bike).
2. Trail in rural national forest (could twist an ankle and get isolated in the middle of nowhere, for example, and it could be ages before someone finds me).
3. Running in a urban forested park where there is an active rapist (Even if this rapist strikes again, it's not likely to be me).
4. Running in an urban forested park where there is NO current active rapist.
In actuality, I felt safer in this park than I did along the streets until the running group warned me away.
I know the statistical likelihood of me getting picked out by the taser rapist is very, very small. The problem is that the potential consequences are very, very large. One ends up weighing one's personal freedom to do anything anytime against the amount of harm one could experience. For example, this is perhaps the first time in recent years that I have stopped and thought that maybe what I was doing wasn't safe. If I were attacked, would I be able to recapture *that* sense of safety in my day to day life anytime soon? Is the trade off of running in that particular park alone (which I loved) worth the risk that I could get raped and get an STD, or pregnant?
On top of that, I know that if I were to keep running in this park early in the morning and did get attacked, there are plenty of people who would wonder why I was foolish enough to be doing that.0 -
thugs getting into scuffles about who is on who's turf has little to do with your typical jogger. I think beemer is right that males present a bit more intimidating target for any would-be attacker.
Unfortunately the statistics for the type of situation being described are so minimal that they're not statistically meaningful.
The originator has already identified that there have been something like two reported incidents in at least 4, possibly 5 years.
It's rather the nature of crime risk analysis that we don't know why there have been no reported incidents for 2 years, or why there were no reported incidents for two years before that. Regardless, we're still talking about a perceived risk that is far in excess of what the evidence would suggest the actual risk is.
Even if we go onto the second point I made, around the relationships between victims and perpetrators of sexual violence, the residual risk to the originator appears to be negligible. Note that some assessments suggest that the balance in unreported sexual violent incidents would make that residual risk even smaller. Incidents where the perpetrator are known to the victim are even less likely to be reported.
I'd also observe that the least reported example would be male rape where the proportion of reported incidents is so negligible that it would be dwarved by the originally described situation.
It's always difficult to discuss perceived risk, because one wouldn't want to suggest that having the fear is wrong. It's a fully understandable fear, particularly given an even cursory review of crime reporting and related behaviours.
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demoiselle2014 wrote: »On top of that, I know that if I were to keep running in this park early in the morning and did get attacked, there are plenty of people who would wonder why I was foolish enough to be doing that.
And this, culturally normalised misogyny and victim blaming, itself contributes to the problem.
100% of rapes are caused by rapists not victims, of either gender.
More saddening is the number of women who become apologists for rapists by taking just this position; asking for it, of course it was a risk, wearing those pants etc.
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To be clear, there were, I believe, six or so reported rapes and attempted rapes this park against joggers by this particular rapist, who hides by the trails in the woods, waits for lone women joggers, and tasers his victims. The first victims were attacked, but the rapist got flustered when they fought back. The last two or so, he'd gotten better/less fearful, and he succeeded in tasering and raping the women despite their fighting back. He was attacking women of all ages, from teenager to 70s.
There was a cluster of attacks in 2011, and then a period of two years when there was quiet, then another cluster of attacks in 2013, and now another two year period of quiet. The police believe that between 2011 and 2013, the rapist was living in another city, and then moved back to this area. He was never caught. It is unclear whether he's permanently gone from the area.
It was the pattern of escalating violence and the gaps in the attack history that concerned me.0
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